Topic: The Unofficial And Pre-Emptive Majora's Mask Retroactive Thread

[Pixelated Pixies]

@azeke
 
I have to say, it's interesting to hear your account of how you were introduced to the series and the issues that you've had with Majora's Mask (and maybe polygonal Zelda games generally?). I'm actually finding it very difficult to empathise though, because my history with Zelda and with Majora's Mask in particular seems to be so very different from your own.
 
I for instance believe that far from being inaccessible to newcomers, the Zelda games have become overly concerned with accessibility and it has hurt the games themselves.
 
I also think that The Legend of Zelda on NES is obtuse and confusing when compared to something like Skyward Sword which is almost entirely linear and tutorial-laden.
 
I also never found Majora's Mask to be all that confusing or difficult. I played Majora for the first time back in 2009 when it was release on VC. The mechanics of slowing down time, speeing up time, warping between save points etc. made it so that I never felt pressured for time. I am aware that for some people the tutorial for slowing time might not have been explicit enough, but personally I feel it was made pretty clear. Once I'd grasped that detail everything else just seemed to fall in to place and it became a Zelda game (albiet with a cool quirk).
 
Things like showing the hood mask to the guy in the hood, or using the Mask of Scents to sniff out mushrooms just seemed very apparent to me.
 
I'm not saying your opinion is in any way wrong, I just find it fascinating that people can approach the same thing from entirely different perspectives.

[azeke]

I for instance believe that far from being inaccessible to newcomers, the Zelda games have become overly concerned with accessibility and it has hurt the games themselves.

Well you have one witness of a newcomer to the series who finds NES game with it's open world design much more accessible than any other game in the series.
 

I also never found Majora's Mask to be all that confusing or difficult.

It's not about about difficulty at all. If it was about enemies being especially tricky or something, i can eventually overcome it by trying again and again and i can visibly see my progress by killing more and more monsters and advancing further and further with each try. Which is why from gameplay perspective i enjoy original game the most: it's pretty hard in arcadey sense of the word but it's fair. You know you're not getting screwed over because you don't have that specific item at some moment, you always have a chance. I know i can always practice and get better and i will see for myself that i am better.

Which is why Zelda puzzles are so frustrating, especially overworld ones. When i can't get them, it's like a stone wall, i try wander around looking for clues in the areas i've already been and i backtrack and backtrack backtrack and when i find nothing helpful at all i feel like i just spent four hours and haven't progressed an inch. Awful feeling like i'm banging my head against that wall and can't do anything.

Feeling which only deepens when i give up and look up the solution.

I can deal with action. I love it. Give me more action. It's non-action-y parts i have problems with.

Things like showing the hood mask to the guy in the hood, or using the Mask of Scents to sniff out mushrooms just seemed very apparent to me.

But that doesn't make sense... I will need to check descriptions for the mask and hooded guy's request when i come home, but i specifically remember him asking for spirit vessel. Which is why i vacuumed all over cemetery and even went back to Woodfall temple because it had parts with Lens of Truth which is related to spirits.

Why is he asking for one thing when he wants another thing?

Ugh...

[Pixelated Pixies]

Why is he asking for one thing when he wants another thing?

Because he's a character in the game not the game designer, lol. To my recollection there aren't too many instances where a character in that game will flat out ask you to present them with a specific mask. A Witch might talk to you about not being able to sniff out mushrooms, a milk bar owner might only allow you to enter their establishment once you've demonstrated your membership, and a pair of dancers might comment about not being able to choreograph a new dance, but for characters to flat out ask you to put on a specific mask would not only undermine them as characters it also wouldn't be any fun.
 
I also pulled up a text dump of the game. When you get the Garo mask it says
 
'You got the Garo's Mask!
The wandering ninja spirits who
appear at Ikana once wore this.'
 
When you view the information in the start screen it says
 
'Garo's Mask
This mask can summon the hidden
Garo ninjas. Wear it with (C).'
 
Then when you go to Ikana Canyon Tatl alerts you to the presence of an unseen spirit.
 
I've yet to make my way to this area on my current playthrough and I'll be interested to see how that section plays out, but I honestly don't remember that point in the game giving me any problems in my original playthrough. Your mileage may vary.

[Ian Sane]

Apart from somewhat general inaccessibility my other problem with Zelda games are puzzles. Especially overworld puzzles that you have to do to get inside next dungeon. Funny i almost never got lost in original NES game but i get myself looking for instructions in EVERY damn game after it. In original game all it took for me to find next dungeon is just to wander a bit and i'd stumble upon something eventually, i've found all dungeons by myself, never had to resort to walkthrough even once.

In later games i try to find an answer which is usually an easy and obvious to some, but i can't understand it so i get frustrated and just lose interest. It usually takes me months to tackle the game again. It took me more than a year to finish WW and OOT because of this and that's the only ones i DID finish.

I find that Nintendo kind of sucks at determining what the player should be able to figure out on his own.  It seems with recent Zelda games if the solution is obvious and intuitive the game will hit me over the head with obvious hints to the point that they might as well just do it for me.  But then the most obtuse, illogical puzzles will have no hint at all and I'll waste time trying to interact with an object that's just scenery or try to time some impossible manuever to get somewhere the game doesn't want me to go yet.
 
The most illogical puzzle I can think of is in OoT where you have to play the forest song for Darunia.  What possible reason would there be for Link to go back to the forest he just left five minutes ago to retrieve some song?  The only "hint" is Navi outright telling you to go there and I had quickly learned to completely ignore Navi early on so I either never responded to her "Hey!  Listen!" or I just skipped through the text.  The problem is that the whole solution is inconsistent with the game's narrative.  Link had just left the forest for the first time ever and has more of less been banned for "killing" the Deku Tree.  In any decent story Link would not return until he was an adult, but OoT has you go back almost right away.  Yeah, so what's the big deal with Link leaving home if he can and will just pop by whenever he wants?  At the time we were only a few years removed from the era of "rescue the Princess" stories where the narrative was mostly in the manual.  So "holy ****, there's somewhat of a story here" was actually part of the thrill for me.  So I escaped into the story and then Nintendo expected me to immediately go back to the place I was just seemingly banished from forever and it just made no sense so I needed a walkthrough to get me through that part.  Today I would have figured it out using "gamer logic" which is different and often contradictory to "real logic".  If the game requires "gamer logic" then it isn't really intuitively designed.

[Fatty The Hutt]

I find that Nintendo kind of sucks at determining what the player should be able to figure out on his own.  It seems with recent Zelda games if the solution is obvious and intuitive the game will hit me over the head with obvious hints to the point that they might as well just do it for me.  But then the most obtuse, illogical puzzles will have no hint at all and I'll waste time trying to interact with an object that's just scenery or try to time some impossible manuever to get somewhere the game doesn't want me to go yet.

You have provided gross generalizations apparently backed up by a single example which in no way supports your statements. You are in serious danger of failing this assignment, Mr. Sane.


An example from OOT is in no way from a "recent Zelda Game". I will permit examples from Skyward Sword, Spirit Tracks, Phantom Hourglass and even Twilight Princess, though this latter is straining the bounds of "recent".


As you have cited an apparent trend that spans more than one game, I will require a number of examples that illustrate this apparent "trend" and the examples must be from multiple games. Keep in mind that you are required to provide examples of both "obvious and intuitive" and "obtuse or illogical" puzzles.


As for your opening statement that "Nintendo kind of sucks at determining what the player should be able to figure out on his own", I am prepared to be convinced this generalization is supportable. However, you may wish to consider revising the scope of the statement so that it refers only to "recent Zelda games".


I'll expect your work on my desk in the morning. If you are unable to comply with the requirements of this assignment Mr. Sane, then I remind you that, according to Nintendo Law^TM, you are required to withdraw your statements.


Govern yourself accordingly.

[EasyCure]

wtf did I just read? lol

It's been a few years since I last played but I'm positive only Milo ”bans” you for killing the tree, and its established through the narrative that he's... well, a prick who thinks he's the boss. In fact he may be the only person who specifically blames you for the Deku trees death. everyone else is either generally sad or don't mention it.

the ” big deal” about leaving the forest is that Kokiri can't leave the forest because they would supposedly die. Before the Deku tree dies, though, he tells Link he's not actually a Kokiri so it seems it was fate that he was orphaned in the forest, because he can venture out and save the world.. or something.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Just an update.

Yesterday I completed the Greatbay Temple (one of my favourites), and today I finished up both Skull Houses. I know the latter are glorified treasure hunts but for whatever reason I find them really satisfying. I also picked up the Mirror Shield from the Gibdo Well and plan on going through the Stone Tower sometime after the Holidays.

I'm actually surprised by just how much fun this playthrough has been. I had only played through the game once before, but I had enjoyed the experience enough to put Majora's Mask above Ocarina of Time in terms of my favourite Zelda games. Playing through it again for the upcoming Retroactive has just cemented that opinion.
 
Majora's Mask is incredible.

[lolmonade]

So having a few days off before going back to work on the 2nd of January, I decided to take the plunge and start a new game for Majora's Mask.

At this point, I've gotten through the initial clock town objectives, and am being told to head towards the swamp. 

Definitely the farthest I've gotten so far, and feel good about not having to use a walkthrough yet.  I stopped playing more as a chance to take a break than getting tired/bored, but I will admit my favorite parts have all been when they refer back to Ocarina of Time.

That being said, I'll definitely continue pushing on in hopes that this Zelda game carves a piece into my "favorite games" Pie.

[azeke]

So, after a hint from MiiVerse about music box house (i'd never guessed it myself, i knew i had to use bombs and did it many times never understood i am supposed to hide from the girl) and got the mask and went to labyrinth with mummies. They started asking for some stuff so of course... i started using Song of Soaring and went teleporting around the world looking for stuff they asked. I bought blue potion from plant monster (i contemplated saving witch in the swamp again for her to open her shop and buy it from her but thought it was too much hassle), got lots of flashing seeds in the swamp and other stuff. The most annoying stuff was when some mummy asked for water and i went everywhere and couldn't get anywhere. I can take fish from the ponds alright (first fish i got from the shop with itchy shopkeeper) but can't take the water. I'm like: "IT'S RIGHT THERE GODDAMMIT, TAKE IT".

I went to snowy area and went all the way up to a cave wit the stone guy's grave to get the water.

And after i went though all this to get all that stuff i come to labyrinth again and see that all that stuff is actually in there already.

Great. Okay that was on me but still. I spent half an hour on nothing and of course i don't want to blame myself for being retarded so i'm gonna blame the game for the lack of hints.

Also placing one single mummy that asks for flashing seeds and the only place you can get them in the labyrinth is RIGHT behind the door that this mummy is guarding is just plain stupid or sloppy.

Okay i opened everything and the only mummy left is the asking for calcium. I then found a cow and then spent another fifteen minutes trying to understand what game wants me to do to get the milk.

Then i gave up and looked it up and i was supposed to use one of the songs. Which of source made zero sense to me. Also funny how i already tried a few of other songs and wanted to try this particular one and but thought "nah, that's just too dumb and makes no sense at all".

TLDR. Puzzles in this games are making me angry.

[Pixelated Pixies]

@azeke
 
Yeah, I didn't care for that section either. Talk about fetch quests.

Although, I didn't have any difficulty with the Milk part, but that's probably because I had gotten milk from cows in Ocarina of Time by the same means. It made sense, to me at least, because I had learned 'Epona's Song' on a ranch, but I can also see why that might never occur to somebody.

[EasyCure]

So wait, you're saying Nintendo crafted a game that DIDN'T hold your hand!? SOMEBODY CALL IAN, QUICK!

[azeke]

So i'm in Stone Tower and that whole create your double thing to press buttons is very tiresome.

Was surprised and very glad to see an owl in the middle of it. Saved and quit. Will finish it later.

[Fatty The Hutt]

So wait, you're saying Nintendo crafted a game that DIDN'T hold your hand!? SOMEBODY CALL IAN, QUICK!

AHHHHhahahahahahaha.


+1, if I could


My update is: I got through the first temple on my own but didn't manage to find all the fairies, so still want to go back and do that.
Then I grabbed a guide and went back and did a whole bunch of stuff I apparently missed. Have a fair few masks now and the side quests were mostly pretty fun.


Since then, haven't been motivated to continue because I am a bit put off by the idea that I have to re-do everything everytime I reset time. I know, duh, but it seems like the deeper you get into the game, the more steps need to be redone before continuing on and I am afeared of running out of time again.


I'm overthinking it, I know. But also, there are no "quick" play sessions with this game, it seems. It's like climbing a hill everytime I boot it up. And, I kknow I could quick save, but there's so many linear steps and other crap to keep track of, I am loathe to stop a playsession halfway through something. Its liek, I'll do a session to do all the stuff that leads to a dungeon. Then I'll do a dungeon session. No middle ground.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Since then, haven't been motivated to continue because I am a bit put off by the idea that I have to re-do everything everytime I reset time. I know, duh, but it seems like the deeper you get into the game, the more steps need to be redone before continuing on and I am afeared of running out of time again.


I'm overthinking it, I know. But also, there are no "quick" play sessions with this game, it seems. It's like climbing a hill everytime I boot it up. And, I kknow I could quick save, but there's so many linear steps and other crap to keep track of, I am loathe to stop a playsession halfway through something. Its liek, I'll do a session to do all the stuff that leads to a dungeon. Then I'll do a dungeon session. No middle ground.

Maybe I'm just playing this game differently from most people, but I don't find myself ever having to redo things (perhaps with the exception of the Kafei sidequest which does require trial and error). I usually find that after I've completed a side quest the game gives me what I need to by-pass having to do that sidequest again. Help the girls on the ranch and you'll be given a mask so that you don't have to do it again. Make it to the shadow tower and there's an owl there so that you don't have to make the journey again.
 
My advice to people playing this game that feel they're having to go through certain steps multiple times is to have a goal in mind for each 3 day period you play. As long as you see that particular side quest through to it's conclusion then you really should not need to do it again.

[EasyCure]

My first time ever playing the game, I wasted a lot of time exploring everything I could. Eventually I realized this would hurt my play experience and took a different approach then I've ever done with a Zelda game: march forward (until those save points are found) then back-track.

It didn't change the experience too much, especially once you're given the ability to warp. One day I could progress my journey as far as I wanted then once my 3-days reset I'd revisit everything I couldn't and see what type of side quest I could go on or what type of secrets I could find.

[azeke]

Stone Tower Temple when upside down is so terrifying for me. I was always afraid i will fall up to the sky. Still don't like looking straight up at clear sky or at tall building..

Thanks, game.

I am beat. It's 2 AM, and i think i am somewhere 60% at beating Stone Tower Temple, but my job at the morning aint gonna go anywhere so i called it a night and saved the game to replay it all later. But eh, it's nothing, this temple i think is very fast. I did everything to this point within the hour or so and that was my first try.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Playing this a second time, I really feel like I've gained a better understanding of the manner in which I approach playing video games.
 
For instance, on both occasions I've gotten stuck at the same part in the Shadow Tower and wasted a lot time wandering about trying to figure it out (I really dislike using guides).
 
It was only when I finally found the solution that I realised I had got stuck at the exact same point last time too. I must just be really stubborn. I think I know why that is though. I always seem to poke and prod at games extensively, trying to figure out what's possible and what's not (that's probably why I find the Metroid series and games of that ilk so satisfying). This approach to games, however, does mean that I have a tendency to obfuscate things which should be pretty straight forward. I always seem to get so caught up in rummaging that I lose sight of where I was supposed to be going or how to get back on track.
 
The section in the Shadow Tower, for intance, that has caught me out twice now is the part where you have to Hookshot across to the chest on the roof (which had previously been the floor) in order to get to the Boss Door. I think that on both occasions that I collected the Boss Key I then decided to back track in order to collect all the fairies. By the time I've done that, however, I've lost my bearings and, because I've switched gravity so many times, can no longer seem to get back on track.
 
These sorts of recurring issues that I have with games really must say something about the way my mind works, because I seem to keep falling into the same traps.

[Ian Sane]

I never collected the fairies on my first go through the dungeons for fear of running out of time.  I would beat the dungeon and then later dedicate a new three day cycle for finding the fairies.  I would have a key plan for each three day cycle.  Getting to a dungeon would be one cycle, the dungeon itself would be another, etc.

[EasyCure]

The first time I ever played MM I gave up at the Stone Tower Temple too, but relatively early on (from what I can remember) but the strangest part was I knew what I had to do but for some reason it wasn't working how I thought it should.. I wish I could remember the room to describe it better.. all I know is I gave up. Seriously just gave up and didn't play the game again until years later when the Gamecube collection was released, and when I got to that Temple I didn't even realize I had blown through the part that I was stuck on all those years ago.. go figure.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Speaking of the Shadow Tower, what is everyone's favourite Majora's Mask dungeon/temple?
 
Although Stone Tower has a really cool concept, I think my favourite would either be Great Bay or Snowhead. Great Bay probably wins it for me. Apart from being a great dungeon to play through (changing the direction of the turbine so that the water is pushed into different vents was a really cool puzzle, and freezing and un-freezing jets of water in order to turn and stop various cogs was similarly fun) I also think that as a water temple equivalent it's made so much better by the fact that you can swim underwater, and submerge and surface easily by wearing the Zora mask. Plus, I really dig the trippy, LSD-induced, colour palette of that dungeon.
 

[Luigi Dude]

Snowhead is my favorite.  I loved the Goron gameplay mechanics the best out of all the transformations so that Temple was the most fun to play, especially the boss.

[Ian Sane]

Since MM has only four "proper" dungeons I actually can remember each of them quite well.  I think Great Bay was my favourite since it's basically a good water dungeon.  I was very impressed by OoT at the time but there were a few things that bugged me and seemed lazy and rushed.  The camera angle was fixed in Castle Town and you couldn't swim.  MM addressed both of those.  A water dungeon where you can swim just makes perfect sense.

Swimming in MM was so much fun, while swimming in most N64 games was a huge chore.

[Pixelated Pixies]

So I've decided to do the Anju & Kafei quest today (I'm actually writing this while waiting for in-game time to reach 11:30 PM so I can speak with Anju in the kitchen) and it got me wondering about what Nintendo could add or change if Majora's Mask were to be re-released on 3DS.
 
The ability to skip to evening or the morning of the next day is great and all, but what would make this game move a lot quicker would be the ability to specify the time you want to jump to. Need to speak with Anju in the kitchen at 11:30? Instead of jumping to 6PM and waiting around, why not allow the player to jump in 1 hour increments. That way you could jump to 11:00 PM and bypass a lot of waiting around. I can even see how such a feature might be displayed on the 3DS. It could simply be a full view of the half clock face you see in the current version of Majora's Mask, only instead of taking up real estate on the main screen it could be put down on the bottom screen. The player would simply have to play the sped up Song of Time and then drag the hand of the clock to the designated hour and hey presto.
 
I also think it would be kind of useful if the Bomber's Notebook had some sort of alarm feature, so that you could set reminders.
 
Anyway, it's nearly 11:00 PM so I better go speak with Anju. To be honest, I don't understand why she couldn't have just handed me the damn letter when I spoke with her earilier. 

[Ian Sane]

Being able to specify the time would be a good addition.  I also would like the game to pause time while you're in a dungeon since there is no real benefit in having the time limit in that case or at least make it an option.  The quick save probably needs to be made more flexible to accomodate the switch to a handheld.

[azeke]

Beat stone tower temple boss and got to skull kid part. I think i had to reverse that damned thing like ten times to find all fairies, very time consuming when you do all those statues (i wasn't sure if soaring spell destroys your progress in the dungeon when you come out of it, so i didn't use soaring to get from temple exit and owl).

When i got into the moon i realised i didn't save and chickened out by turning the time back and saving.