Topic: The Controller As The Console

[MaryJane]

I wasn't going to make a thread about this, until I read this at IGN:  http://gear.ign.com/articles/116/1162204p1.html

Though many were quick to liken the concept to the Dreamcast, we've since learned that the intended purpose for the display may be far more complex, working simultaneously with the console to bring interactive elements and even stream full games to the controller...
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[/size]A dual 2.4GHz and Bluetooth system would also support the claims that the controller could allow users to play games without the use of a TV, making it a handheld tethered to the range of the 2.4GHz transmitter, of sorts. If video and audio are simply transmitted to the controller itself, it could effectively end battles for living room TV usage or splitscreen multiplayer.

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[/size]Now, their idea is much simpler than mine of having the controller be fully portable with like 2 or 3GB of memory on board. What if Cafe games were designed so that you could take small pieces of the game on the controller? It might not work for every game, but it would be a great competitive advantage to offer people full fledged games on the go that they were already playing at home. I also think this is why the 3DS needs to be useable as a controller, and the controller needs to have StreetPass functions.
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[font='helvetica neue', arial, sans-serif][/size]But, let's say Nintendo goes simple and it's more like IGN's idea, and you can simply stream your games to the controller. Still cool, useful for multiplayer perhaps, but it to me, it's just so short sighted. I say put everything in the controller, make the system a hub, and go balls to the wall. If all they do is allow for the controller to take the next two hours of Paper Mario Galaxy RPG with you to play on the way to work, at lunch, and/or on the way home, that'll be good.[/font]

[broodwars]

The problem with your idea is that if Nintendo were to do that, there would be no point to ever purchasing a Nintendo handheld ever again.

[BlackNMild2k1]

A better idea would be to have the game have 3DS mini-games/portable versions on the disc that it can then transfer to the 3DS for you to take with you. Like the Dreamcast VMU but much more complex and graphically pleasing.

[broodwars]

A better idea would be to have the game have 3DS mini-games/portable versions on the disc that it can then transfer to the 3DS for you to take with you. Like the Dreamcast VMU but much more complex and graphically pleasing.

Eh, I don't know.  Sony already tried something like that with the Playstation Minis, which you can play (now) on both the PS3 and PSP and those have never really taken off.  Maybe Nintendo could pull it off with more advanced games and more popular gaming devices, but history has shown (with the PSP and DS) that console and handheld players tend to have different needs.

[Stogi]

I think that having a controller that only streams games or the images of games is not shortsighted, but incredibly innovative. What you want, MJ, is almost a Netflix like service where you can access all your games from everywhere. I think that's a cool idea, and probably one we'll see soon, but I don't think you realize the potential for what you called "simple".

I have always thought it would be cool as **** if someone created an AR soccer game. Well if the rumors are true, that game could finally be made. Imagine, you and your friend are sitting across from each other pointing your controllers at the table in between you. Your screen brings to life a soccer stadium, with roaring fans and an opening fire works celebration that fly into the middle of the room. Soon the game starts and you're battling your friend for possession. You intercept a lazy pass from a defender and are on a break away. Filled with excitement you stand up and move in for a closer look. It's one on one with the keeper and the moment of truth is near. You fake a shot, fooling the keeper to dive, and touch the ball once before striking the ball with incredible power. It flies and flies and flies right into the stands. The fans disappointed, yell out a loud "Ahhh!"

Now how sick would that game be? The same could be done for almost all sports games.

[Mop it up]

The controller as the console = Game Boy

[BlackNMild2k1]

A better idea would be to have the game have 3DS mini-games/portable versions on the disc that it can then transfer to the 3DS for you to take with you. Like the Dreamcast VMU but much more complex and graphically pleasing.

Eh, I don't know.  Sony already tried something like that with the Playstation Minis, which you can play (now) on both the PS3 and PSP and those have never really taken off.  Maybe Nintendo could pull it off with more advanced games and more popular gaming devices, but history has shown (with the PSP and DS) that console and handheld players tend to have different needs.

It's a connectivity extra, nothing that needs major attention, and just because Sony did it and it didn't take off doesn't mean that Nintendo couldn't do it better and all of a sudden it's a new major feature.
Sorta like how Sony was playing with Eyetoy for years and then MS steps in with Kinect, and lots gamers probably wouldn't even remember the similar games for Eyetoy back in the day on PS2, but will have all sorts of fun with Kinect as if it's never been tried before.

As far as MJ's idea (the way Stogi explained it) of Cafe OnLive... we aren't ready for that. baby steps. There is not enough FREE wireless internet infrastructure blanketing most any region to make that a realistic plan. As far as just "copying" a portion to take on the go, 3DS is the better option for that, and improved connectivity is the best way to make it happen.

[Snake-Arms]

I think that would be inevitable self-ownage on Ninty's part as that would certainly cannibalize the sales of their own handheld.

[MaryJane]

@Unagi
That would be cool, but even in your example, the TV become irrelevant. All you need is the controller and the system hub, all I'm saying is why not take that one step further, and if they don't they are making the simpler version and not just a simple game. I meant in no way meant to call the idea itself simple, as it would be awesome for a whole host of reasons, and even with your example, it still gives great credence to the 3DS being a controller, and if in the final version, the controller can't work outside the house, it would still be cool if the controller had StreetPass options.

@Those who think it would hurt the 3DSs market
Nintendo is not going to make a $200 controller. Maybe $100 (and the hub costs $200 for a grand total of $300) and it wouldn't have all the features of the 3DS, including 3D. The controller could have mobile versions of the system hub's chips (ala desktop vs. laptop GPUs) which would cost Nintendo less, because they would be ordering so many more of them and the mobile market is where every chipmaker and their cousins are pushing for right now. A single screen controller that can only take a few hours of full game, and play 'simpler' eShop games (maybe it will be in 3D?) does not compete with the 3DS, especially when that controller is made to more specifically be used with a home console, and the portable features are an added bonus, whereas the opposite is true of the 3DS, because it doesn't even have TV out.

@BnM
1st post: But why not just do that with the controller without any physical media? They could just include a 'digital copy' that can take out an upcoming portion of the game you're playing.
2nd post: Japan has plenty of WiFi, and Nintendo is a Japanese company, and Japan is also a place where the handheld is more popular than the console. America's big cities are catching up (if only ridiculously and horribly slowly) with Wifi, and every non-farming neighborhood in America has a Starbucks and/or MacDonalds within reasonable range. The 3DS is a good option to take a portion of Cafe games with you, but why not both? The controller has a screen, it would be a horrible oversight on Nintendo's part if the controller and the 3DS can't talk to each other.

Another thing I thought of, is the motion controller aspect. I'm thinking the handles detach from the screen, and become a nuchuck, Cafemote, duo, which could then also be used with the screen propped up with a kickstand on the battery pack. That's a lot of moving parts, so maybe not, but if they maintain their level of quality in parts, it could work.

[Ceric]

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@Those who think it would hurt the 3DSs market
Nintendo is not going to make a $200 controller. Maybe $100 (and the hub costs $200 for a grand total of $300) and it wouldn't have all the features of the 3DS, including 3D. The controller could have mobile versions of the system hub's chips (ala desktop vs. laptop GPUs) which would cost Nintendo less, because they would be ordering so many more of them and the mobile market is where every chipmaker and their cousins are pushing for right now. A single screen controller that can only take a few hours of full game, and play 'simpler' eShop games (maybe it will be in 3D?) does not compete with the 3DS, especially when that controller is made to more specifically be used with a home console, and the portable features are an added bonus, whereas the opposite is true of the 3DS, because it doesn't even have TV out.
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But that would cut into sales of the 3DS and move it into the more hardcore territory.  Buy a 3DS for $250 or buy a Cafe for $300 that not only allows me to play the casual games I want to portably but, also hooks to my TV and let me play Party games with others.  If I was the WiiSport/Brain age crowd the extra 50 would probably make sense over the dedicated 3DS.

[Ian Sane]

I think putting controller ports and TV/Out on a handheld would do the job of a "controller as the console" perfectly well.  Now the idea of streaming to the controller screen to allow you to move around your house like you've got a laptop makes sense.  There is a limitation on hardware with a handheld and anything really impressive is going to eat batteries and cost a lot to slim down to a good size.  So having a "hub" is a logical way to do it.  But if the controller is actually the console then it is pretty much just a 3DS with less options for portability.  I figure such a device would bomb because there is really not much of a market for it or it would kill off the 3DS.

I want a console because I want to play on a TV in my living room.  I don't think console gamers really want to use a little personal screen because if they wanted that they would be handheld gamers.  This isn't the age of the Game Boy with four shades of a green.  Handheld systems are pretty impressive and you can get deep games that compare to console titles on them.  So if you just want to play by yourself on a little screen the 3DS or PSP are perfectly sufficient.

I figure in the future handhelds and consoles will be one in the same - they'll just have TV/Out for those that want it.  Maybe Nintendo is anticipating that future but the whole point is that it is ONE system then.  There is no point in having the 3DS if Cafe is already a suitable handheld/console in one.

I figure this is either for Crystal Chronicles kind of stuff or for "console laptop" functionality where you can take your console game away from the TV if you wish.  But both ideas sound like they would have much more limited appeal then Nintendo is banking on (OH NOES I'm tying up the TV, except this isn't 1956 so I, like, have MULTIPLE TVs in the house).  But as long as you can't just leave the house with the Cafe controller and continue to play then the 3DS still has a reason to exist.

[Adrock]

I suppose it could but for it to work, there would have to be a clear distinction between a 3DS game and a Cafe game. Games on one platform would have to undoable on the other platform. However, I feel like there was a clearer distinction between DS and Wii than 3DS and what Cafe is rumored to be like. Imagine trying to put Wii Sports on DS. You'd have a mediocre game.

Even though there are certainly people who have both handheld and console, Nintendo is trying to position their handhelds as something that you (singular) own whereas their consoles are for you (plural). The idea behind it makes sense. Obviously, the manufacturer wants to justify the existence of 2 products and the easiest way to do that is by trying to have it appeal to different demographics. In this instance, handheld will always outsell console because individuals own handhelds and households own consoles. I just don't think Nintendo has it all figured out yet, specifically the part where the console can be for you (singular). For many people, the console is theirs alone and no one else uses it. It's a delicate balance for sure.

The point of that explanation is that the person who alone owns the console may never own a handheld system... ever. Taking the controller that doubles as a console may be appeal to this person since (s)he won't ever have to choose between handheld and console because (s)he'll only own the console. So, in this case, Nintendo's handheld market wouldn't be affected since this gamer would never own a 3DS to begin with.

Is it practical? I don't know. I'm not getting into that. I'm still on the side of wanting the controller to just be a controller. The most I would want it to do is play VC/Ware titles and even then I'd rarely if ever use it for that. When it comes to gaming on the go, I don't even really do that. Gaming is something that I do at home. When I'm out, I'm out and I don't think about playing games. Still, I eventually plan on getting 3DS so if the choice ever came up, I'd bring the 3DS to go and leave the Cafe controller at home.

[Stogi]

I think we are marginalizing the screen to simply a screen and nothing more. Don't forget, the rumors also suggest that it functions as a touch screen and has a camera.

I also think that being able to plug in headphones into the controller so you don't disturb anyone is a feature most would employ but wouldn't specifically ask for.

And again, although you may not see it being used more than Crystal Chronicles, I can easily see the added benefit in mainstream genres like FPS's and Sports; e.g. being able to see what your teammate sees in online coop or being able to select plays in private. It's not a killer app feature, but I think it has that added 'wow' effect that is oh so important these days.

Nintendo is a company that doesn't let ideas die. So if we look at the 3DS, what ideas can we ascertain from it that might be useful in console gaming? A touchscreen is an easy one and so is two screens. But I think what might be the coolest feature is AR. AR is hip and trendy enough that if Nintendo used it in a meaningful manner, it could go right along motion gaming as a worthy and new feature. No other company offers it, so Nintendo, again, would be the first. And it's all about being the first.

Being the first game console maker to allow you to take your games away from the TV, to enjoy outside on the porch or in your bedroom is huge. Again, you may not see it that way, but it's pretty revolutionary. You think people have the patient, money and time to either take their system to another room just to play it or buy a secondary handheld just to play games on the go. Maybe someone might actually like not doing that or maybe not want to buy a completely new system (that doesn't have their game in the first place) to play around the house.

And once again, Ian, honestly, since you don't want it I think it'll be successful.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I figure this is either for Crystal Chronicles kind of stuff or for "console laptop" functionality where you can take your console game away from the TV if you wish.  But both ideas sound like they would have much more limited appeal then Nintendo is banking on (OH NOES I'm tying up the TV, except this isn't 1956 so I, like, have MULTIPLE TVs in the house).  But as long as you can't just leave the house with the Cafe controller and continue to play then the 3DS still has a reason to exist.

OH NOES this is 2011 & I have 24 different cables behind my TV, do I really want to go behind there and mess with that? No, well then it's a good thing since I can take my game into any room of the house I want using the screen controller.

Ah dammit, I just wanted to play to play a few VC games, but "so and so" are playing something I don't want to play.... well it's a good thing I can grab a spare controller and fire up that VC game anyway, and I can go play it in the kitchen while I cook.

Oh I wish games like Starcraft would come to the Café, but dual analog is too slow and pointer just doesn't suit the game. Oh, it's a good thing this controller also has a touch screen which can function as a mouse on the big screen. That makes it perfect for lots of RTS games like Command & Conquer, Starcraft & Warcraft. (hopefully it's actually a multi-touch)


Let's also not forget that the 3DS is designed for super portability.  Being able to stuff it in a pocket or a small purse and pull it out when it would be useful, as opposed to a tablet, Laptop or in this cast the Café controller which would require something more to carry it around due to it's size, can't be taken for granted. There is also the fact that there isn't a single rumor of the Café controller being 3D, which would mean that the 3DS still has the portable personal 3D screen market locked down for the moment.

And again, although you may not see it being used more than Crystal Chronicles, I can easily see the added benefit in mainstream genres like FPS's and Sports; e.g. being able to see what your teammate sees in online coop or being able to select plays in private. It's not a killer app feature, but I think it has that added 'wow' effect that is oh so important these days.

It's the type of feature, that once you get used to it, you take it for granted. You don't realize how useful it was until you don't have it anymore.
You play Madden 2014 on the Café with 1 of your friends, and you each have your own screen. You pick plays, draw your own audibles on the fly and use the touch screen to adjust player positions.
Then you go to your friends house and play Madden 2014 on the PS4 and get frustrated when he sees what play you are picking (or has a good idea because he can see what on the screen). He knows when you are calling an audible, and you have to create it before the game, so he knows what that looks like too. and you have to constantly shuffle players to put them in the places you want and therefore wasting lots of time.
These may not be the best examples, but that's because I have no idea what a second screen will be used for, but I know that if used correctly and innovatively, you probably won't want to go back. Especially when you can just get up off the couch and continue you game in the bedroom with nothing more than a quick pause and screen stream. There is so much potential to be had in what we are hearing that it's hard to imagine how it can all be used.

[Ceric]

If anyone needs a clear cut example of a game that would benefit from a screen in each controller: Pokemon Stadium N64 or any Football game.

Nintendo is not the first to the AR Party.  Thats been a white whale for Sony for a long time.  EyeToy and Eye of Judgement says Hi.  Not to mention Kinect.  Just no one has had much success with it.  Why?  Because its never really been a good feature.

[ThePerm]

yeah also, its weird that such a strong brand name as the Gameboy.....just disappears.

[BlackNMild2k1]

If anyone needs a clear cut example of a game that would benefit from a screen in each controller: Pokemon Stadium N64 or any Football game.

Nintendo is not the first to the AR Party.  Thats been a white whale for Sony for a long time.  EyeToy and Eye of Judgement says Hi.  Not to mention Kinect.  Just no one has had much success with it.  Why?  Because its never really been a good feature.

Or because no one has ever really done anything compelling with it beyond a glorified tech demo.
TBH, I'm not really sure what you could do with it besides a glorified tech demo.

yeah also, its weird that such a strong brand name as the Gameboy.....just disappears.

I guess they felt the name was a little too gender defined with "boy" in the name.

DS is sexless yet sexy... but sadly 3DS has no games

[MaryJane]

Honestly, I think just having a screen on the controller opens up a **** load of cool possibilities, and then taking that further, streaming games to the screen, and/or maps, and play selection screens, is another great idea, and will do a lot. I'm simply hoping that Nintendo, in their effort to keep up with an ever changing market (especially with the move to mobiles in Japan), also allows you to take the controller outside to play Cafe games.

Really the idea comes from the name of system itself, and the purported 3DS connectivity. To get a true 'cafe' experience, one would have to join others in another location, and I can't see how to do that without a special controller. Now again, maybe the controller can just speak to the 3DS and do StreetPass, which would still be good, but I just want them to take it one step further. It isn't too late for MS and Sony to add screens, a camera, and rear trackpad to their controllers, what Nintendo needs is a new strategy, and a console controller would be a good place to start imo.

Maybe it will just start with baby steps and there'll be no separation between the next DS and home console, but I'm hoping they significantly narrow that gap with the Cafe, then close it all together next-gen.

[Ceric]

If anyone needs a clear cut example of a game that would benefit from a screen in each controller: Pokemon Stadium N64 or any Football game.

Nintendo is not the first to the AR Party.  Thats been a white whale for Sony for a long time.  EyeToy and Eye of Judgement says Hi.  Not to mention Kinect.  Just no one has had much success with it.  Why?  Because its never really been a good feature.

Or because no one has ever really done anything compelling with it beyond a glorified tech demo.
TBH, I'm not really sure what you could do with it besides a glorified tech demo.
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Exactly, the only great use I've ever seen AR used for is:  Directions and Giving people information (like ratings, what people do, Part Identification, etc.)
Thats what AR is good for.

[Ian Sane]

And once again, Ian, honestly, since you don't want it I think it'll be successful.

Probably a fair assumption. 
 
Seriously though I think people would like it but Nintendo probably thinks this is going to be the big difference maker that sells systems like hotcakes.  I don't think it's THAT kind of feature.  I figure it's something people will like to use but I don't think it would influence one to buy the system by itself.
 
It ain't motion control.  People saw that you waved your arm and the character on screen did the same thing and they wanted it and it makes perfect sense why they would.  "You can play your console anywhere in the house!"  Yeah, that's a pretty neat idea but will it cause a frenzy like motion control did?  Probably not.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The original rumor is that there is another surprise that no one wants to ruin.

That might be the big "hook" that gets everyone excited.

[nickmitch]

The last "big surprise feature" of a controller was the WiiMote's speaker, IIRC. So, I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one.

[Adrock]

I still think the speaker was an awesome idea that was horribly, horribly underutilized. Not a game changer by any means, but still a really cool feature. I hope Nintendo brings it back and gives us a higher quality speaker.

[ThePerm]

lol holograms come out of the controller is that it hahaha