Topic: Wii U - e3 is over... now what?

[Chozo Ghost]

Computers have been built that have smoked Gary Kasparov at Chess and Ken Jennings at Jeopardy, so artificial intelligence is more than theoretical and already it is capable of kicking the ass of even the best humans. That happened quite a few years ago, so its really nothing new. Although that level of artificial intelligence probably has yet to make it to consoles since the computers that did it were classed as "Super Computers".

But seriously, do we want to play Chess against the likes of Deep Blue or Blue Gene or whatever they call it? If it can kick Gary Kasparov's ass then average players like us have no hope at all. Why would we want such pointless frustration in facing such a far superior opponent?

I'm not saying having an A.I. which walks into walls and gets trapped because it can't find the correct path to where it needs to go is ideal, but neither is an A.I. that absolutely slaughters you on sight.

[MegaByte]

I think we're talking about different kinds of AI. I'm thinking of things like RPGs where the inhabitants interact naturally with the environment and the players.

[Caterkiller]

http://www.n-europe.com/news.php?nid=15926

Speaking to VideoGamer, Jay Fitzloff said that Darksiders II would be no more than a port of the 360/PS3 build. However, examining the Wii U hardware itself, Vigil seems to think that current kits are already surpassing Xbox 360 and PS3 hardware.
 

"We're not trying to bump up or bump down, but we reached it, and it wasn't hard. Once we got it up and running it was like 'cool, there it is. We're still waiting on that final hardware and architecture, and help from Nintendo to figure that out. Right now, it looks like it's more than the 360 or PlayStation 3, but there's still a question mark about how much you can squeeze out of it. You know how it is, a new system, tricks get learned as the lifespan goes along, so this is where we're starting, and it looks good."

Fitzloff also stated that Vigil are in regular contact with Nintendo seeking consultation about how best to work with the hardware.
Meanwhile, the game's director Marvin Donald has spoken to Eurogamer about Wii U. He reiterated that Darksiders II would be very much on the same level technically as the 360/PS3 versions, but went on to indicate that Wii U developer kits may still not be finalised. Donald mused that "if the Wii U turns out to be this ridiculously powerful machine", then Vigil would seek to take advantage of it in the future.

Certainly a good sign. Last gen I remember wishing that miraculously the Wii would look comparable to the PS360. Hopefully when final kits come out the U will be totally comparable the PS4/720, but even if it isn't what more do we need besides space?

[ThePerm]

Ai is interesting, the problem is to have really good Ai, you would have to program the bot differently for each level, unless you make it smart enough that you dont need to do that.

[Ian Sane]

I think a real good use of advanced AI is with AI partners.  I don't want the bad guys to be too smart.  That will just make the game too hard.  But what I hate is when I've got some team of AI guys and they're useless and I have to bail their ass out the whole time.  I hate escort missions where the idiot I'm supposed to protect runs head on into the line of fire.

I want improvements in AI that benefit the player's experience.  Having Deep Blue kicking my ass doesn't benefit my experience.  I don't really feel that enemy AI has to improve that much.  I kind of want them to be dumber than me.  Most of the time they outnumber me 100 to 1.  I need the advantage of being smarter than them.  But having smarter AI on your side, clearly benefit's the player's experience.

With videogames you want to be capable of simulating reality and then you want to cherry pick the best elements of it and ditch the lame stuff.  That's why good videogames will try to have water moving as realistically as possible but won't make your character tire out and drown or be unable to float with a heavy shield on his back.  You use the elements of reality that make the game fun and you tweak the rest to your own liking.

[UltimatePartyBear]

The thing about AI is that it takes smarter AI to act dumber.  For example, a simple AI knows exactly where you are and how to come kill you.  A better AI knows that it shouldn't know that until you give yourself away.  Smarter AI doesn't mean the AI will simply be harder to overcome.  It means the AI will be capable of more complex behavior with fewer obvious scripts, including such human tricks as cowardice, foolishness, laziness, and innumerable other behavior models besides the current industry standards of "balls out aggression" and "predictable ambush."

[Chozo Ghost]

I think a real good use of advanced AI is with AI partners.  I don't want the bad guys to be too smart.  That will just make the game too hard.  But what I hate is when I've got some team of AI guys and they're useless and I have to bail their ass out the whole time.  I hate escort missions where the idiot I'm supposed to protect runs head on into the line of fire.

There was a level in the campaign on Black Ops where you have to fight your way through some Soviet research facility. I think it was the third mission... anyway, I was doing that on Veteran so I could get the trophy and that mission was the hardest of the entire game. There are two Allies who fight with you, but they are completely useless. They don't move forward unless you do, and to make matters worse they tend to hog the points of cover that you would want to take so they are not only not helping you they are actually harming you by occupying the limited cover that exists. I finally did beat it and got the trophy, but it took like 50 attempts (I'm not really exaggerating) and hours of frustration before I finally pulled it off. The rest of the game wasn't too bad.

But anyway, that's one example that comes to mind of where more intelligent A.I. allies would have been more useful.

[Stogi]

How does one even script AI? At what point can actual human play be harvested to father an AI model? And would that take enormous computing power?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Overstrike coming to WiiU!? Insomniac is says "you never know"
I say "you have no reason not to".
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/wii-u-to-see-insomniac-support-you-never-know-says-ted-price/

Since we haven’t talked about a release date, I don’t know if it’s too late or not [to bring Overstrike to Wii U as well]. You never know," he told us. "For now, what we’re talking about though is that Overstrike is going to be out on PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360."

What is Overstike you ask? Well here is the E3 video reveal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kltLI5oL22k

If the actual game is anywhere near as interesting as the trailer then consider my interest in a WiiU version piqued.

--------------------------------

Nintendo Trademarks a bunch of stuff
lots of names we already jokingly used too
http://wii.ign.com/articles/118/1182986p1.html

Wii U + logo, Mii U, Wii Fit U, Wii Sports U, Wii Music U, Wii Party U, Wii Play U, WiiWare U, Wii Balance Board U, Balance Wii Board U, Wii Wheel U, Wii Zapper U, Wii U Fit, Wii U Music, Wii U Party, Wii U Sports, Wii U Play, Wii U Ware, Wii U Balance Board, Balance Wii U Board, Wii U Wheel, Wii U Zapper, Wii Speak U, Wii U Speak

Good to see that creative naming is in use though....

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WiiU to serve GameCube on a silver eShop platter?
Nintendo won't confirm it, but they sure didn't deny it either.
http://www.destructoid.com/nintendo-won-t-confirm-download-gamecube-games-for-wii-u-206606.phtml

"Actually the GameCube discs will not be compatible with Wii U, but a number of the games that were playable on GameCube can be downloaded from WiiWare."

"To clarify the capabilities of the Wii U system: As correctly stated, Wii U will not play Nintendo GameCube discs, however Nintendo has not made any announcements regarding downloadable content."

Hmmm..... WiiU better come with at least an 8GB SD card preinstalled and 8GB onboard. GC games (1.8GB), WiiU Ware, & DLC would eat up all your space rather quickly otherwise.

[Ceric]

That OverStrike Trailer gives me a TF2 Vibe with how the characters all.  I think it would make for an amusing show but, I wonder if they can keep the comedic feel throughout.

[Stogi]

Overstrike kinda looks like Mass Effect but in a bad way. Still, I chuckled when that "Buddhist" kicked a dude out the window. Classic.

[Kytim89]

I have put my aquisition of Gamecube titles on hold due to the impending news that it will be added to Virtual Console on the Wii U. I just hope that Nintendo allows controller emulation through one of the front USB ports on the console.

[broodwars]

If we do see GameCube VC games on the Wii U, judging by how badly Nintendo has handled N64 games so far I probably wouldn't expect more than maybe 20 GameCube games on the service.  I'd pick up any of the more niche GameCube games you can find right now while you still can, because if the Wii VC is any indication we won't be seeing them on the Wii U.  At worst, you're probably out $15 or so on the Wii U incarnations, so you don't have much to lose.

[Kytim89]

If we do see GameCube VC games on the Wii U, judging by how badly Nintendo has handled N64 games so far I probably wouldn't expect more than maybe 20 GameCube games on the service.  I'd pick up any of the more niche GameCube games you can find right now while you still can, because if the Wii VC is any indication we won't be seeing them on the Wii U.  At worst, you're probably out $15 or so on the Wii U incarnations, so you don't have much to lose.

The problem with most of the potential games on the Wii VC is that licensing issues have hampered games from being put on the service. Consoles such as the Gamecube are still young enough in terms of licensing that most of the good titles coulkd be put on the VC of the Wii U. The only thing holding it back would whether companies like Capcom would want their games on the service.
 
Honestly, I see the Virtual Console becoming something to Steam. It would also include Dreamcast and the Saturn remakes currently on XBLA. However, Nintendo would be smart to include a Wii VC as well because I have missed out on a ton of Wii games and would rather have them in digital form.

[stevey]

If we do see GameCube VC games on the Wii U, judging by how badly Nintendo has handled N64 games so far I probably wouldn't expect more than maybe 20 GameCube games on the service.  I'd pick up any of the more niche GameCube games you can find right now while you still can, because if the Wii VC is any indication we won't be seeing them on the Wii U.  At worst, you're probably out $15 or so on the Wii U incarnations, so you don't have much to lose.

To be fair, Nintendo needs to do rewrite parts of every N64 games to get them to even run on the wii.  With the GC, they can reuse the same process as the wii with minor tweaks and it will work for the vast majority of games.

[MaryJane]

Wii Fit U...

[Ceric]

Wii Fit U...

A WiiU game that causes the WiiU to Drape around you into a super slimming suit by Day, mind control apparatus by night.

[durhamwitenite]

AI is very difficult to program. You don't want it too appear to be so smart that's its cheating but at the same time you don't want to make it look like its computer controlled on paths. In other words you want it to appear as if the AI bot is controlled by another human.

[Chozo Ghost]

I have put my aquisition of Gamecube titles on hold due to the impending news that it will be added to Virtual Console on the Wii U.

But odds are that the downloads will be priced more highly than what you could purchase the GC discs for, and it is also likely that the downloads will have features and content stripped out to either save space on the downloads or because its just easier or because the game made use of some GC specific peripheral (such as the GBA connectivity) which will not be available on the Wii U. So for those reasons, along with the fact that owning tangible media is better because it is yours for eternity, I would have to say its better to have the actual GC games if possible.

[Mop it up]

Most of those trademark names sound more like Nintendo ensuring no one releases a copycat product.

I expected the Wii U to have GameCube games added to the VC since it should be able to handle it. Plus, I don't think the New Play Control! series of games sold as well as Nintendo had hoped, so such titles will probably sell better and cost less as VC downloads.

[Ian Sane]

If we get Gamecube VC games I wonder if Pikmin 2 will be released in Japan but then get blocked by NOA in North America.  Pikmin 2 was easily the most wanted NPC release due to the scarcity of the of the original game and yet that was the one they didn't localize.  You can just imagine the frustations in waiting for that one Gamecube game you really want to show up on the VC while all sorts of random titles get released.

Anyone waiting around for Earthbound to show up on the VC for example is pulling their hair out while I can play my SNES cartridge any time I want.  If you want the game go out and get it.  I certainly would not pass up the chance to get a physical copy of Pikmin 2 or Zelda: Four Swords Adventure in favour of waiting around for Nintendo to release it on the VC.  Even if you pay extra it'll be worth it to play those games potentially years before the show up on the VC.

On the VC Nintendo will prioritize Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Pokemon and maybe Kirby.  Anything else is more obscure and less likely to be of concern to "no Xenoblade for you" NOA.  You think you're going to see Fire Emblem or Eternal Darkness?  I'll bet even F-Zero GX would be a low priority because F-Zero was not present on the DS or Wii so Nintendo would not associate that as a current major franchise.  The Wii Fit crowd for example has no clue what F-Zero is.

We also don't know how Nintendo is going to handle the VC as we switch from the Wii to the Wii U.  Do we get to transfer our titles?  If not and your Wii breaks, can you re-download the VC games you bought?  I'm hoping Nintendo will be fair about this stuff but we don't know yet.  If you have the Gamecube disc you are in control.  Keep the disc in good condition and you can always play it.  That in itself makes it worth it to get the old physical copy.

[TJ Spyke]

Actually, I think it's almost guaranteed that Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and F-Zero GX would get release on a VC service with GameCube games, Nintendo has been very good with releasing even obscure games on the VC. Even Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem would have a chance since Nintendo owns the IP. Since Nintendo has not announced downloadable GCN games though, you might want to just buy the physical versions.

[Mop it up]

Pikmin 2 was easily the most wanted NPC release due to the scarcity of the of the original game and yet that was the one they didn't localize.

Actually I wanted Chibi-Robo more, and I think it sold less than Pikmin 2.

Anyone waiting around for Earthbound to show up on the VC for example is pulling their hair out while I can play my SNES cartridge any time I want.  If you want the game go out and get it.

That isn't really the best example, since last I checked Earthbound sells for around $80 on eBay. People who are hoping it hits the VC don't want to pay those kinds of prices for it or resort to emulation. In the case of the GameCube, I expect its titles to be $15 on the Wii U VC, and a majority of the GameCube's library probably doesn't sell for more than that. So a GameCube game would have been a better example to use.

[broodwars]

Actually, I think it's almost guaranteed that Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and F-Zero GX would get release on a VC service with GameCube games, Nintendo has been very good with releasing even obscure games on the VC.

See, having Ogre Battle 64 on the service makes me want to agree with you, but I just can't in good conscience while we still don't have Earthbound, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinestrals, etc. on the VC.      Yeah, there might be something of a theme there.

Fire Emblem is a toss-up, because it didn't really use any special GC features and it is a series strongly tied to the Smash Bros. franchise.  If Nintendo of America could OK OB64, I think we'd be very likely to see Path of Radiance on the Wii U.  I'm not so sure about Eternal Darkness, as it's not an IP that even Nintendo of Japan has shown they altogether care about and it never sold all that well.  The games I think we probably wouldn't see are the likes of the Lost Kingdoms games, the Baten Kaitos games (based on NoA refusing to localize any Monolith production since BK Origins), Skies of Arcadia Legends (Sega's an idiot when it comes to getting good exposure for their franchises), the two SW: Rogue Leader games, etc.  We could see Tales of Symphonia, though, since that has been historically by far the most popular game in that franchise.

So yeah, pick up the games you want to play, and if they show up on the Wii U Virtual Console, so much the better.  You're already set, and will likely have paid less for them than those buying the VC versions.  The only real downside is that Nintendo might code new Classic Controller Pro support or whatnot into the VC versions.  Actually, I really hope they do that.  My Wavebird just isn't as comfortable to hold now as it was back in the day.

[TJ Spyke]

See, having Ogre Battle 64 on the service makes me want to agree with you, but I just can't in good conscience while we still don't have Earthbound, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinestrals, etc. on the VC.      Yeah, there might be something of a theme there.

But of those, only EarthBound belongs to Nintendo (so the only one they could put up by themselves), and there are the rumored legal issues with Nintendo not wanting to take a chance on a lawsuit (even though I think they would win). Still, I think Nintendo would be likely to put up any game that would not require any extra work on their part to put up. I think in an ideal world we would get every possible game up on the VC.