Topic: Nintendo systems old and new

[azeke]

The second one I completely disagree with, but maybe that's just the fact that the quarter century I've spent playing the game has trained me how to handle it better.

E-EXACTLY!. Twenty five years to learn how to walk, run and jump properly in a game.

I just booted up SMB3 to re-check my feelings.

Very soon i rediscovered again that the "right" way to jump in this game is pressing forward, jumping, and then pressing BACK in air to minimize the momentum you gained from jumping.

I have to fight viciously the game physics with literally each movement you do, be it running or jumping.

I am not calling the game bad, but it is deeply, deeply flawed and is objectively worse than any modern Mario platformer.

I totally agree it was fair for it's time but it doesn't hold up for someone who plays today for the first time. Someone like me.

[NWR_insanolord]

The only way it's *objectively* worse than modern Mario games is because it lacked a save feature, which pretty much every re-release of the game has rectified. I'm sorry that you suck at the game and can't enjoy it as much as most people, but I severely disagree with any attempt to call it "deeply, deeply flawed."

[azeke]

But it is. I showed my argumentation why it is that way. You conceded to all of them and instead of counter-points you wrote how you much love playing it since you were a kid. Again and again proving my point.

I am not trying to rile up anyone or kill your sacred cows, the point of this thread is a comparison between new and old Nintendo.

As a person who can see it with a fresh eye, being completely oblivious to console gaming most of my life, i can clearly see that the idea of "new Nintendo" being worse than "Nintendo of old" holds no water.

[Khushrenada]

Ha ha ha. Super Mario Bros. 3 is so bad, Nintendo is trying not to release it on the Wii U virtual console to hide their shame and embarressment at how deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply flawed it is.

On a real note, I just want to say that I'm sure the creater of this thread is happy with the results. A thread for everyone to post what got them into gaming or what they like about Nintendo has immediately turned into a chance for everyone to offer their favorite complaints about past Nintendo games. (Hashtag: BlameIanSane) I love it! More fun than the funhouse.Although, since Marvel Movie Fan has participated a bit in the arguing of games, I don't think he's really against it.

Now allow me to chime in on a different point. Regarding Insanolord's complaint of SMW's levels being too long, that's an odd complaint to me. Their length seems just right to me and from my emotional memory, their length feels much like Mario Bros. 2, 3 and NSMB games. I do admit that some Mario Bros. 3 levels were definitely shorter but back when I used to play the game on Super Mario All-Stars the majority of the levels felt like the same length in my mind. (Not that I was comparing them at the time.) But maybe it is the way I play. I like to poke around and look all over levels and search for secrets.

However, if you want to talk long levels, then I would direct you to SMW2: Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Island DS. I really noticed it playing SMW2: YI again from the Ambassador games. Of course, I had to beat it 100% but once I finished it, I said to myself, that's it. I don't need to play this game again. Levels can just seem to drag out in in.

As for Azeke's claim that the NSMB series requires no power-up's to complete it, the first thing I immediately thought of was Mini-Mario from NSMB DS. In that game to access World 4 and World 7, you have to defeat the World 2 and World 5 boss with Mini-Mario respectively. Although you can access World 7 from a cannon warp in World 4, you still need Mini-Mario to get to World 4. So, power-up required. Plus, if you do want to complete the game by getting all Star coins, you will for sure need the power-ups to access some of them. Notably, the Mini-Mario powerup and the Mega-Mario for a few. I remember having to go to one level to get a power-up so that I could go back to another level and get the Star Coin.

[azeke]

I never said you can get EVERYTHING with regular Mario. Certainly there will some hidden levels that are unavailable otherwise.

But nothing like the complete bullshit that SMB3 pulls where not knowing that i HAVE to use power-ups completely stops the entire game.

[Oblivion]

Khush, I'd rather have people be objective and talk about flaws in these supposed masterpieces then blindingly follow their rose-tinted glasses like most Nintendo fanboys.

[NWR_insanolord]

But it is. I showed my argumentation why it is that way. You conceded to all of them and instead of counter-points you wrote how you much love playing it since you were a kid. Again and again proving my point.

I am not trying to rile up anyone or kill your sacred cows, the point of this thread is a comparison between new and old Nintendo.

As a person who can see it with a fresh eye, being completely oblivious to console gaming most of my life, i can clearly see that the idea of "new Nintendo" being worse than "Nintendo of old" holds no water.

One last point before I give up fighting with your straw man argument: pretty much nothing you've said is an objective flaw with the game. I am in no way arguing that you are wrong to dislike the game, in the same way that I and others aren't wrong to like it. This is a subjective matter, and arguing that anyone liking the game does so purely because of nostalgia is extremely obnoxious.

[Khushrenada]

Khush, I'd rather have people be objective and talk about flaws in these supposed masterpieces then blindingly follow their rose-tinted glasses like most Nintendo fanboys.

Hey. that's alright with me. My point was just that the opening lines of this thread were:

What got you into Nintendo gaming, what are your best/worst Nintendo moments, memories, and favorite, least favorite games?


I am genuinely curios because lately it seems like most Nintendo fans are just fans of the company and have either forgotten what they used to like or what got them into Nintendo in the first place.

But I guess since it was rather broad and undefined, people could post what they wanted. I just didn't think the ensuing conversation was what had been meant by the creator of this thread, especially when I read through his whole post and it's tone and content.

Tally-ho!

[NWR_insanolord]

An NWR forum thread going off on an unrelated, fairly frustrating tangent? The hell, you say?

[Khushrenada]

I know, right? Where's the community manager to better manage the community and keep threads on point? So frustrating!

[Fatty The Hutt]

I know, right? Where's the community manager to better manage the community and keep threads on point? So frustrating!

Zing!

[Fatty The Hutt]

azeke, I love you man and I am no huge fan of SMB3 either but I gotta say, the main gripe you keep harping on about is that the game makes you use powerups. So what? The fact that you prefer to play the game as only small Mario and not ever use powerups is irrelevant to whether the game has good design or mechanics.
If it is true the game makes you use powerups (and sometimes it does) I am not seeing how this matters. It provides you the powerup and then you use it. Getting the powerup is a little puzzle and that is part of the game's design and, when you solve it, I assume the designers hope you will find that fun and satisfying. If not, well, that is unfortunate but also subjective. Opinions vary. But objectively poor game design it is not.


Now, your gripe with the controls, I can see that being frustrating to have to press forward and then always press back to slow momentum or "brake". I am not convinced everyone plays this way nor that one needs to play this way but I can see better why you wouldn't like it. But even that gripe is subjective. Many others seem to get along with the controls just fine.


The most interesting part of this discussion for me has been to observe that you, of all folks, find the game frustrating and difficult. You are great about posting what you are playing and, man, you play some hard games. You also play not-so-hard games to a crazy level of completion that, in  the end, is difficult to achieve. So your frustration with SMB3 seems surprising to me.

[NWR_insanolord]

It's not my job to keep things on topic. Lord knows that if it were I wouldn't have time in my life for anything else.

[Khushrenada]

I know, right? Where's the community manager to better manage the community and keep threads on point? So frustrating!

Zing!

The people have spoken. They've said Zing! No one wants to hear a real counterarguement now. It's not my job to worry about the details for every joke. Lord knows that if I did, I wouldn't have time in my life for anything else.

[Mop it up]

Well this thread took an interesting turn.

I can think of two stages in SMB3 that require use of a powerup to complete. Both of these levels are optional, in that there's a different level on the map that you can choose if you want to progress without beating the powerup level. So I see them more like the Star Coins in the recent games, they're just optional challenges if you want to 100% the game, but they're not required for normal progression.

[azeke]

Getting the powerup is a little puzzle

Getting the power-up is not a problem, power-ups themselves are not a problem. I love power-ups (some of them, sometimes).

the main gripe you keep harping on about is that the game makes you use powerups

Again, you're misunderstanding my point. My main gripe is that after getting through a game 70% in, i was suddenly facing a maze level that i couldn't get through. I ran around it for two days and couldn't figure out what am i supposed to do. The fact that it required me to use power-ups that i didn't used before is just an incidental detail.

It's the worst feeling in the world when you have to google the walkthrough for Mario/Zelda game. You feel like the dumbest person in the world while doing so and somehow feel even dumber and sometimes cheated once you're shown the solution.

Same as Zelda games. That's why Zelda 1 is still my favourite because it has no bullshit puzzles that stop my progress completely. All other Zelda games i played had that BS all over them and that's why it takes me years (literally!) to finish them.

I am okay with puzzles. I can deal with them, i almost beat Jelly no Puzzle (probably the hardest block puzzle game there is, i'm at the very last level there). But i need to know the rules and i need to know that this is a puzzle i am facing. I had no idea that this is a "puzzle" to begin with when i was running left and right pointlessly in that maze.

La Mulana has even more bullshitty puzzles, BUT!.. The game is very non-linear and not figuring out one particular will not stop your progress -- you can go elsewhere and try tackling other part.

It's unfortunate that you think this thread turned into venomous hatefest (i abhor those). I can certainly assure i have no venom in my heart.

We, fans, should spread LOVE not HATE. As cheesy as it sound, it's true.

Oh and Yoshi's Island is amazing. I remember playing it on my work, among dozen of my colleagues (almost) crying of the levels of awesome and not even giving a ****. It was that awesome. I had similar experience with christmas level in Elite Beat Agents, only then i was bawling, again it was worth it.

[smallsharkbigbite]

Azeke, you have some valid criticisms, but all games have flaws and I don't think any of them are significant flaws.  The fun and benefits of SMB 3 still make it the best SMB in my eyes.  But we are talking opinions here and I loved the level designs.  I loved the powerups.  It's a game I can pop in with many of my childhood friends and we instantly have a great time. 

The physics are a little floatier than today's games, but it is still spot on and easy to adjust to.  I'm surprised that Yoshi's Island is so great to you because I thought that was a very flawed game and had meh level design.  I also didn't like it how it became like Sonic (grab the rings never die, grab the baby never die).  And game made you grind replaying the levels to find each item becoming more of a search and find game than a difficult platforming game like the Mario's before it.  But that's opinions for you everybody has one and none are more valid than others.

I will say the biggest flaw you have is one that people that lived through playing at that time will never see.  Some of the puzzles are difficult to find and there are few clues.  Back in the day, gaming was mainly for children and I was one of them.  Being a child I was at the whim of my parents for my gaming habits and surprise, they didn't value gaming as much as me.  I'm guessing most people in their mid 30's like me had a similar experience.  Long story short, I used to get 2-3 games per year.  Those games had to last me all year (I did do some other things).  I've beaten SMB3 in less than 30 minutes with warps.  I'm not sure how long beating every level takes but it probably takes about 8 hours.  So what I'm saying is it was a joy to fully explore the levels and uncover the hidden gems within the levels.  It was fun to go back and do multiple play throughs.  Most people that played the game back in the day have fully explored the levels and we just aren't getting to get stuck in the game at this point.  That's what makes it so great though, is I still have fun and annually go back and beat it again anyway. 

Oh, and it's nice that you are saying spread love, not hate.  But you did come off quite strong and gave the impression that you couldn't understand why anyone would like the game.  Maybe not your intent to spread hate, but that's certainly what it came off as.  And I'll be the first to admit that I've youtubed NSMB games to find some of the hidden coins.  I resort to this for most modern games for some completionist factor and you really shouldn't feel defeated by it.

[smallsharkbigbite]

Back on topic.  I think alot of retro games hold up excellently today.  Yeah, there's some broken games, but I still feel that the Mario's, Zelda's, Metroids, Contra, etc. hold up excellent compared to today.  I think early 3D looks terrible so the N64 is hard to play in general.  But if I can get past the headaches those games give me, they are fundamentally sound. 

Better/worse than today?  The only thing gauranteed to be better is the graphics.  Physics usually are tweaked, level design is changed, and powerups are changed, but fundamentally NSMB might as well be Super Mario Bros 4, 5, 6.  The only big changes are when 2D games become 3D games and lots of times they lose their identity and become worse games.  Sometimes they are great games such as Mario 64, but that really makes it hard to compare to the 2D Mario's.

My love of Nintendo started when I didn't get an NES.  I was obsessed with pulling all-nighters with friends or playing it at family members houses.  Mario and Mega Man were awesome but really Techmo Super Bowl was the game I'd play the most.  Since I didn't have a system, my friends and I would try to do one season in one night.  Sometimes we'd make it, sometimes not. 

Then my parents got me a SNES with the Mario All-Stars, Mario World, and Zelda.  I beat them all and loved every minute.  I got to play with my sister alot too which was great.  I never really owned alot of games, but there had to be several games that I rented out (when that was a thing) multiple times and the library was just outstanding.  Playstation became popular when I was in college.  While the "mature" marketing certainly worked for them I was always kind of turned off by it.  I didn't think I needed to play a mature game to feel like a man, and FPS are my least favorite genre so that was never a reason to leave Nintendo.  Then I bought my first console (a Gamecube) and I just loved it cementing a place for Nintendo in my heart. 

Props to Adrock.  "I feel the exact opposite way you do. GameCube, to me, is Nintendo's strongest console after SNES (N64 is close behind). It has three of the best games I've ever played (Melee, Prime, and RE4)."

Gamecube just doesn't get enough love.  I missed the N64 first time around so getting Double Dash, Zelda Collector's Disc, Rogue Squadron, Mario Tennis/Golf were awesome for me too.  Plus, the first time I played Remake I knew I had to get the rest of the survival horror series because that was brilliant.  Throw in Wind Waker, Pikmin, Monkey Ball, Eternal Darkness, and it had a great library.  I have 80+ games for it, I could go longer but I'll move on. 

[Fatty The Hutt]

That's why Zelda 1 is still my favourite because it has no bullshit puzzles that stop my progress completely.

Doesn't Zelda 1 rely in part on bombing random sections of wall to find things? Admittedly I have never finished this game and what I have played has been with a guide so, please to ignore me.

It's the worst feeling in the world when you have to google the walkthrough for Mario/Zelda game. You feel like the dumbest person in the world while doing so and somehow feel even dumber and sometimes cheated once you're shown the solution.

When I resort to looking up solutions, its not the worst feeling. It usually makes me laugh at how simple the solution was that I somehow missed. I think you just need to stop being so hard on yourself and love yourself more.

I give you permission to love yourself.

We, fans, should spread LOVE not HATE. As cheesy as it sound, it's true.

Oh, wait, there it is. There's the love. It's all good now. 

Oh and Yoshi's Island is amazing. I remember playing it on my work, among dozen of my colleagues (almost) crying of the levels of awesome and not even giving a ****. It was that awesome. I had similar experience with christmas level in Elite Beat Agents, only then i was bawling, again it was worth it.

This. This is awesome.

[Oblivion]

It's not my job to keep things on topic. Lord knows that if it were I wouldn't have time in my life for anything else.

Um, yeah it is. That's what mods and admins are for: keeping the forum posts and threads within rules. It isn't exactly hard to say, "stay on topic."

[Stogi]

The joke is up...up...up and over Oblivions head.

[NWR_insanolord]

It's not my job to keep things on topic. Lord knows that if it were I wouldn't have time in my life for anything else.

Um, yeah it is. That's what mods and admins are for: keeping the forum posts and threads within rules. It isn't exactly hard to say, "stay on topic."

Keeping things "witihin rules" and keeping things "on topic" are, at least in practice, very different things.

[nickmitch]

Isn't posting "on topic" somewhere "within the rules"?

[Fatty The Hutt]

Isn't "putting things in quotes" "fun"?

[NWR_insanolord]

Isn't posting "on topic" somewhere "within the rules"?

Maybe? Honestly, haven't read them lately, and I'm pretty sure they've been modified/rewritten in the meantime due to the actions of one of my predecessors. Technically, though, my position is "Community Manager," which is fairly vague and sufficiently open-ended, without any messy "duties" or "obligations."