Topic: Wii Successor and Glassess Free 3D: How Will It Work?

[Ian Sane]

I think it's a little premature to suggest that Nintendo should make the vitality sensor standard in every Wii 2 when they have not even released it for the Wii 1 yet and have not announced any games for it.

Putting something like that in there would raise costs.  Do you want controllers to cost more because of some feature that Nintendo has never even used before?  Would you pay more for the console itself?  What if Nintendo had to sacrifice something else to fit it within the price structure they want?

There is some flexibility in putting every feature under the sun into the standard hardware but it all adds up in cost so you have to pick and choose what should be standard and what should be a peripheral.  The vitality sensor isn't even something you can actively control a game with.  You can't control a game with your heartbeat so 99.999999% of games would not need the feature.  It would at best be an interesting extra, like a more obscure version of rumble.

[MaryJane]

Ian is right about it being a little premature, but I still like the idea of having it built in. It could be something very cool for developers to work with. The Wii2, and its developers, would benefit greatly from having it at the onset.

My personal idea for the vitality sensor revolves around a game I'm still pissed has not been given another chance: Eternal Darkness.

What if the new ED (or for that matter any horror game, and btw what happened to that black and white horror game that was announced for Wii way back?) used the vitality sensor to realize what 'horror' moments scared you most, and then based on that was able to scare you more by scenes specifically tailored to your fear.

For me, the 'scene' that scared me most in ED was when I walked into a room and my head and limbs seemed like they were being shot off by some unseen force. Now, the second time that happened I was prepared, but if the game had utilized other character affecting 'scares' as opposed to environment alteration or things popping out I would have been a lot more scared than I was during other hallucinations in the game.

[BlackNMild2k1]

The cost of something like that I wthink would be very minimal and the whole point of including it like that was that it's so late in the Wii game, why spend money on yet another peripheral that will only have 1 or 2 games released for it, especially when EA has already beat you to the punch on a finger clip pulse reader, when you can make it a major bullet point for the next system instead.

There have many ideas on what the V sensor could be used for and some of it sounds interesting, so if Nintendo could make it a standard in every controller bought and the concept catches on through unique software designed to take advantage of it, then that is just one more thing the competition will have to figure out how to copy.

Hey Ian, I heard Nintendo's Revolution is gonna use motion controls and a pointer. It actually looks kinda like a remote control.

Putting something like that in there would raise costs.  Do you want controllers to cost more because of some feature that Nintendo has never even used before?

yeah you're right, that does sound stupid.....

[Stogi]

'What will Nintendo do next generation?' is a question that should be preceded with 'Who will Nintendo focus on next generation?'

It's strange, being a fan of Nintendo all this time, but if I were head of Nintendo I would pretty much abandon us. I would take this generation and damn near repeat it with a few tweaks. **** enthralling HD adventures. **** huge online FPS. **** classical gaming as a whole (except for our brands of course). The real money maker is suckering in non-gamers. I'd tell my R&D to come up with a new, fun, if shallow, gimmick for our system. Keep the costs low, tweak the problems of last generation a bit, and ship it out.

Sony and Microsoft will try to cater to both, and that is why their gimmicks will fail. Let's face it. The Wii was hardly successful because of us. It was successful because Wii Sports was fun, but more importantly, fun and  accessible.That is why I would cater exclusively to non-gamers. As for our brands, I would shoe-horn motion controls in the best way, but still shoe-horn them in.

And I hope not, but I think Nintendo is about to do that. Their handhelds are for the gamer, but their consoles will now and forever be for the family. Because that was always their goal, even if they only just reached it with the Wii.

[ThePerm]

i dont think a future controller would need the condom, it would have some contour and ridges built in to avoid slippage and create the right friction.

[Ian Sane]

I think anyone who thinks the vitality sensor, or something like it, will be used for horror games and such is being way too optimistic.  Nintendo will use it for exercise games and squat else and then third parties will use it for exercise games and squat else because they all just follow Nintendo's lead.

What innovative things has Ninendo done with their "real" games this gen?  We just get the same old franchises in that department.  The new ideas are used in Wii series.  Nintendo's priorities are such that they come up with these unique accessories entirely for casual based stuff.  They come up with a cool feature and their first thought is mini-game comps and simplified controls for beginners and casuals.  They don't make the Wii Wheel and bust out their own Gran Turismo, the purpose is to make Mario Kart more accessible.  They have the most obvious FPS control scheme and have only used it for Metroid Prime, which they have since rejected in favour of Other M.  They have this balance board and they don't use it for 1080 Snowboarding but rather an exercise title.  So don't have any delusional idea that if they put in the vitality sensor as a standard that they're going to revolutionize survival horror.  That is not Nintendo's focus.

[ThePerm]

The player has to grip the controller, so if there are two contacts on either side of the controller that the player grips, than that would act as the vitality sensor without having to wear that stupid ass thing on your finger. This is something that could be added very easily. It might also be why suddenly the idea just disappeared this e3, they have a better implementation of it that will work out well in the long run.

[Kytim89]

The player has to grip the controller, so if there are two contacts on either side of the controller that the player grips, than that would act as the vitality sensor without having to wear that stupid ass thing on your finger. This is something that could be added very easily. It might also be why suddenly the idea just disappeared this e3, they have a better implementation of it that will work out well in the long run.

What I was talking about was how the built in vitality sensor could record how the player responds to different sensations created by the artificial muscle tissue technology I mentioned before.
 
Imagine playing Zelda HD and Link is standing in a flowing stream. The artificial muscle would vibrate in a soothing fashion representing flowing water or the feeling as if you are putting your hand into a flowing stream. The V-sensor then responds to the player's sensation by either increasing the flow of water or the wind, which create another sensation for the AM to register to the player.
 

[ThePerm]

um yeah, my last post was in response to Ian...um...

[ThomasO]

what happened to that black and white horror game that was announced for Wii way back?

You mean Sadness? It was cancelled around a year ago. They couldn't make any deadlines because nobody on the development team could decide what they wanted to do.

[MaryJane]

Yes I did mean Sadness, and now I remember it being it canceled.

Nintendo has been pretty short sighted with its peripherals, but part of that is what someone alluded to saying Nintendo shouldn't worry about core gamers and focus on casuals. A casual is glad to buy a WiiFit and use the balance board only to exercise, since that is why they bought it, while core gamers clamour for more uses.

Nintendo probably (and I think correctly) assumes that things that appeal to the casuals won't appeal to the cores. I sure as hell didn't buy any extra WiiWheels, and have only once used it.

So why would Nintendo make core games for a casual peripheral?

The fps argument is invalid because Nintendo does not make fps's. The Prime series was a one off thing, and it ended just as promised.

WiiSpeak is a valid argument, because even as a casual peripheral it seems to be failing.

Another problem is 3rd parties. That Tony Hawk game could have used the balance board, but the popularity of Rock Band and Guitar Hero has shown the benefit of releasing your own peripherals (despite Harm onix hemorraging money).

I think (and hope) for a lot of reasons the vitality sensor will be different, including that EA beat them to the punch with the exercise angle.

[Guitar Smasher]

What innovative things has Ninendo done with their "real" games this gen?  We just get the same old franchises in that department.

You're mostly correct on games to date, but don't forget that Zelda SS is coming.  If they nail it, this game could potentially have a profound impact on where the Wii goes in the next few years.  Sadly, I don't think it will be a "mega-hit" - but only for reasons unrelated to motion control (i.e. the same reasons TP and WW failed to move any systems).  However, and this relates to discussion in other threads, I don't think you can say the Wii is finished, until after this game has been released.

Secondly, I disagree with your assessment that we only get the same franchises for "real" games.  What do you call Wii Sports/Resort?  Now before you call it a "casual" title, let me ask you how you would categorize Pilotwings?  To me, these games are very much similar in spirit.

We don't get enough original games, I agree, but there have been some.

[NWR_insanolord]

Skyward Sword has the potential to justify the Wii's existence: a full gamer game (Zelda for gods sake) with total motion control. The thing is, if they nail it, there's really nowhere for the Wii to go from there. There's no way to top that. That could be a part of why Nintendo's been saving it for last, and evidence that they've got a new system coming soon after since it's all downhill from there.

[Stogi]

^^^

That made absolutely no sense. Seriously, did you even write it?

SS to justify the Wii's existence? Here's a better question. How many Wii's have sold world wide?

And if SS nails it, how is that a bad thing? If anything, it'll show these developers how to do a "gamer's game" right.

[DAaaMan64]

Galaxy just swooped in and raped the entire platforming genre. I'd say Nintendo innovated there.

[Guitar Smasher]

It wouldn't be downhill from there, in your scenario insanolord.  Instead, it would be confirmation that dedicated motion control in core titles can move systems.  If anything, it would encourage Nintendo to put Motion+ into any games that could benefit from it.  It might even inspire them to create new original core games around Motion+, although the timing of such things would suggest that they'd likely be ready only when the next console is out.

[NWR_insanolord]

^^^

That made absolutely no sense. Seriously, did you even write it?

SS to justify the Wii's existence? Here's a better question. How many Wii's have sold world wide?

And if SS nails it, how is that a bad thing? If anything, it'll show these developers how to do a "gamer's game" right.

I meant justify it to gamers, not to the general population. And it's not a bad thing, it's a great thing, but it sets the bar higher than anybody else is going to be able to reach, and therefore it will be time to move on to something new.

Galaxy just swooped in and raped the entire platforming genre. I'd say Nintendo innovated there.

I wouldn't really call Galaxy innovative (at least not the first one); it's just stupendously good.

It wouldn't be downhill from there, in your scenario insanolord.  Instead, it would be confirmation that dedicated motion control in core titles can move systems.  If anything, it would encourage Nintendo to put Motion+ into any games that could benefit from it.  It might even inspire them to create new original core games around Motion+, although the timing of such things would suggest that they'd likely be ready only when the next console is out.

I'm not saying there couldn't be good or great games after Zelda, just that there's no way to top it with the current hardware

[Stogi]

I still don't understand your logic. Mario 64 set the bar extremely high, yet we still got games that utilized the analog stick well.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'm not saying there couldn't be any good games past that point (though there won't be, because publishers aren't going to greenlight big MotionPlus games until seeing something like Zelda succeed, and, like Guitar Smasher said, those games would undoubtedly be pushed to later hardware due to their development time). What I'm saying is that it means it's time for new hardware, because Zelda (assuming they nail it) will have achieved everything possible with the current system.

[Ian Sane]

What do you call Wii Sports/Resort?  Now before you call it a "casual" title, let me ask you how you would categorize Pilotwings?

The Wii Sports games are intentionally restrictive and shallow in depth to specifically attract casuals.  It has a baseball game where you can't even play nine whole innings or field!  The options are very limited and each mini-game is very limited in scope with little variation.  Pilotwings in comparison does not intentionally restrict its complexity or depth to attract a wider audience.  Pilotwings is not dumbed down, Wii Sports/Resort is.  I'm not even saying that to insult the game, I just can't think of another way to describe it.  The game is intentionaly simplified for a target audience that Nintendo feels will be turned off if the game has too much complexity.  That is what makes a game casual, when you restrict the game's potential on purpose to attract beginners, unskilled players or children and do not provide options for skilled or experienced players.
 
Original Tetris is not casual.  Tetris with unlimited spin and no way to turn it off is.

[Kytim89]

@ Ian
 
Nintendo would be smart to not go with Wii Sports 2 as a single game compilation of various sports that offer limited playability like the original Wii Sports, but offer each sport as a full game. For example, Wii Sports: Baseball has the feel of a real base ball game. Nintendo did release their own seperate sports titles for the NES and they should do the same for the Wii 2.
 
Also, a quote from some one named EdEN from the Infendo forum has made me think about the Wii 2 being HD:
 
"Nintendo has already stated that their next console will indeed be HD… but if you read between the lines that means it will display at 720p at most thus reducing costs. Displaying at 1080p and 60 fps would drive up the price of the console to consumers and 720p 60 fps is just fine for gaming."
 
When I realized that the Wii 2 was going to be HD, my ambitious side told me that they would go all the way to 1080p, but after I considered Nintendo's business policies towards cheapness it seems more in Nintendo's nature to stay in the range of 720p. However, if Nintendo wants third party support to increase then 1080p sems the way to go for their next console.
 
As for Skyward Sword being the Wii's swan song, what better title to close a consoles reign than a Zelda title? Of course this game does not mean the end of the Wii, but it does represent a bridge between the Wii and its successor in regards to motion controls. Of course it seems as if third parties are done with original titles this far and the only thing we will get from them is sequels to all the titles we have already gotten from them thus far. If this is the case, I would rather wait for DKCR 2, Goldeneye 2, Epic Kirby 2 and Epic Mickey 2 as launch titles for the Wii 2. As for Nintendo, they may have not given up on the Wii, but I would bet that they are alreadt planning more for the Wii 2 in terms of development then Wii itself.

[Ian Sane]

When I realized that the Wii 2 was going to be HD, my ambitious side told me that they would go all the way to 1080p, but after I considered Nintendo's business policies towards cheapness it seems more in Nintendo's nature to stay in the range of 720p. However, if Nintendo wants third party support to increase then 1080p sems the way to go for their next console.

This depresses me a little.  We're all talking about the next gen and all have our ideas of what Nintendo should or shouldn't do.  What I realistically want is for Nintendo to be as core-gamer-friendly as the other consoles are.  This means more options and flexibility and, most important of all, healthy third party support.  But when I think about it the odds of Nintendo achieving this is just insanely unlikely.  I would actually consider it a fluke if Nintendo pulled such a feat off.  The reason why is it is so un-Nintendo.  Nintendo's problems are pretty much all self-inflicted.  It isn't like the isolated mistake here or there or outside factors screwing things up.  It's almost always Nintendo being lazy or cheap or stubborn or greedy or intentionally ignorant about something.  If Nintendo were actually capable of achieving with the Wii 2 what I would like them to, they would have done it like ten years ago with the Gamecube.  There has never been any real obstacle to overcome.  The oppurtunity has always been there.  Nintendo, as they are now, is just incapable of doing so.  It would take some sort of major change in direction from the company to do so.  I'm talking like management shakeup with people from completely outside the company coming in.
 
This 720p thing?  Yeah, they'll do it.  They'll cheap out.  It may cost them third party support but they won't care.  It isn't how they think.  I feel I must assume that Nintendo will do the absolute bare minimum.  The hardware will be the cheapest and weakest they feel they can get away with.  All features will be implemented in a unique Nintendo way, regardless of whether or not it makes sense to do so.  The first party lineup will be family-friendly with any games targetted outside this demographic being a token effort at best.  All unique features will be designed based on their gimmicky marketing potential instead of practical use and Nintendo will shoehorn said features into every game they can.  NCL will call all the shots and design everything entirely based on the current market in Japan.
 
What I am hoping for is that none of these will be crucial.  The hardware won't be so bad as to make it completely incompatible with multiplatform releases (the Cube was multiplatform friendly), the "Nintendo way" of doing routine things like going online will be easy enough to adapt to, the controlller still functions well as a controller even with gimmicks attached, and third parties will make games in all genres and styles without Nintendo having to lead the way (in other words despite Nintendo's marketing being nearly entirely focused on casuals, third parties for some reason don't pigeonhole the system as being only for casuals).  I'm hoping for a perfect storm of sheer luck where the console overcomes Nintendo's incompetence.  I do not trust Nintendo for a second to do this right.  Even if they fluked out wouldn't the next gen just have the same problem?  There is no way they could flukily avoid self-sabotage two times in a row.
 
They have to actually change.  They have to admit their faults and fix them.  But why would they do that?  The Wii let them avoid addressing any of their faults by finding success with a market that didn't know better or care.  Did Nintendo address any of the problems with the Cube?  Did they address any of the problems core gamers had with them?  No, they found success with a new audience instead.  And if this audience will make them profitable next gen, then there is no incentive for Nintendo to change.  Thus it will be a happy accident if the Wii 2 addresses the shortcomings of the Wii 1.  To change, Nintendo would have to be facing death.  They would only change in a way that pleases core gamers if the support of core gamers was their only way to stay in business.

[Kytim89]

@ Ian Sane
 
"They have to actually change.  They have to admit their faults and fix them.  But why would they do that?  The Wii let them avoid addressing any of their faults by finding success with a market that didn't know better or care.  Did Nintendo address any of the problems with the Cube?  Did they address any of the problems core gamers had with them?  No, they found success with a new audience instead.  And if this audience will make them profitable next gen, then there is no incentive for Nintendo to change.  Thus it will be a happy accident if the Wii 2 addresses the shortcomings of the Wii 1.  To change, Nintendo would have to be facing death.  They would only change in a way that pleases core gamers if the support of core gamers was their only way to stay in business."
 
The gaming industry as a whole is westernizing and the way I see it is that Nintendo is going to have to adapt to the times in order to survive. They are going to have to have better online, communications and yes, HD, with the Wii 2 if they do not want to end up like SEGA. What has happened is that Nintendo has realized that they can make money via casuals and cheapening their consoles as much as possible, but how long will this last? I do not want them to become the next Sony or Microsoft, but I do want them to evolve their standards not because I am a greedy consumer, but because I am concerned about their life lines.
 
Nintendo has the capacity and enginuity to become the top dog of gaming once again, but they have to break out of their shell first. The only way to break out of this shell is become a hard core developer. They can keep their casual mind set, but they have to attract third parties as much as possible. The only way to attract third parties at this point to make their console with features that are crucial to gaming these days. Nintendo, this is not the 1980s or 90s any more, this is the 2010s and you are a decade behind and it is time to catch up with the industry!

SEGA, SNK and NEC <---- Nintendo ----> Microsoft, Sony and Apple

[MaryJane]

The problem is that Nintendo tried the core gamer approach for years, and it worked until the 64. Then the GC came out, and was everything a developer should have wanted; 7 buttons, lots of power, internet capable, and the best copyright protection available to the disc format. And how were they were rewarded for that? Being called kiddy and pretty much abandoned by 3rd parties.

So with the Wii, Nintendo said, screw you, we're going to do things our way and prove we still got it, and they have done it. Not in a  way that we as core gamers like, but nonetheless they have proved their worth when every was saying they should become like Sega and only do games. Their 'core' games sell like mad, right alongside their casual games. All that's missing is 3rd party developers who had been ready to write-off Nintendo.

Despite all of our complaining and doubt, the Wii still sells strongly, so what reason does Nintendo have to change strategy? Why go crawling to people who didn't want anything to do with their system until it was sold out for two years? Especially when they've manged to do well without them.

Personally, I expect Nintendo to surprise us with the Wii2 just as they did with the Wii, and push the system on that innovation and the promise of great games, just as they did with the Wii. 3rd parties are in third place when it comes to priorities for the Wii2.

I know they consulted developers on the 3DS but I still think that was in response to the recent successes of the PSP and that people are much less likely to have two portables, while buying a Wii for Nintendo games and another console for everything else isn't farfetched.

[Stogi]

MJ has the right idea.

Nintendo has always been about let's make something that everyone can enjoy. With their consoles, it's games that can be played by everyone. With their handhelds, it's games that are for everyone. It's subtle, but the difference is huge.

For consoles, I imagine Iwata barking out orders "Make the game simple and accessible. I want everyone in the house to be able to play it! So even if grandma would like to play, she can. "

For handhelds, I imagine Iwata barking out orders "We need a game for women over 30. We need a game for people who love RPG's. We need a game for etc. etc. etc."

I expect them to ride this mentality till it doesn't work anymore. Then and only then, will they actually cater to console developers.