Topic: Donkey Kong Country Returns Impressions

[Peachylala]

No, roll jumping is a crucial mechanic and part of every balanced breakfast.

Is there a bagel or muffin on the side with that?

[King of Twitch]

This isn't my table.

[Stratos]

No, roll jumping is a crucial mechanic and part of every balanced breakfast.

Is there a bagel or muffin on the side with that?

Yes. A Blueberry one.

And the roll was very essential to the first DKC. Try and get 100% without it. And, no, you didn't beat DKC if you didn't 100% the game.

[Peachylala]

Oh, I know you can't complete the game fully. I completely agree with that statement. Just saying if you are person who doesn't worry about finding everything, the roll isn't that important.
 
In NSMBWii, you waggle when you have a Propeller Suit so you can fly. A little shake, and you're up in the air. Continue to shake? You just spin. The game doesn't abuse waggle (despite what some people may claim), and neither did the Galaxy games.

[broodwars]

The game doesn't abuse waggle (despite what some people may claim), and neither did the Galaxy games.

Any game that uses waggle for waggle's sake is abusing motion control.  The spin attack in Mario Galaxy and the propeller jump in NSMBW could have been mapped to buttons and would only have played better.  I just don't see how shake=action is more immersive, let alone immersive enough to make up for the loss of responsiveness while the Wii interprets your motions.  Hopefully waggle will something that will die with the next generation of motion control, because it's the worst thing to come of this console generation IMO.
 
It's just bizarre that this far into the Wii's lifecycle, Nintendo still seems to be treating games like it was the Wii launch window, where every game has to have some kind of shoe-horned motion control.  Remember when the DS launched and everything had to be touch screen and blowing into the microphone, and nowadays the various features of the handheld are usually only used when they're needed and add something?  When are we going to see that on Wii?

[Retro Deckades]

Any game that uses waggle for waggle's sake is abusing motion control. The spin attack in Mario Galaxy and the propeller jump in NSMBW could have been mapped to buttons and would only have played better.

The issue is that there just aren't enough buttons on the Wii remote to make those actions easy, intuitive, or comfortable enough to perform. Sometimes it's a necessity. (At least when not using the classic controller).

The root of DKCR's problem is that run and roll are mapped to two different buttons. In the original games, they were one and the same, so you could be running along, build up a head of steam, and then lift your finger ever so slightly to press the button and roll while moving at a good clip. Since roll is assigned to a different function in this game, you'd have to completely remove your finger from the run button in order to press it, which would result in losing your momentum.

There are possible solutions to this, but not many that seem intuitive and comfortable. If there were classic controller support, the best they could do would be to map roll to a shoulder button. As far as holding the remote horizontally, it'd either be roll with a slight flick of the controller, or reach behind and hit the B trigger.

[broodwars]

The root of DKCR's problem is that run and roll are mapped to two different buttons. In the original games, they were one and the same, so you could be running along, build up a head of steam, and then lift your finger ever so slightly to press the button and roll while moving at a good clip. Since roll is assigned to a different function in this game, you'd have to completely remove your finger from the run button in order to press it, which would result in losing your momentum.

That's the thing, though: why are Run and Roll mapped to two separate buttons when they worked just fine as one button with 2 different functionalities in the SNES games?  Does Nintendo think that today's Blue Ocean gamers are too stupid to figure out that one button has two different meanings depending on context, when gamers in the 80s had this stuff nailed?  This also happened with New Super Mario Bros. Wii, where the run and grab functions of one button were turned into one button and waggle.
 
I'm not saying that Wii games never need to use motion control to supplement the lack of buttons (though they could always just use the Classic Controller).  But this is Donkey Kong Country, not Steel Batallion.  They could have mapped these functions to existing Wiimote + Nunchuk or even Wiimot-only controls fairly easily and it would have played fine.  But they went with waggle instead.

[Stratos]

All the casuals I've played NSMBW with always get hung up over the grab function. "You have to do what with the controller?" Not a good way to attract people to the game.

I enjoy the waggle in a number of games. No More Heroes slashes and wrestling moves, Mario Kart Wii's shaking to pull of tricks and wheelies, Mario Galaxy spin, propeller cap in NSMBW; I like all of those. But there are times where it feels clunky and cumbersome like grabbing in NSMBW. I've gotten used to grabbing but it still feels kinda funny. I imagine that is how it will turn out in DKCR- you get used to it but it just never sits right with you.

[Retro Deckades]

I had actually forgotten about shaking the remote to grab in NSMBW. That was quite dumb. I thought the propeller remained perfectly functional, however.

[Ian Sane]

As for Ian, I could do without the repetition of the same argument every time Nintendo does...well...anything

Since Nintendo never changes the same criticisms still apply, unfortunately creating repitition.  This controller stuff, friend codes, lack of demos, third party support - the same argument gets made each time because Nintendo NEVER addresses them.  No more waggle = no more complaints about it.
 

Remember when the DS launched and everything had to be touch screen and blowing into the microphone, and nowadays the various features of the handheld are usually only used when they're needed and add something?  When are we going to see that on Wii?

Someone mentioned the lack of buttons which is likely part of it.  The unique features of the DS compliment a conventional control design, on the Wii the unique features replace it.  But then Nintendo did release those Zelda games that control with only the touchscreen fairly recently.  Those control like awkward DS launch games.  It's kind of weird how they just suddenly decided to go back to forced touchscreen usage out of nowhere when that was no longer the trend.
 
Though third party support is better on the DS then on the Wii so third parties have more influence on the DS.  They moved away from forced usage so that became the trend on the DS.  The Wii has not had that as Nintendo is clearly the trend-setter.
 
But the thing is that Nintendo also provided options for SSB Brawl, Mario Kart Wii and Punch-Out.  Much like how Phantom Hourglass's wacky controls came out of nowhere so did Nintendo suddenly not providing the option for conventional controls in their Wii games.  I wonder if Nintendo made some decision at that point to really give these control schemes the hard sell and not allow people to use anything else.

[Mop it up]

And the roll was very essential to the first DKC. Try and get 100% without it. And, no, you didn't beat DKC if you didn't 100% the game.

Sorry, but I don't bother to 100% games with poor design. Randomly jumping into pits with the hopes of finding useless bonus rooms is not my idea of a good time.

All the casuals I've played NSMBW with always get hung up over the grab function. "You have to do what with the controller?" Not a good way to attract people to the game.

I haven't seen anyone I've introduced to the game who wasn't confused by that. They'd see the little icon that appears over the character's head when he's near a grabbable item, and they'd ask "What's it say to do?"

[Stratos]

Usually you can see a little part of hidden barrels if you are looking closely. I pulled 101% in the first game without a guide and no tedious backtracking to fall down random pits. A lot of them I discovered by accident.

[NWR_insanolord]

The waggle in Mario Strikers Charged is great. It wouldn't be as fun to do big hits on people if it were a button instead.

[Retro Deckades]

Sorry, but I don't bother to 100% games with poor design. Randomly jumping into pits with the hopes of finding useless bonus rooms is not my idea of a good time.

useless bonus rooms = true

rest = fail

[Mop it up]

A lot of them I discovered by accident.

So you aren't very good at the game and accidentally fell down all the pits? 

[Stratos]

I mean by just playing the levels normally I found most of them. And I don't think I replayed a level more than a time or two to get the '!' mark.

[Mop it up]

I was curious, so I decided to look up a FAQ and see what kinds of ways the bonus rooms are hidden. There are actually only a few that require blind jumping, but I did notice there are a lot that have you bust open walls, some having clues they're there and some that don't. Cranky gives out hints though and that seems to be the only way to find some of them besides holding a barrel up to every wall.

Still, I think the main reason I didn't feel compelled to complete the game 100% is because there aren't any bonus stages or anything for doing so. DKC2 unlocked levels using the coins hidden in the bonus rooms, so those secrets were worth finding. Though I also enjoyed searching for them for some reason, even though I did not in the first game. Maybe that's because I knew there was a reward, but I still think they were more cleverly and thoughtfully hidden in DKC2 and 3. And so I hope DKCR takes more pages from those two games than the first; isn't DKC2 largely considered the best game in the series?

[Stratos]

I agree that DKC2 was the most enjoyable for myself. Though I did use a guide to 100% (was it 102%?) that game.

[Mop it up]

Yes, it was 102% in the second game. I don't really understand the extra one and two completion points, you can't complete a game more than 100%. The third game has 103% completion of course, although apparently there's a hard mode that'd give you 105% if you beat it.

[Ian Sane]

Back when DKC came out I think the secrets were more of a fun bonus.  The idea was probably more to provide a way to get extra lives and such.  The OCD 100% game thing wasn't a big priority then.  There was more focus on beating a game.  I don't think the design was that the player would want to specifically seek out 100% of the secrets.  Back then a game's replay value was based on how fun it was to play through the game.  A lot of games from that time period can be completed in one sitting if you're good enough.  You were supposed to get replay value out of DKC because it was fun as hell to play, not because you needed to search every nook and cranny to get 100%.

DKC 2 however very specifically wanted the player to find all the secrets to unlock new levels.  That was a probably a reaction to people going nuts trying to find all the secrets in the first game so Rare decided to make it more of a focus.  There is no real reward for getting 100% in DKC and I think if Rare specifically designed the game with that in mind they would have offered more of an incentive.

A lot of the old Mario games would have secret 1UPs.  They didn't put those in the game specifically for players to seek out 100% of them.  I figure the first DKC was the same idea.  They're just hidden power-ups to help the player so if you can't find them all it doesn't matter.

[Stogi]

Has anyone played it yet?

Just saying...

I feel like rolling with a flick could work extremely well. People have pointed to Galaxy as an example and I agree. I may have spun on accident a couple times due to my excitement but whenever I really needed to spin (let's say to give me that extra bit of height), it always worked. ALWAYS. There wasn't a single time that I flicked the remote and the game didn't respond according.

Maybe I'm just optimistic and I really like Retro, but I think this game will be no different. Who knows? Maybe it just feels so intuitive that they found no reason to support any other schemes.

[Ian Sane]

People have pointed to Galaxy as an example and I agree. I may have spun on accident a couple times due to my excitement but whenever I really needed to spin (let's say to give me that extra bit of height), it always worked. ALWAYS. There wasn't a single time that I flicked the remote and the game didn't respond according.

It seems to be different for different people, which makes sense since it involves a more physical involvement.  It isn't precise enough for me.  I will encounter times where it doesn't work or it goes off when I don't want it to.  Perhaps that's just the way I naturally move my arms.  I don't think this is something where it is fair to assume that because you can do it fine everyone else is in the same boat.  My brother for example just can't seem to keep still and he's just making Mario spin all over the place at the wrong time.  Playing NSMB with him added this new frustrating dimension of random chaos.  He got us killed with accidental spins mere seconds from defeating Bowser TWICE.
 
That's why we should have options.  If it's a problem for the individual, like it is with me and my brother and some other people on this forum, then we could pick something that works better for us.  It's a completely reasonable request.
 
If Microsoft didn't offer keyboard shortcuts for Windows anymore and told everyone to just use the mouse do you think that would fly in a million years?  This is the exact same thing.

[Stogi]

It's not the exact same thing. Your blowing this way out of proportion.

I don't think this is something where it is fair to assume that because you can do it fine everyone else is in the same boat.

I don't' think it's fair the other way around. Again blowing this out of proportion. I feel that a small fraction of the population feels the way you do.

What I will concede is this, we are both assuming how well or terrible these controls will be based on previous experiences.  There's no reason to bitch especially because you haven't even played it yet.

[Ian Sane]

I don't' think it's fair the other way around.

How is it possibly not fair the other way around?  Even if the amount of people that find it difficult to use motion control are a minority providing the OPTION affects you in no way whatsoever.  So how is requesting the option not fair in any way?  We're not saying to take motion control away, we're saying to provide the option to not use it which Nintendo has even offered in the past.

[Stogi]

I don't think it's fair to assume that because you mess it up, a vast number of people do too.

I'm not disagreeing with you in that Nintendo should provide more options. I'm with you on that one. I'm just saying you could really like it and find it easy to use making all this moot.

And if you don't, well I'm sorry. Don't buy the game and go on complaining. That's the only fair you'll receive.