Topic: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!

[SixthAngel]

And yet, Microsoft's network wasn't hacked, releasing the personal data of millions...

Actually, if I remember correctly that's not entirely accurate.  We've had several reported instances of account hacking on XBox Live, as recent as I believe Major Nelson's account being hacked and his identity jeopardized.  There are any number of reasons why we possibly haven't seen worse on 360.  Maybe Microsoft just has their **** together more than Sony (likely).  Maybe all that XBL subscription money has been used to maintain a much stronger security.  Maybe the hackers just haven't been all that interested in Microsoft since they haven't been as adamant about protecting their intellectual property as Sony.  Maybe the hackers are your stereotypical Halo frat boys and don't want to destroy the thing that satiates them every night.  We'll probably never know.

Those involve guessing passwords and doing things like sending emails or messages pretending to be a live rep.  It happens to every network and isn't comparable to having to shut everything down because your company is terrible at security.

[oohhboy]

I don't think devs stayed away from Nintendo because Nintendo wasn't friendly enough, I believe it was more due to the fact Nintendo hasn't had the complete crushing victory with the consoles like it has had with it's handhelds. The handhelds has very healthy support and Nintendo's dominance has shown this time and again.

As much as I like the Wii, I have forgone it this gen in favor of the handheld. That and a good computer bypasses any of the 360 VS PS3 rubbish. I would more than likely get the next Nintendo console and go back to play the backlog of Wii games.

The level of blunder Sony has shown easily places it in the Bush^tm level of Incompetence. It's a multi-leveled shitwich of failure. Transmitting data in clear text. Storing data in clear text. Inadequate intrusion detection. No internal contingencies. No internal security. Non-existant communication and PR control. No plan what so ever.

Even Annon was clever enough to back off when they realised how quickly this would turn ugly. I don't think they backed off to spare the users during their DDoS(Which would have resulted in zero pernament damage), they knew or at least had figured this was going to go nuclear after seeing how much of a house of cards PSN was.

[BranDonk Kong]

Actually, if I remember correctly that's not entirely accurate.  We've had several reported instances of account hacking on XBox Live, as recent as I believe Major Nelson's account being hacked and his identity jeopardized.  There are any number of reasons why we possibly haven't seen worse on 360.  Maybe Microsoft just has their **** together more than Sony (likely).  Maybe all that XBL subscription money has been used to maintain a much stronger security.  Maybe the hackers just haven't been all that interested in Microsoft since they haven't been as adamant about protecting their intellectual property as Sony.  Maybe the hackers are your stereotypical Halo frat boys and don't want to destroy the thing that satiates them every night.  A lot of things are possible, and we'll probably never really know.

That was through social engineering. I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject - Sony fucked up big time BIG TIME, as in 77 fucking million people are now potential id theft victims. This has absolutely nothing to do with 3rd parties or social engineering to get a single person's password to their XBox Live account. This is about how someone had 3 full days to steal, again, 77 fucking million people's credit card info, birthdates, passwords, addresses, secret question and answers, etc, etc. Get with it man. It's not that they didn't go after Xbox Live because they love Microsoft, it's because Sony's security FUCKING SUCKS.

[broodwars]

I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject - Sony fucked up big time BIG TIME, as in 77 fucking million people are now potential id theft victims. This has absolutely nothing to do with 3rd parties or social engineering to get a single person's password to their XBox Live account. This is about how someone had 3 full days to steal, again, 77 fucking million people's credit card info, birthdates, passwords, addresses, secret question and answers, etc, etc. Get with it man. It's not that they didn't go after Xbox Live because they love Microsoft, it's because Sony's security FUCKING SUCKS.

I'm not changing the subject, only pointing out that massive ***-ups have happened from every company this generation and in previous generations.  Remember the Red Ring of Death, which was a pretty massive engineering screw-up from Microsoft that cost themselves and so many gamers so much money?  Look, bicker over the scraps of information we get all you want.  I really don't care.  I've taken steps to protect my identity in response to this, and I urge you to do the same.  We're not even sure of the fallout yet (all we've heard so far are "possibilities" and conjecture), and you guys are wringing your hands and proclaiming the End of the World. 

I'll make my decision on what I personally am going to do from here for my gaming needs when we have concrete reports on just what has gotten out, as well as what will happen as a result.  You are free to do as you wish, and I wouldn't blame anyone for never buying a Sony product again.  We could see the worst case scenario and 77 million people suffer identity fraud.  We could see a few isolated cases of it, and we could see no verifiable cases at all.  In these latter two cases, I would treat them as I did Sony's 2005 CD Rootkit debacle: I can admonish Sony for their screw-ups and negligence, but at the end of the day it doesn't affect me (I never purchased the affected CDs) so I don't care so long as this crap doesn't happen in the future.  And I repeat: as fun and important as it is to harp on Sony for all this, one or more  hackers are the ones who actually stole your information if they stole it at all.  You can blame the door company for manufacturing a faulty door, but in the end it's the thief that's responsible for robbing your house.

I've spent the last week engrossed in "what Sony should have done" and "what they didn't do."  I'm tired of it all.  I've had enough, and I've done what I could to brace myself for anything bad that may come.  I just want PSN back up, and I want them to show me that they're building a stronger network and making ammends for their mistakes.  At this point, that's all anyone can ask since the consequences of Sony's screw-ups are out of anyone's hands right now besides law enforcement and the legal system.

[Chozo Ghost]

Oh, great! Thanks Sony, you stupid mother fuckers!

My favorite part:

It is also interesting to note that they waited until after the press conference for their soon-to-be-released PlayStation tablet and after the stock market has closed.

I guess that would be Microsoft since I'm currently on the fence about whether it will be worth it to spin the wheel on being a Nintendo customer again.

But you're on a Nintendo fansite. And you said it was "odd" that I owned a PS3 despite hating Sony. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you not liking Nintendo, but isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? If you don't like Nintendo yet you're here, then why is it wrong for me to not like Sony yet own a PS3? Also, now that you're experiencing first hand some of the disregard Sony has for its own consumers aren't you coming around a little bit to my point of view and understanding a little bit better why it is that so many people dislike them as a company?

As for being on the fence, why must it be either or? There's no reason you can't own two systems, or even all three. As long as you can afford it thats probably the best way to go because that way you have access to everything that gets published.

ETA: I really miss TJ Spyke's involvement in these conversations. His unconditional support behind anything and everything Sony does or doesn't do would really be very entertaining right about now. I'd like to hear what he has to say in Sony's defense.

[broodwars]

I guess that would be Microsoft since I'm currently on the fence about whether it will be worth it to spin the wheel on being a Nintendo customer again.

But you're on a Nintendo fansite. And you said it was "odd" that I owned a PS3 despite hating Sony. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you not liking Nintendo, but isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? If you don't like Nintendo yet you're here, then why is it wrong for me to not like Sony yet own a PS3? Also, now that you're experiencing first hand some of the disregard Sony has for its own consumers aren't you coming around a little bit to my point of view and understanding a little bit better why it is that so many people dislike them as a company?

Alright, so long as we're being open here the main reason I come to this site is for the Radio Free Nintendo podcast.  The podcast is what brought me to this site, my very first post here I believe was in response to one of the podcasts, and it's still the most entertaining thing about this site.  Barring that, I have an affinity for some of the folks here on the forums and it's fun to talk about a wide variety of things.  Besides, I don't "hate" Nintendo.  They've just disappointed me far too many times over way too many years that I no longer feel it's viable to purchase a Nintendo console as a primary platform.

And I've never said that I don't understand why you folks dislike Sony.  I just don't care about some of your issues, especially since many of the things folks have complained about never affected me.  I'm in this for the games, and on that angle Sony has delivered this generation in many more ways than I've seen on the other consoles.  From my perspective, for all the screw-ups they're the lesser of the available Evils to me.

As for being on the fence, why must it be either or? There's no reason you can't own two systems, or even all three. As long as you can afford it thats probably the best way to go because that way you have access to everything that gets published.

Because I'm not wasting money next generation like I have this generation by purchasing gaming platforms that don't justify their purchasing price.  I have all 3 consoles, and you know what they are?  2 are digital download platforms (360 and Wii) and there's my PS3 as my main console.  I haven't been wise with my finances the last few years, and I can't afford to do this again until I get much more stable work.  So yeah, next generation I'm looking to only support 1 platform, at least until my life takes a significant improvement.

[Chozo Ghost]

If Nintendo can get its act together with that Cafe thing and manage to get serious 3rd party support for it then I would be happy to have that as my one and only console. Then I won't have to deal with Sony and its shenanigans, or MS and its RROD and paying for online. I agree with you about the Wii because I was disappointed with it as well, and that's why I had to get another console. But it wasn't always like this. I don't know if you were a gamer back in the days of the NES and SNES, but back then Nintendo ruled and if a 3rd party made a game in those days odds are it was on those systems. It was only with the N64 that things went downhill.

So my hope is Cafe can bring Nintendo back to how it used to be. I hear its going to be modeled in appearance after the SNES, so that's a promising sign.

[broodwars]

I don't know if you were a gamer back in the days of the NES and SNES, but back then Nintendo ruled and if a 3rd party made a game in those days odds are it was on those systems. It was only with the N64 that things went downhill.

Yep, I've been a Nintendo gamer since I was 5 in 1988 (birthday's tomorrow, btw.  Man, I feel old), and to me the SNES was the epitome of everything that was great about gaming (its RPG library has only been seriously challenged by the PS2).  While there have been plenty of good games on the Nintendo systems that have followed, they always come with a price (lack of variety, lack of 3rd party support, lack of games period for extended periods of time, etc.).  Hence my growing apathy with Nintendo in general.

So my hope is Cafe can bring Nintendo back to how it used to be. I hear its going to be modeled in appearance after the SNES, so that's a promising sign.

Believe it or not, I would be ecstatic if the Wii's successor did just that.  If we got the second coming of the SNES, that would be a dream come true.

[bustin98]

[Because I'm not wasting money next generation like I have this generation by purchasing gaming platforms that don't justify their purchasing price.  I have all 3 consoles, and you know what they are?  2 are digital download platforms (360 and Wii) and there's my PS3 as my main console.  I haven't been wise with my finances the last few years, and I can't afford to do this again until I get much more stable work.  So yeah, next generation I'm looking to only support 1 platform, at least until my life takes a significant improvement.

I can understand that point of view. I've gone through stages where each console was my main console. Right now, it seems to be the PS3 also. The Xbox has turned into an awesome media center and if I could have one in every room I would. The Wii has now been moved into my girls' playroom so they can watch Netflix. I want to play the Wii, but during the day the sunlight plays with the pointer, and at night I have friends online that I would rather play with who don't own a Wii. If the new Nintendo delivers a system that doesn't chase away developers I'm for it though. There's bound to be some games that won't be compatible with the other systems and worth the time to play.

Edit: And you feel old for being born in 1983? In two years I'll be 40. Yikes.

[Chozo Ghost]

The one thing which is making me very optimistic about the 3rd party support on Cafe is that its supposed to be so similar in architecture to the 360 which means multi-platform support is trivial to achieve. Of course, you never know what 3rd parties are going to do and even if its something trivial that doesn't necessarily mean they will do it, but at least this time they have fewer excuses than they did before.

[Stogi]

Broodwars: I can understand your willingness to argue for your favorite company this generation, but damn, this is by far the worse thing to happen to console consumers since its inception. But what made it even worse was Sony's attitude. A levee broke, yet they had no idea why consumers were drowning. I know Nintendo and Microsoft are internally trading high-fives, as it makes anything they've ever messed up seem minuscule.

But you're right, maybe nothing will come of this. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, however. Like I said before, there are easy ways people can still protect themselves, but again, that's not the point -- Incompetence is.

[Chozo Ghost]

Remember how the PS3 validation thing ended up being the number 4? That shows the sort of incompetence at work in Sony. The PS3 security was easily breached, and now the PSN has been easily breached as well. These are two separate and distinct entities, yet both were breached easily and in short order.

So its not like this PSN thing is a one time thing. It happened with the PS3 hardware, and with god knows what else.

[MegaByte]

Remember how the PS3 validation thing ended up being the number 4?

To clarify, it wasn't literally the number 4 -- that was just taken from a comic as a simplified example of how they screwed up.

[Chozo Ghost]

Speaking of comics, I don't know if you guys have seen this or not but its pretty funny.

[Plugabugz]

I can't defend Sony for their big wet failure, but situations like this is why i insist everyone (everyone if you don't like them) to use a credit card when online. Even if you're under 18, just get a prepaid one.

I'm going to play it safe and cancel/replace that card this week.

At this point now, to me at least, it's less about "how did this happen?" but more into "how can i take precautions?"

[Enner]

Indeed. It would be worse if your debit or checking account is stolen.

[NWR_insanolord]

I had to replace my debit card in March, and never got around to updating my PSN account, so the card I have in Sony's system was canceled a month ago.

[NWR_insanolord]

This came up in a staff email thread, and I made the following comment:

I think it says something that even after all this, I'd still trade the Wii's online system for PSN.

[Ceric]

You know what really stinks is I bought Portal 2 last week because I specifically wanted to play co-op with the people here while they were playing and my Son was away.  It had to go down the only week I cared but, at least Netflix still works.

[broodwars]

Well, as I suspected would happen, we now have a Class-Action Lawsuit filed against Sony regarding the PSN Security Breach.  You can read more of the details at the link I provided, but in general the lawsuit seeks to obtain the full extent of the damages this hacker made, as well as ascertaining what precautions (if any) Sony took to prevent it, with potential monetary damages depending on what information got out.

Incidentally, in the UK we also have the government Information Commissioner's Office (yes, yes...the team ICO jokes write themselves) also beginning a full investigation into Sony's weak PSN security, with allegedly potential fines of 500,000 pounds if they don't like what they find.

[Plugabugz]

Well, as I suspected would happen, we now have a Class-Action Lawsuit filed against Sony regarding the PSN Security Breach.  You can read more of the details at the link I provided, but in general the lawsuit seeks to obtain the full extent of the damages this hacker made, as well as ascertaining what precautions (if any) Sony took to prevent it, with potential monetary damages depending on what information got out.

Over here it's more serious as Sony is bound by law under the Data Protection Act to keep information safe and if ANYTHING gets out they're going to get huge fines.

[broodwars]

Well, as I suspected would happen, we now have a Class-Action Lawsuit filed against Sony regarding the PSN Security Breach.  You can read more of the details at the link I provided, but in general the lawsuit seeks to obtain the full extent of the damages this hacker made, as well as ascertaining what precautions (if any) Sony took to prevent it, with potential monetary damages depending on what information got out.

Over here it's more serious as Sony is bound by law under the Data Protection Act to keep information safe and if ANYTHING gets out they're going to get huge fines.

Yeah, I was modifying my original post to include that information and a link to the Destructoid article about it when you posted that.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I saw a news article that mentioned something along thelines if this potentially costing Sony $24billion.

Its sounds ridiculous, which is why I didn't post it, but it seems like this could still be a very costly mistake.

[Chozo Ghost]

$240 million makes more sense. I could even believe $2.4 billion maybe, but $24 billion is ridiculous. The article probably meant $2.4 billion but forgot the decimal.

Wouldn't it be something if this whole mess actually drives Sony out of business?

[MegaByte]

Actually, it was talking about worst case credit card losses based on poor assumptions, including that every PSN user had a credit card on file.