Author Topic: Nintendo Wises Up  (Read 46390 times)

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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2012, 09:56:32 PM »
I just really hope I don't have to use Wikipedia that day.

If you have to you can do what people used to do before Wikipedia existed: Use google to find the information you need.

Google always takes me to Wikipedia. :(
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Offline MegaByte

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2012, 09:58:53 PM »
Then use Google's cache.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2012, 10:01:05 PM »
Ah, the best thing about first world problems is that they're so easily solved. :)
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2012, 10:05:49 PM »
Once again you show that you don't understand anything, TJ. The sites that were going to go dark are some of the same sites that would most likely be shut down due to SOPA - giving the internet a preview of what is to come should this horrid legislation pass. And these sites would only be down until the online petitions that they were going to link to would hit a certain amount of signatures, which would probably only be a matter of minutes.

On Wikipedia, only free use images are allowed, so they wouldn't be affected. Even SOPA would not be as bad as opponents claim.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2012, 10:09:22 PM »
On Wikipedia, only free use images are allowed, so they wouldn't be affected. Even SOPA would not be as bad as opponents claim.

They said the same thing about giving Hitler dictatorial powers, and look what happened. Any power that can be abused will be abused if given enough time. So the best policy is to not give anyone that power in the first place.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2012, 10:26:08 PM »
Hitler comparisons only hurt your argument.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2012, 10:42:37 PM »
Hitler comparisons only hurt your argument.

That doesn't mean it isn't a valid point though.

Another thing you could compare it to is like a witch hunt where someone could get burned to death based on accusation alone. In this case with SOPA websites can be shut down based on mere accusation. That's the danger this legislation poses. There is no due process.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2012, 10:48:58 PM »
It's not valid though. Unless your site is illegally hosting content, you have nothing to be worried about.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2012, 10:58:30 PM »
It's not valid though. Unless your site is illegally hosting content, you have nothing to be worried about.

Yeah you do, because you have to worry someone will wrongly accuse you of hosting illegal content and have your site shut down without due process of law.

And if you think just because you are innocent you have nothing to worry about I can direct you to articles of people shot and killed by the DEA who made a drug raid on the wrong house and they thought someone had a gun but it ended up just being a tv remote. So don't tell me just because you are innocent you have nothing to fear from the law. People are literally dead because of mistakes. Now sites getting shut down isn't as bad as people getting killed, but its not right either.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 11:05:25 PM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline Morari

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2012, 11:59:18 AM »
I think that the widespread abuse of the DMCA is proof enough that the media cartels don't need the kind of power SOPA would present to them. Never mind the recent illegal seizure of foreign domains by the DHS and ICE. This brewing "War on Piracy" will be just as successful as every other made-up, ideological battle... be it drugs or terror. Criminals will continue completely unaffected, while your average Joe is rounded up, tried, and convicted. Perhaps we should try looking at what's wrong with the copyright system and fixing it instead? Let's repel all of these Disney-friendly copyright terms of life + 70 years. Let's get things into the public domain, so that they can be taken, used, and expanded upon.

Dim-witted authoritarians always like to use the "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" argument. I assume it comes from a combined lack of foresight, perception of human nature, and historical education. These are the kind of people that would have telescreens installed in every room of every house if they could. Because corporations are people, and we just have to look out for peoples' best interest, right?
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2012, 12:40:09 PM »
That's awesome, now the 1/18 protests probably won't have to take place.

If any sites were stupid enough to do that, I would have supported any permanent boycott of those sites because they would be the true enemy. PIPA isn't as bad and will help protect IP's.

So now that Wikipedia's going dark tomorrow to protest PIPA, I guess TJ Spyke boycotting it means he won't be using it as a source of information for his pedantic corrections anymore.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2012, 01:45:47 PM »
I haven't used Wikipedia for information (other than stuff like game sales) in quite some time.

Morari, please explain how you think letting more stuff into public domain sooner would help stop piracy?
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2012, 03:00:21 PM »
Well if more things go to the public domain, those things that use to be pirated wouldn't be.

I think pirating is a good thing though for a few reasons.

1. It allows people who can't afford media to experience it. This allows a greater amount of people to become fans and if it's good enough the creators will make more than enough money.

2. It sets a higher standard of excellence. A lot of people who don't deem it worthy to go see a movie in theaters will wait for it to come out on DVD. Piracy lets people take it one step further and allows people who don't deem it worthy to rent or buy to still watch it. This makes the standards of movies that excell much higher. So despite giant ad campaigns, movies that are terrible won't make as much money as Hollywood execs are use to making. Eventually crap like Green Latern should stop being made, but I admit, it could backfire due to studios playing it safe and movie goers not wanting to risk their money on a creative film. Still, despite those good creative films flopping, a fan base will grow due to point number 1.

3. Piracy allows for remixes. Remixing is possibly the greatest thing ever. It's taking an idea and manipulating or adding to it. This is a fundamental step to the innovation process and a fundamental step to human intellectual evolution. It is so influential in fact that every product that we deal with, even the food we eat, is a remix of a product long ago. Remixing is essentially taking an idea and trying to make it better. Now imagine if all ideas were free to manipulate and there was nothing called piracy, human imagination could be set loose. People could actually dabble with things and ideas without the fear of persecution.

Now I understand there are people who sell other people's ideas for themselves and that's wrong, but the recognition is never transferred nor is there such a loss of money that undersells that recognition. It's simply because of the system that is in place makes it seem so. Most ideas are not as great as the price tag may make them seem. Chalk that up to marketing. The ideas that are great will always make the money it deserves and that's a fact.

The biggest reasons piracy is hated is because almost all industries are trying too beat one idea with another in order to make money. This fuels competition and thus should make the best product. But that's a bold face lie. If it makes the best product for customers, and not for people. That's why medicine rarely deals with cures but instead treatment, that is why phones and computers make integral upgrades, and that's why popular music sounds so similar.

The industry instead should be set up in terms of paying those who collaborated, paying those that collaborated the greatest the most. Companies shouldn't be mad and say "Hey you stole my idea!" they should say "Wow you made our idea better, but what if we added this..." Companies would then not be competing since money would be flooding in from all sides, but instead be collaborating with themselves and even with consumers who would be your best collaborators.

If that were the way things worked, we would live in a better world simply because money would take a backseat to progress.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:17:59 PM by Stogi »
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2012, 03:22:13 PM »
Copyrights should be finite and they should expire after some reasonable amount of time. That said, I think people deserve to be able to profit from their intellectual creations, but that should end at their death. How can a dead person profit from his creations? They can't. Mickey Mouse was created almost a century ago and Walt Disney who created it has been dead for a long time. That's an example of something which should be out of copyright now, but it isn't because of the Sonny Bono copyright extension. Walt Disney deserved to be able to profit from Mickey Mouse, but he has been dead for about 45 years now so what good does it do him to still hold onto it beyond the grave?
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2012, 03:39:23 PM »
Copyrights are pointless. Copying is the sincerest form of flattery, so why should anyone become angry? Again, recognition will never copy over and if it does, it is vanity that compells someone to scream out "He copied my idea!" What people don't realze is just because I created it does it really  make it mine? The fact that it is so loved and cherished is because of other people and not me, so why should I withold my tecnique or way of thought from my fellow human beings? Does a secret recipe taste better simply because it is secret?

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« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:42:19 PM by Stogi »
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2012, 03:55:14 PM »
Copyrights are pointless. Copying is the sincerest form of flattery, so why should anyone become angry?

Two reasons come to mind.

1) If someone makes something and someone else takes it and creates derivative works and those derivative works end up becoming more popular than the original then the original creator might not be credited for their creation. Someone who made the more well known derivative work would get all the accolades.

2) In addition to accolades, the derivatives might make more money. Not being able to profit off your own creation is bad, but to then have someone make a few tweaks and make that money instead is adding insult to injury.

There was a movie a few years ago based on a true story of this guy who invented automatic windshield wipers and I think GM stole that idea and he not only didn't get the money he deserved but he didn't get the credit for it either. He fought his whole entire life for it and the big auto company offered to pay him money to drop it but he didn't want the money. He just wanted the credit that this was his idea. Finally like 50 years later he got the credit he sought his whole life and was able to die in peace.

Like I said, people deserve to be credited for their creations. They should also be able to profit from them too. But once they die then I think it should go public domain.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 03:59:31 PM by Chozo Ghost »
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2012, 04:18:15 PM »
Sounds like a waste of a life to me. What he should have done is continued to be creative and make something else. People will steal your ideas and no amount of fighting, money or laws will ever stop that from happening.

As for accolades, being told your great is like being patted on the head like a dog. The greatest people in the world are those that never wanted to be told they were great in the first place, because they didn't need it.

Furthermore, making money from your idea is different than creating it and I wish people would learn that. Just because you make it doesn't mean you deserve money when it's sold. You need to take the inniative and sell it yourself. Now in a perfect world, people will give credit and money to those inventors, but until we fix the fundemental issue of idea beating ideas, it will never be a right afforded to people.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 04:20:30 PM by Stogi »
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Offline King of Twitch

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2012, 04:34:27 PM »
But then people would just sit around all day waiting for good ideas to copy, just like on Wii.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2012, 04:57:35 PM »
Sounds like a waste of a life to me. What he should have done is continued to be creative and make something else. People will steal your ideas and no amount of fighting, money or laws will ever stop that from happening.

Maybe it was his fear that anything else he created would just get stolen anyway so what's the point? Copyright laws are supposed to protect against that. Do they work 100% like they should? No. But removing them entirely would just make it a free for all.  BTW, the movie is called "Spark of Genius" if you want to watch it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_of_Genius_%28film%29

I seen the movie and the way he was screwed over pissed me off and I was glad he won in the end, even though it took him his whole life of fighting it.

You need to take the inniative and sell it yourself.

That won't work if there was no copyright laws protecting your work. Let's say you write a novel and you try to publish it yourself. I'm sure you can print some copies yourself, but not many. But as soon as some big printing monopoly manages to get one of your handful of copies they can make millions of copies out of it and you can't compete with that. Removing copyright laws allows big business to run roughshod over individuals by making it completely legal for them to take their creations and market them and exploit them in a way a lone individual could never manage to do on his own. That's not right.
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Offline Morari

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2012, 05:53:47 PM »
Perhaps the only way to get paid is by actually doing something worth getting paid for, like giving me a physical copy of a book, or a concert I can go to, etc.

Some industries have already made this transition. Wedding photographers used to shoot weddings for a minimal fee, then charge a large amount for prints and reprints. If you wanted extra copies of your wedding photos for your extended family, you had to pay for the extra prints.

With the advent of scanners and dirt-cheap photo printers, they've transitioned to a model where they charge a lot for shooting the wedding, but charge little for the prints or even give them away for free. Technically they can charge for the prints as they did before, but realistically they know it's so easy to make copies there's no possible way they'd be able to enforce their copyright for every photo the take. So they've just restructured their payment system to reflect reality, rather than copyright laws.

Forget for a moment everything about copyright, publishing, movie/music production, etc. Think of this purely in terms of work vs. compensation. I shoot photos of a wedding and process the photos. That's a lot of work. I print pictures of said wedding. That's very little work. Under the old model, the payment system did not reflect my costs - I charged very little for the part which required a lot of work on my part, but charged a lot for the part which required almost no effort. The new system fixes this. I now charge a lot for the part which requires a lot of work, and charge little for the part which requires little work.

The same thing has got to happen to books, music, and movies. In the old days, musicians and actors were paid for live performances. That is the norm.

In the 20th century there was a bit less than 100 years where technology was good enough to allow mass duplication, but not good enough to lower cost of duplication to the point where individuals could duplicate. This allowed a business model to flourish in which payment did not reflect costs. Musicians and actors were able to work once, then sit back and make money over and over based on that single performance. This is not normal. No other business is like that - you have to constantly work if you want to keep making money.

Now in the 21st century, the cost of mass duplication has fallen far enough that it's now easily within grasp of the individual. No longer does it make sense for people to be charged large amounts of money for what is a nearly free service (duplication). People may be stuck on the morality of it because the 20th century way is all they've ever known. But strictly in terms of work invested vs. compensation, the 20th century way was clearly wrong since the most money was being made for the step which cost the least money.

The transition to a model where content creators are not paid for duplication services is not some new journey into unexplored territory. It is a return to what was the norm for millenia. For most of history, duplication was impossible (performances) or nearly impossible (books), so the only way to get paid was for the actual content creation. During the 20th century, duplication became possible, and content creators leveraged it to get paid multiple times over for the same work. Now in the 21st century duplication has become so cheap that people are starting to question if it's really fair for content creators to be paid multiple times for the same job. That is the true crux of the matter, not who owns the work or whether copying is stealing.

I do believe in copyright - the temporary monopoly does encourage creation. But the terms have to be reasonable. With duplication costs having dropped to almost zero, preventing society from making copies simply because of archaic laws does more harm than good. Something like 10-20 years for copyright seems about right to me. Copyright is fundamentally about encouraging creativity and creation of new content. A copyright term of life + 70 years discourages creativity, and instead encourages trying to figure out how to create something new once and live off it for the rest of your life.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2012, 06:11:08 PM »
This thread is full of lengthy replies! But, if I may just chime in on copyrights, the purpose of copyrights is to allow people to make a creative idea and profit from it exclusively without the fear of it being stolen. If you're successful in doing this, you'll probably live off of the idea, so it lasts your whole life. BUT if you die, your family was probably pretty used to living off the money, so it lasts for some considerable time after you die. The problem comes in when corporations hold copyrights. Corporations are supposed to have some of the same rights that people have, but then there's the problem of a going concern: they are intended to last forever. If a company makes a business around an idea and is continuing to thrive off of the idea, then having that idea go in to the public domain kinda fucks that **** up. Say what you want about Disney and all the **** they own, but if Mickey Mouse, Winnie the Pooh and other perennial franchises which now include Marvel properties fell in to public domain, even they would be hurt significantly.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2012, 06:42:21 PM »
Wedding photographers used to shoot weddings for a minimal fee,

Is that the story behind your avatar? :P
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Offline Morari

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2012, 06:53:06 PM »
It was a shotgun wedding. She was about to have puppies, and was totally enthralled by my mullet.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2012, 11:26:05 PM »
This thread is getting derailed pretty badly (I think) but Morari has made some excellent points (and several other users without any initials...). Anyway, Wikipedia is not the only site that would be affected. The internet as a whole would lose much of its appeal. Hell, nintendoworldreport.com would probably get shut down because if SOPA. We could all be considered criminals for discussingmovies and video games and using the names of copyrighted characters, etc. Your CM punk avatar could get the whole site taken down.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo Wises Up
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2012, 11:38:04 PM »
Talking about copyrighted stuff is not illegal. The avatars fall under fair use. NWR would be safe.
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