Topic: How will games be different on a new console?

[recoba]

I just recently purchased a gamecube.  The last system I owned was a snes.  (I've been very busy in school for years)  What i noticed with Mario was that of course its a massive change from super mario world on my snes but there is nothing different from the game on the n64.  Sure the storyline and such.  But the N64 and SNES are totally different.

Same with Zelda on N64 and the new system etc.

So on the new gamecube does anyone see anything revolutionary happening for games like mario metroid zelda etc??  Or will there just be a barely marginal improvement in graphics etc, like is the case with the N64 and gamecube?

[steve]

mr. M has stated that the mario game that  will revelutionize games like mario 64 did will has yet to be released but it will come to light in the near future, and the next consoles will probably have incredible graphics because they have to compete with computers.

[ThePerm]

having seen games liek half-life 2 and Doom 3 for the pc and thinking of moored law and how technology leaped in the last generations. Im going to say that it will be very common to see games with that level of graphics. Sure right now those graphics are the high end, but in a few years that stuff wont be hard(expensive) to pull off. The systems that will be released will be a bit more powerful then the video cards that are out now(i doubt by much..cost vs power). Now you hear whiney bitches talking about how devlopment prices will go up because there will be more lines of code to be needed blah blah blah. Heres a solution.

There is so much power behind the system that you should have ebnough power to make all games look beutiful. But how do you program several games that all look pretty without spending a gazillian man hours writing the code?

You use the same bloody engine!

Huh? Ok, you know you wonder why alot of people have never used the same engine traditionally. Well the answer is quite simple. Different Genres push hardware differently. Lets take a fighting game for instance and compare it to a platformer game. Fighting games are known for having models with insane number of polygons and high detail textures on the charactyers. But whats this? The levels usually look like crap. Now we look at a platformer. The charactyer has adequate polygons. The character doesnt look bad..he just dopesnt look as good as he does in themanual..he's just not as detailed or smooth. The water looks good, but the levels don't have great textures. You of coarse know which game im talking about. What these games are doing is trying to make a balance. They dont want terrible pop up and they want it to run at a decent framerate. Some sacrifices had to be made.

now with a next gen system these sacrifices dont need to be mnade. You could program one breathtaking 3d engine and use it for all games. The only thing you would need to do is change the controls, rules, and physics. The game uses relatively the same code but appears to the gamer to be a completely different universe.

another thign that will save time is using the same textures in some games, and some of the same objects and models. With a realistic game and anotjher realistc game a brick texture will always look like a brick texture. Solution use the same brick texture. f coarse the levels will be different, but some things that are inside them may be the same. Also say you want a breakable pot in one game, and you need another in another game. use the same pot.

also, lets look at this generation. There are alot of models that can be carried over from this generation to the next. with n64 the models were too low poly gon..to blury..to be used again. Alot of models are refined now and can be re-used. Also fmvs....it will be possible for someone like say Square Enix to take a model from say Final Fantasy 9's fmvs and insert them into a game.

anyonbe who thinks it will be more difficult to dev games in the future is not thinking Frugally. If anythign costs will shrink because the resources will double. Optimization will be less important.

[KDR_11k]

Sharing engines? Haha, good one!
Seriously, if say, EA, produces an engine they spend thousands of USD on, they aren't going to share it with anyone outside EA. In fact, nothing will be shared between different dev houses.
The systems definitely won't push hipoly models like those in CG movies, but characters with the detail of a fighting game char will become possible in more and more genres. You barely need more, using more polies (or even normal maps) also means more dev time. Hm, I think I'll try modeling an 8-10k char once...

[ThePerm]

no ea wouldnt share its engines with outside dv houses..maybe amongst teams. Im sure some companies will make lots of money licensing out their engines(something factor 5 should do right now)

heres an example Nintendo makes an engine
Nintendo uses this engine for Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Star fox, F-zero, Pikmin 3, Earth bound, Super Smash Bros 3, Fire Emblem, Wars, etc. Or whatever else. Thier doping a similar thing now. Nintendo always used to program their own engines..but as of now their using middle-ware(alias wavefront) soemthign theyve never done before(may also be the reason why Ninty aint pushing systems liek we expect..but its cheaper and faster)

anyways if people like midway or acclaim were smart they would make one super powerful engine(i mean their own custom engine..you know THE MIDWAY ENGINE and the ACCLAM engine written in assemby language with tons of effects that contains alot of customization and really pushes the system. To do this..what you could do is instead
of dividing all your programmers into several different games(spreading yourself thin)
you put them together and make an engine team. When the engine is awesome and super...then you divide them again so that they can make modifications on each individual game.

also you take that 8-10 polygon character and change his face and his clothes al ittle..even just its hair color...its a different character. Take the resident evil models for Barry and Chris..their exactly alike except ones stomach and face has been stretched. Theres and added beard..and the textures have only been slightly modified from green to red.

there is also a reaosn why i mention final fantasy 9..their not so realistic liek the fmv's in ten but their reasonable...the characters arent too high poly...more processing power was spent on making the effects then the models. Also Toy Story 1 and 2 could be done on next generation systems in real time thanks to shaders and the ability to push more poly's (see half life 2 engine demonstaration on file planet..its using the same type of technology in real time and looks alot better) Now somehting like final fantasy 10's fmvs or final fantasy the movies(damn square and their amazing cg) could not be done. But when you look at things like the  toy story movies and think about how graphics will be comparable to that(real phot realism...not buzzword photrealism) then you will realise that we have finally reached a pinacle.

if atari/oddysee/coleco/etc were the start of the 2d era followed by nes/sms and then followed by snes and genesis.  Then n64 was the atari age(things are 3d shit), gcn/ps2/xbx(things look alot better), refinement or at least the stretch is one step before reifnement.

[Grey Ninja]

Well, I'm not really in the mood for an in-depth discussion of game engines right now.

Anyways, you bring up a good point, and I agree with you whole heartedly.  There really isn't a good reason for upgrading the consoles yet, as the ONLY improvement we are likely to see will be an improvement in graphics.  yay.  I personally am happy with the GameCube.  The graphics look nice, and the console can do just about anything in terms of gameplay.  You can make any sort of game that you want at this moment in time.  Changing consoles right now is only going to set the industry back, as they will have to write new code, and will have less time to innovate as they will be learning about new hardware.

Nevertheless, changing consoles in 2005 is the smart thing to do from a marketting perspective, as there are millions of idiots out there who only care about graphics.  It's truly sad, but it's the truth.

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

I was going to start a topic about the future of game engines.

My latest PC Gamer magazine had an interesting quote from John Carmack:
"There's a real chance the next-generation rendering engine will be a stable, mature technology that lasts for a long time.  Programmers will move from being engine coders to technical director in the Pixar style."

Hmmmmmmmmm....did he talk himself out of a job after Doom III?

[ThePerm]

and thats what i mean. There will be no serious need to work on the graphcis as they design the games. So alot of the things that held games back in terms of devlopment time will be gone. Games would come out faster except they can focus more on the quality and the devlopment time will stay the same. It wont be uncommon for even a small studio to make an outstanding game. When i hear rockstar is working on gta for a next generaiton ps3 then it makes me think of how sweet it will be. Sure it will be pretty(unlike gta3) but dma is very creative and because they will not need to focus on makign hte graphics look good then the gameplay will be the most important aspect of devlopment.

For every game all the little things that you were unable to do in other games that you can do in newer games are things that really intrigue me. Have you ever played a game and saw somethign in the level that would solve your puzzle three times faster then that what was the actual coarse of solving the puzzle? Well i hope some games will have that and allow you to solve the same puzzle in multiple ways...logically.

[kennyb27]

Perm, I agree wholeheartedly with your theory on game engines.  And to logically follow the steps you presented, I have one question (it may even be rhetorical).

"if atari/oddysee/coleco/etc were the start of the 2d era followed by nes/sms and then followed by snes and genesis. Then n64 was the atari age(things are 3d), gcn/ps2/xbx(things look alot better), refinement or at least the stretch is one step before reifnement. "

Then what?  I mean, the obvious step from 2D was 3D.  But following the next generation of hardware, (assuming the industry doesn't crash) what would be next?

Ah, well, just a thought.

[ThePerm]

i suppose we'll be using the next generation(hopefully) of hardware for quite a while. I beleive this(the generation we are currently in) wasa very short generation by virtue of the unevenness of competition.
PS2 is seriously underpowered...but because there are more ps2 owners most the games are made on ps2 and then ported. They remain looking like trash. This holds back gamecube and xbox. Next gen your going to have 3 systems with equal(indistinguishable differences) power.

I can see the next generation lasting for a very long time...but whats next you ask? Online, connectability, editability(games that let you make your own games). It is very important that the next generation consoles will be expandable. By virtue of the power of the systems i cant see any of the three going under. You could always devlop a megahit with advertising and a new gimmick to bring the console back if there was any problems. Price will go down too, but i think it will be a while before new consoles replaces these next sets(damn im talking about a generation after the next..damn it must stop)

but what im thinking is these new consoles will last a long time and peripherals and software will drive them.  

[greenwisher]

"...these new consoles will last a long time and peripherals and software will drive them."

Perm, I agree that software will be a huge issue. Like it's not already. But peripherals? By that are you thinking hardware expansion or interactivity/connectivity hardware? I miss some of the goofy stuff nintendo used to come out with for hardware. What happened to my light gun? & "ROB"- Bring him back N! Back in some crazy way...like he plugs into a port and plays multiplayer games as another player making sick comments while he kicks your @ss around the screen. :-D

[KDR_11k]

You know how the games on the next gen will be different? NOT AT ALL. So, they got their engine done and save time... What will they do with it? Polish the game? Bwahaha, good one! They'll ship it and start the next one, mo' games mo' money! Don't expect any radical changes because the hardware is faster. The attitude of the publishers is what needs the update, not the hardware. Innovation isn't limited by the hardware, it's limited by the will of the publishers to take a "risk" and make a game that's not tried-and-tested. That's why the PC is flooded by FPS and RTS games.

[HolyPaladin]

I'm so sick of FPS titles.  The only difference between N64 and the present list of consoles is that the graphics are prettier.  We have more polygons, better textures and so forth, but that is just taking what was done before and beefing it up.  SNES to N64 was a dramatic difference because of the leap from 2D to true 3D, but we are not taking such leaps now, just as we did not between NES and SNES.  SNES was to NES as Gamecube/PS2/Xbox is to N64.  In all likelihood, the next wave of consoles will continue this trend, being more of the same but simply more powerful, cranking out more polygons, more detailed textures, and with a few more graphic bells and whistles.

[ThePerm]

well with more realistic graphics you can do a bit more thigns with gameplay..has anyone played shenmue? Well there was htis interesting little bit of gameplay that let you pick up and look at every item you could see. Imagine this in a residnet evil style game...and also make the world have destructable physics. So you cant cary much?...then chop a door down and get a rope and drag the door with tons of items on it.

hopefully all ocnsoles next gen will have a hard drive. With a hard drive you can do much more with level saves and it gives you the rewriteability that 64dd promised.  

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

In Shenmue, you could pick up and look at every item you could see, but not all.  I don't recall being able to pick up a toy capsule vending machine!

[ThePerm]

it was nailed down to the ground so vandals couldnt take it.....and there were some notebooks in the drawer in the Ryo's house that you couldnt pick up..but aside from that you could pick nearly anything up. I hate it in games where you see all these items around that could be very usefull that you cant use or pick up.

[Nintendo Gamecube]

I may sound a bit crazy but I want the trend to revert back to 2D games...You may be asking me why...well elt me explain.

Imagine playing a 1000 level Mario 2D game....Each with unique and logical puzzles....Just imagine the hours of gaming you could spend on one game. Developing would be easier cuz the graphics are 2D...Viewtiful Joe could be used as an example (but that is still 3D in one sense).

I purely look for gameply in a game. I could give a rats ass about graphics. Imagine playing a 128 player network of Doom (or any other FPS) in 2D graphics. Imagine having a roryal rumble in a wrestling game with 30 wrestlers. I really hope some developer out there can grasp the idea that more polygons does not equal great games.

[ThePerm]

oh yeah i never got to that but i was thinking that...2d could be so awesome...even this generation..i you took a bunch of high resolution prerendered backrounds and combined htem with pre rendered 2.5 d sprites..you would have some snazzy graphics.

imagien that 2d mario looking all snazzy with graphoics liek thta...you could justify being 2d because the graphics would be so damn sick(i love 2d, but the mainstream hates it, if the graphics were like ultra they would love it) In fact if you pushed it i bet the mainstream would think 3d mario was a failure mistake(even though it sold a gazillion coppies) and that that oldskool was dee kool and teh nooskool is dee bomb...
la manistarema isa de fikala

[Nintendo Gamecube]

Yes, finally someone who agrees....

And being one who knows so much about this topic...it could be possible to make a 100 level 2D Mario game on the next gen of consoles, right?

[ThePerm]

maybe...depends on how good the levels turn out....

[Round Eye]

I miss 2D as well.  That is one reason that I am loving my GBP right now (not literally, the slot is too small).  A 2D mario would be sweet and sounds like Mario128 might be  

A 2D online multiplayer battle game would be so cool, with a top down view like Xenphobe and a bunch of different weapons.  With a houndred + people running around, you could do actual war sims and have huge battles.  Man the untapped potential of 2D running on a powerfull console is underused to the MAX.  Hopefully games like VJ and MARIO128 will bring back a resurgance of creative 2D.