Topic: Project Cafe & Pre-E3 HYPE Thread

[Mop it up]

Nintendo never released anything for the third port on the GameCube, and I've heard that it was actually removed from later models but I haven't found a picture to confirm that.

Sega tried the console add-on thing and we all know how that worked out for them. Although the CD add-on sold decently, it's because it was a new thing at the time and there wasn't really anything else to compete with it. The 32X add-on couldn't compete with the new systems of the time, or even with the SNES which was busting out impressive games using on-cartridge chips like the Super FX chip. Sure, the 32X was still more capable than the chips added to SNES games, but you didn't need to buy a clunky, expensive add-on for them in order to play them. Add-ons have never really been successful. And before anyone points to sales of the N64 Expansion Pak or the Wii Motion Plus, those are accessories.

[Ian Sane]

I wonder how the 32X would have done if the Saturn was not released around the same time.  It was an unnecessary product.  Why would you need an add-on to keep your Genesis relevant when the Genesis successor is here?  If there was no Saturn and updating your Genesis with the 32X was the successor then maybe it would have gone somewhere.  At least then it would have had a purpose.

I don't think a console add-on is a good idea but I think the concept can be done better than how it has worked in the past.  Actually the Famicom Disk System might be the place to take inspiration from.

[nickmitch]

There should not be two different versions of the Wii 2. That would just be completely retarded.

That seems to be working out okay for the Xbox 360. They've actually had quite a few versions over the years, but generally no more than two were maintained at a time.

I think he meant in the sense that one works better than the other. With the 360, the differences were no more than hard drive size and an HDMI port. Nothing major. The PS3 is similar in that regard. I have to agree that having a model with more ram/better GPU/something not superficial would be stupid, unless Nintendo can handle it better than they handled the M+.

[Chozo Ghost]

Well, later models of the Genesis were superior to early models because they had faster processors. But the excess power was never actually used, so even though it was there it was mainly just because it was cheaper for Sega to use those processors then the older ones used in the original models.

Also, the DSi has more power and more RAM than the original DS models, but this isn't actually used except for the web browser and perhaps in some DSiware games which could only be played on the DSi anyway.

[Chozo Ghost]

If there was no Saturn and updating your Genesis with the 32X was the successor then maybe it would have gone somewhere.

Look up the Sega Neptune on Wikipedia. The Neptune would have been basically a Genesis, 32X, and Sega CD fused together into one console which would have resulted in a 32-bit CD based system which although may not have been as powerful as the Saturn, it wouldn't have been too far off, and most importantly it would have maintained compatibility with the existing library of games. Had Sega went this road instead of veering off in a completely new direction I don't doubt they'd probably still be in the hardware business to this day.

The nice advantage of an all in one Neptune system is it wouldn't have pissed off the fanbase who had already invested in the 32x and CD addons, because it would be like the Motion+ thing where people who previously invested in that were fine because they could still use it even though an all in one Wiimote+ came out later on.

[Kytim89]

"Well, later models of the Genesis were superior to early models because they had faster processors. But the excess power was never actually used, so even though it was there it was mainly just because it was cheaper for Sega to use those processors then the older ones used in the original models."
 
Sony and Microsoft might do this with their systems and expect third parties to keep up if the Super Wii gains too much momentum.

[Ymeegod]

It's not what I'm talking about, you're not going need (it's not going be required) the extra GPU to play the games.  It's just going turn on extras, it's going be similar to an low grade PC vrs an high grade one.  The game is going be available to all users just the presentation is going change.

It's no different then switching between resolution on the current generation, some gamers don't have HD's but they are still playing the same game.  Or switching between 480I and 480P on the GC. 

That's what I'm talking about, giving players options. 

[Ian Sane]

The nice advantage of an all in one Neptune system is it wouldn't have pissed off the fanbase who had already invested in the 32x and CD addons, because it would be like the Motion+ thing where people who previously invested in that were fine because they could still use it even though an all in one Wiimote+ came out later on.

Yeah that actually would be a good way to go to the next generation.  Make it so that people can either buy a brand new system or buy an upgrade to their existing system for less money.  As long as it is the same format, it's the exact same thing with no userbase split.

[Stogi]

That sounds very PC like. I think it's a terrible idea.

[Ian Sane]

With PCs it's like a new upgrade every year and you can upgrade a combination of many different things which can make it complicated.  I'm talking about ONE upgrade and that's it.  That really doesn't have any of the potential issues that a PC model would have.

[Louieturkey]

That's intriguing.  Release the Cafe next year for $350.  Then in 2014 when the PS4 comes out, release an upgrade that would be about $100-150.  Stop selling the Cafe by itself and start selling the Cafe+ for $350-400 which included the upgrade so all new systems sold would have it.  Then make sure all software would be compatible with both systems unless specifically noted.

I don't think you could do it past one upgrade though.

[Ceric]

32x/Memory XPac/GCN Network Adapter/Wii MOtion+ all say Hi!

I can't think of an example that was really actually successful.

[Chozo Ghost]

The nice advantage of an all in one Neptune system is it wouldn't have pissed off the fanbase who had already invested in the 32x and CD addons, because it would be like the Motion+ thing where people who previously invested in that were fine because they could still use it even though an all in one Wiimote+ came out later on.

Yeah that actually would be a good way to go to the next generation.  Make it so that people can either buy a brand new system or buy an upgrade to their existing system for less money.  As long as it is the same format, it's the exact same thing with no userbase split.

That is what Sega should have done. There was a huge Genesis installed base so having the Neptune be the successor system would have preserved backwards compatibility, so that way Sega would have had the same sort of advantage that Sony did with the PS2 where it carried on the backwards compatibility of the last system and gave it a major advantage over the competition (such as the Dreamcast).

Then Sega's next system after the Neptune could have dropped cartridge support in a similar way that Nintendo dropped the GBA slot from the DSi and 3DS in order to reduce manufacturing costs. But it could have retained support for the Neptune CD games and then built off that to maintain a long line of backwards compatibility which would probably still last today if they had gone this road.

So maybe we have this all wrong and maybe the 32x wasn't what killed Sega after all. Maybe it was the Saturn which killed Sega. The Saturn was a bit more powerful than the 32x, but it was much more complicated to develop for and it also broke all compatibility. So maybe we should be blaming the Saturn instead of the 32x like people usually do for Sega's demise.

[Chozo Ghost]

32x/Memory XPac/GCN Network Adapter/Wii MOtion+ all say Hi!

I can't think of an example that was really actually successful.

How about Kinect? Its sold over 8 million units, hasn't it?

The problem with the addons you cited was that they weren't supported properly. If they were actually treated as the new standard which all games from that point must utilize for that system then they would have went somewhere, but when even the 1st party refuses to give them sufficient support its bound to fail.

I wouldn't say Motion+ is a failure in that sense though. Sure, there aren't a lot of games that make use of it, but that's mainly because there aren't alot of games coming out for the Wii anymore period. But Nintendo has done all the right things with it (short of the actual software support) such as integrating it into the controller by default and making it the new default standard which every new Wii comes equipped with. At least the next Zelda game will support it.

32x and the GCN network adapter are excellent examples of failed peripherals. Both because they didn't become default integrated standards and also because even the 1st party that made them refused to support them. But I maintain that M+ and Kinect are examples of where peripherals have been done right, which shows that the concept can work but it can only work if the company behind it gives full support to it.

[Mop it up]

I thought the 32X was released before the Saturn was revealed, but it looks like that isn't the case. Still, I don't think it would have sold well either way, given the progress the SNES was making without requiring an add-on.

I forgot about the Kinect though. That could be considered an add-on and it's sold pretty well. I'm not sure if it could be counted as an "upgrade" since it replaces the XBox 360 controller and therefore has more limited functionality, but it may still help keep the XBox 360 relevant in the market once Nintendo's next system hits.

Look up the Sega Neptune on Wikipedia. The Neptune would have been basically a Genesis, 32X, and Sega CD fused together into one console

Did you look up the Sega Neptune? It doesn't have a Sega CD in it.

[Chozo Ghost]

Did you look up the Sega Neptune? It doesn't have a Sega CD in it.

Ok... I guess you're right. I wanted to believe it would have so I guess that's why I believed, even though now that I read it carefully I see that would not be the case. That's not to say a 32bit cartridge system would have been a failure though, but it would have suffered the same issues as the N64. Seeing how the N64 wasn't a total failure and actually outperformed the Saturn by a wide margin Sega probably would have been better off with a Cart based Neptune than the CD based Saturn anyway.

If nothing else it would have been easier to develop for and would have more or less kept the existing Genesis install base happy to the point where they wouldn't have abandoned Sega and went to Sony. Sega's games generally tend to be fighting and action stuff, so doing without a CD drive probably wouldn't have hurt them the way it hurt Nintendo, because the SNES was THE RPG system and companies like Square went nuts with the extra storage space CD offered. Since the Genesis didn't really have much of an RPG market and certainly didn't have Square on board, its not like Sega had as much to lose as Nintendo did. Games like Streets of Rage, Sonic, Virtua Fighter, etc. don't really need to be on CD.

However, that's not to say it still couldn't be able to link up with the Sega CD like the Genesis, or that it couldn't have been further revised to have Sega CD built into it. Its a moot argument because Sega scrapped the Neptune idea anyway, but I'm just saying that's how I believe they should have went about it.

[Ceric]

32x/Memory XPac/GCN Network Adapter/Wii MOtion+ all say Hi!

I can't think of an example that was really actually successful.

How about Kinect? Its sold over 8 million units, hasn't it?

The problem with the addons you cited was that they weren't supported properly.
...

List of Kinect Games
List of Playstation Move Games
List of Wii Motion Plus Games
List of 32x Games Made
List of Games Supporting the Expansion Pack for N64

All that preamble was for this.  I think Kinect is a very successful and lucrative PR move.  Great buzz, they make a Profit from each unit, and gives word of mouth.  In those terms I would deem Kinect a wild success and different then the rest of the list but, in actual game support  everything listed above is pretty equivalent in quantity of support.  I mean on the Kinect list I think Virtue Tennis 4 is the only one that interests me but that's just personal taste.

I stand by never seeing a console add on, currently, that really moved the system away from where it was originally.  I think the Kinect has the potential but currently its lost.

Now on the Flipside handhelds are another story and they are very successful with Revisions.  Who here, except for us old timer, really would prefer a DS Phat?

[Louieturkey]

Technically the Dual Shock controller for the PS1 was an add-on that became standard like Motion+. 

[Mop it up]

To my knowledge, there are no PS1 games that require the analogue sticks. Anyone know of any?

[that Baby guy]

Ape Escape.

[NWR_insanolord]

There are a couple. The only reason I remember the game Ape Escape is because I remember it explicitly requiring dual analog. But by and large, most PlayStation games supported the original controller.

[Chozo Ghost]

According to Wikipedia, Sony's EyeToy peripheral has sold 10.5 million units. That makes it successful by peripheral standards.

I also loved my SNES mouse add on from back in the day. It came bundled with Mario Paint and there were only a handful of games that used it, but it benefited those games greatly. This was back long before I had a PC, so this was basically my first experience with a mouse and this was where I played Sid Meier's Civilization for the very first time because it had been ported to the SNES, and fortunately it made use of the SNES mouse. I don't know if that can be considered a success though, but it was a success to me on a personal level.

[Ceric]

According to Wikipedia, Sony's EyeToy peripheral has sold 10.5 million units. That makes it successful by peripheral standards.

I also loved my SNES mouse add on from back in the day. It came bundled with Mario Paint and there were only a handful of games that used it, but it benefited those games greatly. This was back long before I had a PC, so this was basically my first experience with a mouse and this was where I played Sid Meier's Civilization for the very first time because it had been ported to the SNES, and fortunately it made use of the SNES mouse. I don't know if that can be considered a success though, but it was a success to me on a personal level.

I specifically tried to leave out things like the SNES Mouse.  The SNES Mouse, DK Bongos, Dance Pads, Plastic Instruments, Super Scope, etc.  I considered made for a specific game/genre never meant to became the standard but to enhance the system in ways it couldn't be mainstream for a meaningful Niche.  All those I think were reasonably successful and moved units.

I wonder if the that Number is EyeToys in total?  Because the EyeToy was on PS2 and PS3 as well.  I know Sony always wanted to use it for what Kinect is but couldn't get it to that level.   Though I was looking at the Video Chat on the PS3 and that looks cool.  Now if I could do it to at PC like Skype, etc.  it be useful.    Yeah, I say EyeToy is successful from a sales perspective.

[UncleBob]

Did the Gameboy player use one of them?

Yes, but I don't recall if anything ever used the third GameCube port.

Paging UncleBob.. Unca..
 
The Network adapter and the Modem used different ports.  I know you can have a Network adapter and GBPlayer in at the same time, thats how mine is setup so, if the modem and GBPlayer used different ports then the modem be the third one.

Sorry, didn't get this page earlier.

The network (Broadband) adapter and the (dial-up) modem use the same port - Serial Port 1.
The Game Boy Player uses a different port - Hi-Speed Port.
The third port (Serial Port 2) was never used for anything outside of some development systems.  Like Mop it up said, I've heard that the second Serial Port was removed from later systems, but I've never actually seen such a system.

[nickmitch]

If UB hasn't seen it, it probably doesn't exist.