Author Topic: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......  (Read 33078 times)

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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2010, 04:55:28 PM »
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there is a classic controller if people want to play those games, sure they have to go out and buy it, but if they really like those games than they should.

But that games don't get made in the first place because the classic controller is an optional accessory.  I have a classic controller but it hardly gets used because it isn't very well supported.  And it isn't well supported because it doesn't come with the system.
 
If I could play NSMB Wii and Wario Land with the classic controller, I would, but the option isn't even available.  Having the CC as optional also means that no one designs games with it in mind.  Lets say you wanted these four functions that normally you would map to the CC face buttons.  But you can't get this to work well with the remote-nunchuk combo.  Well then you scrap one of those functions.  You can't make a CC-only game so if an idea doesn't work with the remote-nunchuk combo you don't bother.
 
That's the problem with the Wii from a developer standpoint.  If you can't get it to work with the controller or you can't get it to work on the weaker hardware, you just scrap the idea and not bother.  And then there are these two other consoles that don't have those restrictions so you can just make your game for them, which happens 99% of the time.  The only restriction those consoles have is they don't have motion control... which they now do have.  Even if you discount Kinect, the PS3 offers a developer exactly the same thing the Wii has... plus MORE.  So why make your game on the Wii?  It has the bigger market share but that has had zero effect thus far.  From a business perspective you would assume that the most dev friendly design wouldn't hold so much weight but the thing is, it isn't as if you HAVE to support the market leader to make money.  If you can still make a profit on another console then other factors are going to affect your decision.
 
It may be that, even with the Wii being the market leader, you do not feel that you can make a hit game within the restrictions of the hardware.  But you do feel you can make a hit game on the other consoles and as long as you make a profit, then you've succeeded.  Although I think there's some laziness there, the HD consoles offer what you already know so you can plan things the way you are used to.
 
I think the Wii puts a developer in the mindframe of "okay what game can I make to work with this?"  That's a challenging way to approach things.  I think a more conventional approach is that a dev thinks of a game he wants to make and then decides what hardware to make it for.  The DS initially had some piss-poor games and they were piss-poor because the touchscreen usage was forced.  It was clear that devs were approaching the DS with the intention of making good use of the touchscreen.  The PSP had the better games at first because it was conventional.  But then the DS library vastly improved once devs just started making great games, instead of specifically trying to use the unique features.  Maybe this game uses the touchscreen, maybe it doesn't.  Who cares?  The DS had that flexibility.  You just made the game and using the touchscreen was as optional as using the X button.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2010, 06:53:46 PM »
to be honest there aren't a lot of games i want to play on a classic controller. If Zelda, Mario Galaxy, and Resident Evil 4 work on the Wii controller than all sorts of hardcore games work. 

The games that don't work...well don't make games like that. I mean classic fighters are on virtual console already...so classic controller
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2010, 07:22:38 PM »
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The games that don't work...well don't make games like that.

Well, that's the whole issue I have with it.  What sort of dev wants to hear THAT?

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2010, 07:35:12 PM »
a dev who makes unoriginal games


some of the heavy hitting games that we don't get could be made on Wii without messing with the controls much. There is a clear bias against Nintendo no matter how good the system is. Gamecube had way better graphics and identical controls and it still didn't get every third party game. One could say that the graphics are why Wii doesn't get good games, but that wasn't a factor for ps2. Back in the day they would argue it was because ps2 was the market leader....ok so Nintendo is in their position and they are still getting jipped. Although, to be honest, it isn't effecting Nintendo as much as third parties. Third parties are shooting themselves in the foot with their incompetence, compete bitches!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 07:40:13 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2010, 09:00:38 PM »
Monster Hunter Tri was designed with the CC in mind. In fact, so much so that it was actually bundled with it.
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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2010, 09:02:14 PM »
I think Nintendo actually designed the Classic Controller Pro just for Monster Hunter Tri.
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #81 on: June 29, 2010, 03:04:07 AM »
Right off hand I know Smash Bros. and Endless Ocean 2 make use of the CC as an optional input method. Those are just the ones I can recall offhand, and I'm sure many more exist.
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Offline Dasmos

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #82 on: June 29, 2010, 03:37:07 AM »
He's talking about the Classic Controller Pro, the revision.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #83 on: June 29, 2010, 03:40:01 AM »
And yet, Monster Hunter Tri still uses the Wii Remote's pointer for a couple of things. It's really poor design.

Endless Ocean does not play well with the Classic Controller.

Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #84 on: June 29, 2010, 03:44:36 AM »
The funny thing is, there are a lot of games that should have Classic Controller support but don't, and then there are games like Resident Evil 4 and Pro Evolution Soccer, and now Sin & Punishment 2, which are significantly improved by their Wii controls but still include the option for the inferior Classic Controller.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #85 on: June 29, 2010, 04:53:44 AM »
what about monster hunter can't be done on the wii remote?

up would be triangle, down would be x, right would be circle, left would be square, a would be right top shoulder, b would be right left shoulder, plus and minus could be pause menus, C and Z would be shoulders, and the joystick would be the joystick, if they use the clicks then just rotate some things and use button combinations. 1 and 2 could even do something else. I haven't even gotten into motion control functionality.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #86 on: June 30, 2010, 06:02:20 PM »
If the D-pad takes the place of the face buttons, then what could take the function of the D-pad? The game also uses both analogue sticks. There's a difference between a control setup which functions and a control setup which works well. Monster Hunter Tri has a Wii Remote and Nunchuk option, but it doesn't work very well due to tack-on motion control and too much doubling up on buttons.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #87 on: June 30, 2010, 07:02:30 PM »
i had forgotten about dual analog-ish controlls when i just listed that button map, that throws in a wrench

not a fan of dual analog control setups anyways :P
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #88 on: July 01, 2010, 02:32:23 AM »
I'm not a fan of dual-analogue either. Monster Hunter has clunky controls any way you slice it, but the Classic Controller is the best option.

Offline Stratos

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #89 on: July 01, 2010, 05:40:45 AM »
Having a simple lock-on mechanic with a button to cycle targets would have solved a lot of Tri's control issues.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2010, 06:43:05 PM »
Which type of lock-on, a character lock-on or a camera lock-on? I think a character lock on would restrict movement too much. A camera lock-on, which centers the camera on the monster and rotates around it, would have been very ideal, as well as zooming in/out based on distance from it.

Offline Stratos

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2010, 07:34:10 PM »
That's what I had in mind. It's a pain when a monster rushes past you and you have to wait for the slow camera to turn around to face it again. It's easy to lose sight of your prey.
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Offline Arbok

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2010, 10:09:08 PM »
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The games that don't work...well don't make games like that.

Well, that's the whole issue I have with it.  What sort of dev wants to hear THAT?

Frankly speaking, that's what many should be hearing though. Over time, controllers have gotten way too complicated. We (i.e. those of us posting on these forums) have grown up with them and are used to them, so it's not an issue to us.

To others it is, and there is a large group of consumers who just can't get into games because of complexity in controls. A game should be easy and fast to learn, but complex enough to challenge and make the experience rich.

Wii Sports does this. Mario Kart Wii does this. New Super Mario Bros Wii does this. Their controls are simple, allowing someone to pick it up and play with little instructions, but the depth is there to back it up. We need more games like that. Having watched my girlfriend (who was a relapsed gamer) struggle and get frustrated trying to master the learning curve of a game has opened my eyes that the industry needs to step back and rethink a few things.

Not all games should be simple of course, but far too many fall into the complex category. A lot of developers could benefit from stepping back and asking themselves "is there a way I could make this less complex to control?"
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Offline Crimm

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2010, 05:59:28 PM »
Hopefully, Retro has something announced at e3 that will make us cream our pants.

Just wondering...
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Offline Morari

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2010, 01:25:11 AM »
Having watched my girlfriend (who was a relapsed gamer) struggle and get frustrated trying to master the learning curve of a game has opened my eyes that the industry needs to step back and rethink a few things.

But she's a girl! You can't base your entire opinion on her. She has a genetic predisposition to simply not be very good at videogames... and football... and carpentry.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2010, 03:15:10 AM »
Hopefully, Retro has something announced at e3 that will make us cream our pants.

Just wondering...

nope im still waiting, Retro team B?
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2010, 11:38:42 AM »
I think the key is realizing complicated games with depth do not have to be complicated to control.

However, many games add needless moves, and complexity that do nothing to truly add to the gameplay of a game.  I was playing Modern Warfare 2, and I was confused why I had to push a button to run.  We have analog controllers, build it into that control, and it would have been easier to grasp and play.  That is just one of the many ways that First Person shooters, a genre that should be simple to design and play with limited buttons, is just too complicated and does not add anything new or fun with the complexity.

I challenge anyone that says Super Mario Galaxy isn't complex or rich with its gameplay, but it is also very approachable. 

Offline Dirk Temporo

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2010, 02:59:27 PM »
and it would have been easier to grasp and play.

There's a reason the standard has changed. It's easier to push a button to sprint than it is to try and measure how far you're pushing on an analog stick with a grand total of about an inch of flexibility.
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2010, 03:37:49 PM »
i think if you told the shooter creators about how you could use analog for running it would blow their minds!
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Offline Chozo Ghost

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Re: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2010, 02:06:00 AM »
Having watched my girlfriend (who was a relapsed gamer) struggle and get frustrated trying to master the learning curve of a game has opened my eyes that the industry needs to step back and rethink a few things.

But she's a girl! You can't base your entire opinion on her. She has a genetic predisposition to simply not be very good at videogames... and football... and carpentry.

And Math. How could you forget Math?
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