Topic: PlayStation4 - News/Rumor/Speculation - Over 1 Million Sold on Day 1

[nickmitch]

I dunno. I think I could still get some people for Wii Sports Bowling, but then again, I'm not sure if any of them would do it themselves. The games themselves kind of move in fads. Just Dance and MJ:The Experience pretty much hold the crown right now. Though, games outside the window are still brought up after the current ones are played.

[Ian Sane]

If Sony and MS lock out used games then it will take some massive bullshit for me to not buy a Wii U.  I'm not someone who buys beat up used copies from GameStop to save five bucks.  That's not the point.  I'm the guy who buys a used copy of a game several years after release because it ceases to be availabe new in stores anymore!  Videogames have a shelf life.  If Sony had this than that would mean if you bought a PS4 a few years after launch there would be earlier releases you could not play.  It means that ten years from now the PS4 had virtually no retro gaming presence whatsoever because if you missed out then, you're screwed.  Imagine if you didn't own a Gamecube when it was current and now EVERY Gamecube game was now unavailable to you.  Sorry, no Pikmin 2 or Paper Mario 2 or Wind Waker.  You didn't get a new copy at the time and they have not re-released it on a newer format so tough luck.

A videogame system never truly dies for me as I will buy used games for it years and years after they've gone out of print.  I would never buy a system where I knew that I couldn't do that.  And if they had that kind of restriction I could see the whole thing being an outright brick in the future if it required some DRM check from a server that ceases to exist.

[Adrock]

Um, sir, I think the point is that the games would always be available to you via download. You'd never miss out on any game. You just wouldn't have the benefit of paying used game prices for them. Yeah, I know. F that. I like owning physical copies of games.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Um, sir, I think the point is that the games would always be available to you via download. You'd never miss out on any game. You just wouldn't have the benefit of paying used game prices for them. Yeah, I know. F that. I like owning physical copies of games.

Not necessarily. It depends on how long the servers are up that support the downloads of the games. Will they be up in 15 years? What if Sony or MS leave the gaming industry? With a physical copy you know you will always have the game as long as you take care of it.

[Stogi]

In this day and age is anything really lost? I mean, I can still play all the NES and SNES games I've lost with a simple program and some roms. The only thing I miss is the feeling of the controller or the nostalgia of loading the game. Apart from that, I can still play Sunset Riders and Killer Instinct.

[TJ Spyke]

Besides the illegality of ROMs, it also becomes impractical as time goes along because of how big games are becoming (imagine trying to pirate MGS4, which used the full 50GB of a Blu-ray Disc).

Digital distribution only is a bad idea, I hope it never becomes the standard. Another downside to locking out used games is that it also makes it impossible to let your friends borrow your game or trade games with someone.

[Adrock]

@GoldenPhoenix

Fine. Generally speaking then. Jeez, did that really need a clarifying statement?

Within the context of Ian's example (namely "a few years after launch"), yes, those games would likely be available for the duration of the console cycle and probably even a few years after. And chances are, the owners of the various IPs would make those titles available in the future somehow, most likely on a newer console. If a game is out of print, you would only really miss the chance at owning a physical copy with a console that locks out used games.

[Stogi]

Besides the illegality of ROMs, it also becomes impractical as time goes along because of how big games are becoming (imagine trying to pirate MGS4, which used the full 50GB of a Blu-ray Disc).

Roms aren't illegal if you own the game, as I once did. Also the size argument is really moot because if they are trying to sell an online version, then you must be able to download it in a respectable amount of time and store it on a respectable sized disk.

[TJ Spyke]

That whole ROMs legal if you own it argument is a grey area at best. And even if you believe that, it would only apply if you currently own it (not if you used to own it). And by size I was referring to downloading it illegally (not from official servers), less people are gonna be willing to do it for something that is 18GB in size compared to like 40MB.

[BlackNMild2k1]

So I just ran across the rumor you guys are talking about since no one bothered to link to it or summarize it....

To sum things up
http://kotaku.com/5896996/the-next-playstation-is-called-orbis-sources-say-here-are-the-details

PS4 is codenamed Orbis.
http://orbis.scedev.net/ <-- an actual Sony Site
AMDx64 CPU
AMD Southern Islands GPU
No BC with PS3 (different GPU and awkward Cell structure make it hard for software emulation)
2k Resolution 4096x2160 (enough resolution for 1080p 3D games)
Anti-Used game Technology (Always online connection required/Games tied to SEN acct.)
-used game purchasers will have to pay to access the whole game or otherwise they will just own a demo disc.
Holiday 2013 Release date


and may I remind you that I have it written on a napkin that PS3 is coming in 2013... Xbox720 aka Durango may not launch till 2014.

[Stogi]

@TJ

Yeah right /sarcasm

There are packs of PS3 games in the 500 gb range being downloaded er'day. That's why I think people who are downloading it from official servers will be less patient because its something they paid for. So while 14 gb ain't **** to me or my community, it may mean a lot to the average consumer who saw a game, liked the game, bought the game, but now can't play the game until 6 hours have passed.

[broodwars]

Rumors are saying that the PS4 will refuse Used games and will not have Backwards Compatibility with PS3 games.  Sorry, Sony, but as much as I love my PS3 if these rumors are true I am NOT buying the PS4.  The line must be drawn He-ar!  This far!  No further!    Considering that there are similar rumors going on with the Xbox Next, I may have to reluctantly make the Wii U my main platform next generation.  I hope I don't have to, because there are games that appear on Sony platforms that I'd really miss not having a PS4 (Resistance, Killzone, Sly, Ratchet, to some extent Uncharted, Infamous, whatever ThatGameCompany and Quantic Dream are making, etc.), as well as certain genres that tend to appear on Sony platforms more than the others like JRPGs.

And before anyone asks "well, why don't you just keep your PS3?", I'm already on my second PS3 after my first one figuratively burst into flames and died.  I have no faith whatsoever that this machine will still be functioning in the same capacity 5-10 years down the line.  I like having the safety net of a new machine w/ BC and hopefully better engineering since the PS3 is an engineering disaster with things like heat management.

[Stogi]

Better engineering? From Sony?

ha

haahahaahahhahahaa

[broodwars]

Better engineering? From Sony?

ha

haahahaahahhahahaa

In regards to heat management, I would hope so.  It's hard to imagine a design worse than a heat management system where the components are designed to separate from the main board and then reform, which IIRC is the general reason why the YLOD eventually happens (as it did with my original PS3).  Then there are all the issues the Cell gave developers that caused so many messy PS3 ports for the first several years of the system's life (hell, it still seems to be giving them trouble in some cases like PS3 Skyrim).

[Chozo Ghost]

Brood, your first PS3 that died was the "Phat" model, right? From what I understand the slim model is a lot more reliable. If your second model is a slim then it could very well still be functional 5-10 years from now.

And the problem with Skyrim from my understanding is the lack of RAM. The 360 has 512MB whereas the PS3 only has 256MB. People commonly believe the PS3 is the most powerful system, and based on the processor that's probably true, but in terms of RAM it is inferior to the 360.

[Luigi Dude]

Would Microsoft and Sony really be that stupid to make it impossible to play used games on their next systems?  I mean, they do realize the majority of gamers buy some used games and sell some of their older gamers?  I mean, come on, they might as well make their next systems 599.99 U.S dollars as well if they go though with this.

Lets see here, last time their was an actual study on this issue

http://gamepolitics.com/2011/11/03/newzoo-56-percent-us-gamers-regularly-buy-used


Good god, I know Microsoft and especially Sony made some bad decisions with the 360 and PS3 but for their next systems to actually stop the sale and selling of used games on them would basically the business equivalent to playing Russian roulette with a loaded gun.

[BlackNMild2k1]

On the flip side, this would really cripple GameStop as they wouldn't be able to sell used game copies for practically full price when the buyer still has to go back and buy a license to get it out of demo mode.

[Chozo Ghost]

Gamestop's used games market would be limited to the Wii U, 3DS, and Vita. How would the market be effected if the Wii U was the only current system that allowed used game? Would this mean the Wii U would win the console wars by default?

[Adrock]

Anti-Used game Technology (Always online connection required/Games tied to SEN acct.)

Does that mean that the console always has to be online so the SEN account can be checked? That sounds phony because, surprising as it may be, not everyone has Internet access. If you can't even play games without being online, Sony is limiting the console's reach. And explaining that to people just sounds like a migraine waiting to happen.

And the problem with Skyrim from my understanding is the lack of RAM. The 360 has 512MB whereas the PS3 only has 256MB. People commonly believe the PS3 is the most powerful system, and based on the processor that's probably true, but in terms of RAM it is inferior to the 360.

That's not true. They both have 512MB RAM. 360's RAM is shared between the CPU and GPU, meaning developers can allocate RAM where their game needs it, more on GPU/less on CPU and vice versa. PS3 has 256MB dedicated to the CPU and 256MB dedicated to the GPU. They cannot be shared. From what I understand, this makes it harder to develop for. PS3's RAM might be faster but I can't confirm this.

Would this mean the Wii U would win the console wars by default?

This kind of seems like one of those "won the battle, lost the war" scenarios. Nintendo could end up selling the most consoles but what if, hypothetically, 3rd parties banded together to support the anti-used games initiative and threw most of their support behind MS and Sony. If people begrudgingly support those systems (hate the policy but refuse to stop supporting these companies), that hurts Nintendo. I'm not saying this is what would happen. Just some food for thought.

[Chozo Ghost]

That's not true. They both have 512MB RAM. 360's RAM is shared between the CPU and GPU, meaning developers can allocate RAM where their game needs it, more on GPU/less on CPU and vice versa. PS3 has 256MB dedicated to the CPU and 256MB dedicated to the GPU. They cannot be shared. From what I understand, this makes it harder to develop for. PS3's RAM might be faster but I can't confirm this.

I know. That's what I'm saying. The 360 has the freedom to put any or all of that 512MB of RAM to the CPU, so it can skimp on graphics if necessary for the sake of more number crunching power, but the PS3 is locked at 256MB for the CPU and that's it.

This kind of seems like one of those "won the battle, lost the war" scenarios. Nintendo could end up selling the most consoles but what if, hypothetically, 3rd parties banded together to support the anti-used games initiative and threw most of their support behind MS and Sony. If people begrudgingly support those systems (hate the policy but refuse to stop supporting these companies), that hurts Nintendo. I'm not saying this is what would happen. Just some food for thought.

This applies to used game retailers as well, such as Gamestop. Since this would hurt their business severely, they may decide not to even sell the PS420 hardware, games, and accessories for new since they can't sell them used. They would also bust their ass to push and promote the Wii U in every way they can, because their success as a used game retailer depends on the Wii U now because its their only hope. So even if they do sell the PS420 and its stuff new, they might hide it more in the back and not promote it as much, just because it is detrimental to their livelihood.

If retailers like Gamestop don't promote the PS420 as much and actively try to turn customers to the Wii U this will severely hurt 3rd party sales on the PS420, so even if they want the PS420 to succeed because they hate the used games market, they may end up being forced to fold just because people aren't buying their games as much.

I don't know if you ever heard of DIVX, but it was a DVD player thing which came out a decade ago from Circuit City which wasn't quite a DVD but it was similar. You didn't actually own the DIVX discs, and you could only watch them for like 24 hours and if you wanted to watch them longer than that you had to hook the player up to a phone line or internet and pay for more time. The market rejected it, and the whole thing was a huge failure which cost Circuit City hundreds of millions of dollars. So I can see something like this happening again if Sony and/or Microsoft attempt to pull this crap. The market would reject it and they would lose so much money they might be forced to go the way of Sega. Then the entire market will belong to Nintendo, until Apple and Steam enter the race.

[Spak-Spang]

You know, I understand developers not liking the Used Game stores.  Basically used game companies are screwing companies out of their hard earned money, and NOT providing gamers a large enough discount to really warrant buying used.  It is that frustration of saving less than 10 dollars, but hey that is something...or supporting your favorite developer. 

However, I wanna know what happens with game rentals then.  I always loved being able to rent or even borrow my friends games, but if this system treats that game like demo then that sucks.  Or how about if I bring my game to my friends house...do I have to log in online to confirm it is a game I bought and registered on my account?  This just doesn't seem doable...specially because what happens if your friend isn't online. 

This will not happen...and if it does happen it is the worst move for the business.  I know developers are hurting from loss of sells from used games, and rentals/ borrowing games...but this is not the fix.

[Adrock]

Hmm, I don't know... If 3rd parties slowly cut out Nintendo in an effort to curtail used games, they might have the upper hand. Will people really boycott Sony and Mcrosoft if they're selling the only consoles with all the games? Boycotts can work but it requires a united front. I remember just last year when people were claiming that they would boycott Skyward Sword and future Nintendo games until the Rainfall games were confirmed to be brought over. I kept thinking, "You're not boycotting ****." And they didn't. Skyward Sword sold as expected and GameStop and Xseed came to the rescue. I know I'm being cynical but I have more faith in the power of an alluring product than I do in people's so-called values (in this instance specifically). I would expect most people to fold and begrudgingly support a system and cause they don't believe in because ultimately the outcome is just less convenient.

Just for clarification, I think cutting out used games is a bad idea. Sometimes I decide at a later date that I want to try a game and it's out of print. A used copy is my only recourse. Buying an additional pass from the publisher to "unlock" a game is fair but not fair. Ultimately, none of this ensures that companies make better products. It ensures that they get to protect their profits without the promise of quality. That's what I like about the culture of trading and buying used games. I can get some value from a purchase I regretted which honestly is more a proviledge than a right. Still, we live in an imperfect world. The system is broken, publishers are getting the shitty end of the stick but their solution is flawed. I'm not sure how to fix it either because one side will always benefit more.

[Ceric]

Renting games, outside of Gamefly, is relatively dead. 

Don't kid yourself if you think GameStop wouldn't sell the PS420 if they didn't support used games.  That would be effectively cutting 2/3rd of there console market away.   They wouldn't do that.  If it was MS or Sony I could see them cutting there losses on one of them, but both no way.

Though consider this.  MS and Sony either lose money or barely make anything on there consoles as hardware on average.  If someone just bought all there games used, which happens, they have effectively lost money on that whole console sell.  Now if both of them force you to have to pay there cut, which is what unlocking a used copy amounts to, then the person who bought only used could possible not be just a loss for them.

Its business pure and simple.  Even Nintendo isn't fond of the Used market and has made that known.  Every Used game sold is less money for Platform holder.  Nintendo makes money on average on every piece of Hardware sold, so just selling you a console is enough for Nintendo to make money.  You could never take it out of the box, so of course they be more lenient on Used games because they don't cause outright losses for them like Sony and MS.

I guess all this is to say that even if the ability to buy used games cut Sony and MS console sells by half it would be the less profitable half almost guarenteed.

[Chozo Ghost]

However, I wanna know what happens with game rentals then.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, I think game rentals could still work, but it would be done digitally via the console and its online service thing. You would spend a few dollars, and you could get to play the game for either a limited amount of real world time, or a limited amount of in game time. Then the thing would expire and lock you out unless you paid for an additional rental period.

Actually, this is probably the way all gaming is headed anyway, because if you read the fine print we never actually own the games, we only own the discs they are on, so according to those terms the game companies legally can shut it down or lock us out of it anytime. You have to figure a game like Madden is already like that at least when it comes to the online aspect of it. We can only play that for maybe 3 years online before EA shuts it down, and then our only option is to plop down $60 for the current year's Madden game. If you think about it, its kinda like renting the game. For $60 you get about 3 years of rental time before the game is obsolete and broken.

Just for clarification, I think cutting out used games is a bad idea. Sometimes I decide at a later date that I want to try a game and it's out of print.

Its a bad idea for you and for me, but that's our problem. To the game companies it isn't a bad idea. But one positive thing in our favor is that it is Gamestop's problem, so we have this big 800 lb Gorilla on our side. We are just little piss ants who no one cares about, but Gamestop can duke it out with those big entities on more or less even terms. They aren't doing it because they care anything about consumers, but because it is in their own interest. Fortunately this time around their interest is also our interest.

Don't kid yourself if you think GameStop wouldn't sell the PS420 if they didn't support used games.  That would be effectively cutting 2/3rd of there console market away.

It would be cutting 2/3rds of the consoles away, but not necessarily 2/3rds of the market away. If the Wii U has 90% market share (not likely, but possible) then the PS420 does not represent 2/3rds of the market, so cutting them out wouldn't be a big deal.

The Wii U will have a year or two head start over the competition so its a fact that it will have the lion's share of the market, and by the time the PS430 shows up they will have an uphill battle to catch up. My point is that if Gamestop and other retailers shun them then its going to be very difficult or even impossible to ever catch up.

[bustin98]

All the publishers have to do is give Gamestop a bigger discount on purchasing new games so they have a higher profit margin. Right now, they make, maybe, $10 on a new game purchase. Imagine if that was increased to $25 per new game. That would put it in line with used games, near about, and still sell 'demo' copies where the cost of a new license from the publisher+cost from Gamestop is still less than buying new. People bringing in used games would just make less on the deal, but what other alternatives are there... ebay, but thats still the case today.