Topic: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......

[Pale]

Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC. 

Yeah, no.  Most of the buttons aren't readily accessible simultaneously.

Yeah, they are.

Wii: A, +, -, B, Z, C  = 6 easily accessible buttons.

GC: A, B, X, Y, L, R, Z = 7 easily accessible buttons.

Notice how I didn't mention the d-pad which is more accessible on wiimote?

But you also counted + and - which are far from easily accessible.  They are more in line with start and select buttons and thus shouldn't be counted for gameplay.

As for this argument, I definitely agree that the Wii and DS are different monsters.  There is no viable (with significant marketshare) competition to the DS.  The third parties really have nowhere else to go.

I also totally agree that it's the horse power, not the controller, that make third parties hate Wii.  Everyone thinks you can magically just make Wii games but that is just not the case in practice.  Teams are built around using certain modern technologies and ideas.  That is what they are most efficient making.  That is a factor in a cost benefit analysis.  If EA can churn out Dead Space on both 360 and PS3 in a cheaper way than it can on Wii because of their current infrastructure and team skills, they will most likely make more money given that the combined marketshare of PS3 and 360 isn't that far behind Wii.

And please don't just discount my comments by saying games require lesser budgets to make on Wii because it isn't Hi Def blah blah blah.  The reason most of you hate third party games on Wii is because they are of low quality, so if we are going to imagine a world where third parties are putting out big time games, we should assume they are of similar quality as those on the other consoles.


tl;dr version: We all know the Wii is kicking ass in the market. Imagine how far behind PS3 and 360 would be if the specs of the Wii were at least somewhat competitive. Then people wouldn't have near as many reasons to buy the competition.

[Ian Sane]

Again, I remember a whole lot of excitement from devs when the wiimote was unveiled.

But that clearly was all just talk since none of them has expressed this excitement in the form of actual games.
 
I would consider the Wii controller to be the remote and the nunchuk.  You get 1 analog stick, 1 d-pad, 3 trigger buttons, 1 face button.  On the Gamecube you have 2 analog sticks, 1 d-pad, 3 trigger buttons and 4 face buttons.  The + and - buttons are what I would consider administrative buttons like the start button on the Cube.  They are not designed to be easily accessible in the heat of the moment.  Buttons 1&2 also do not count because they are clearly designed to be used either as administrative buttons or as replacements for A&B when used in sideways mode.
 
The Cube d-pad isn't so hot but it is accessible in the heat of the moment.  Even if you exclude it then the C-stick and Wii d-pad could be considered equals.  That still leaves THREE MISSING BUTTONS.  That's a big fucking deal.  Yeah I guess you could make a shake of the nunchuk one and a shake of the remote another but you're still down one.  On the Cube you could use the d-pad as a makeshift four more buttons for lesser used functions.  Even if you use 1&2 or one of the - button you're still missing at least one more button and at this point you're using buttons located under the palm.
 
As a game developer I wouldn't even be cool with mapping analog stick movement to a d-pad or vice versa.  My game's controls are going to suffer.  Mapping a gesture is less precise than a button so if I have to do that I'm compromising my controls even more.  But with the DS everything from the GBA is there plus I have two more face buttons and a touchscreen.  Now they're adding an analog stick thingy.  It just gives me more options.
 
I think when courting devs if you have to give an excuse you've failed.  "Well you could do this..."  Yeah, **** that ****.  If you're really designing something developer friendly you don't have to point out the values of this or that.  You just show it and it speaks for itself.  The 3DS does this.  I don't see any excuses.  Just knowing what it is gives me confidence in it.  I know it won't have control issues, I can tell from the screenshots that we're looking at a major hardware updrade even if a game doesn't use the 3D effect.  It wows me and I haven't even seen the 3D effect yet.  Because it just builds on what has been there since 1989 I don't have to re-invent the wheel or change how I approach game design.  If I'm making a game I can do what I did before or I can do something new.
 
With the Wii you had to rethink how you approached the controls and you could not use improved hardware to do new things.  I look at the DS, 3DS, PS3 and X360 as taking an empty field and making it bigger.  The Wii was taking a football field and turning it into a baseball diamond.

[Guitar Smasher]

If you honestly think that the D-Pad is more accessible on the Wii Remote, or that the + and - buttons even COUNT as "easily accessible," then you my friend have freaky monkey hands.

You can reach the d-pad without taking your thumb off the control stick, unlike GC.

+/- aren't ideal for action buttons, but they don't require much effort to reach.

[TJ Spyke]

Dirk, how could you NOT find the d-pad easily accessible on the Wii Remote? Unless your hands are freaky small (like the size of a 4-year old), then your thumb EASILY can reach the d-pad without moving your hand. Even the + and - buttons can be reached without too much effort.

[Guitar Smasher]

Again, I remember a whole lot of excitement from devs when the wiimote was unveiled.

But that clearly was all just talk since none of them has expressed this excitement in the form of actual games.

Again, correlation does not equal causation.  Just because they don't make games, doesn't mean they don't approve of the controller!
If they didn't like it, why wouldn't they say so?

With regards to the rest of your post, I'm not going to disagree with most of your points.  But I do disagree with how "limited" the overall controller is.  I keep coming back to a single thought: Metroid Prime - a GC game that uses every button on the controller - was ported to Wii with improved controls.  Obviously one example does not cover the whole spectrum of games, but clearly the Wiimote is capable of controlling 95% of games that came before it.  With everyone disagreeing with me over its functionality, I've yet to have someone name a game that couldn't be played on it (outside of your traditional fighters).

[Dirk Temporo]

Dirk, how could you NOT find the d-pad easily accessible on the Wii Remote? Unless your hands are freaky small (like the size of a 4-year old), then your thumb EASILY can reach the d-pad without moving your hand. Even the + and - buttons can be reached without too much effort.

With your hand in an ergonomic grasping position (ie: not the way most men hold beer cans) excepting the possibility that you have mutant thumbs, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to reach any buttons on the D-Pad besides the bottom one without moving your grip, and while you don't have to move your grip to access + or -, they're still well out of the way of being "easily accessible," which is why they have been relegated to pause/menu features. And 1 and 2 are completely non-existent if you're using the nunchuk.

[Adrock]

I have pretty small hands and I can only reach down on the D-pad without having to adjust.

You can reach the d-pad without taking your thumb off the control stick, unlike GC.

In that case, the d-pad on the Wii remote is more comparable to the c-stick on the Gamecube controller so that's not really a fair comparison. I'd honestly much rather have another analog stick than a D-pad.

[Mop it up]

I'm glad we have both an analogue stick and D-pad. Some games simply don't work with analogue; playing Tetris and other puzzle games is a nightmare with that.

[Sarail]

I still think a "breakaway" controller would be amazing for the next console...

[ThePerm]

have you noticed that when some third parties talk about the wii they talk about the controller as if the nunchuck doesn't exist?...its kinda strange

[Guitar Smasher]

I have pretty small hands and I can only reach down on the D-pad without having to adjust.

You can reach the d-pad without taking your thumb off the control stick, unlike GC.

In that case, the d-pad on the Wii remote is more comparable to the c-stick on the Gamecube controller so that's not really a fair comparison. I'd honestly much rather have another analog stick than a D-pad.

Another stick in the place of the d-pad would be almost unusable given the design of the wiimote.  And I wouldn't get to play NSMBWii with a d-pad!

[ThePerm]

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=31783.0

this has reminded me that in the next console they should have a much better charging situation. I have had all sorts of problems with charging.
First rechargeable batteries get pretty good lasting times, but if your living with evil roommates, than they have the possibility of disappearing.
The only thing i could do is get pissed, because nobody would admit to it. This happened to me, so i bought a charger stand deal, and it was fucking broken out of the box and i had to take it back. I wish i could just charge the next systems controller via usb cable or something.

[Adrock]

Another stick in the place of the d-pad would be almost unusable given the design of the wiimote.  And I wouldn't get to play NSMBWii with a d-pad!

Classic Controller. Or the Nunchuck could be redesigned to include a D-pad. It may not be as pretty, but form follows function.

[Chozo Ghost]

The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment. In times past you needed to either have a button dedicated to changing your items, or you had to hit start and go to the menu and then change the item from there. The <-- and --> as well as up and down allows you to more easily cycle through the stuff.

In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore.

[Adrock]

I'm still partial to using the D-pad for 2D games so putting one on the Wii remote which is primarily held in my right hand fails to serve a purpose. Yeah, turning the Wii remote sideways fixes that "problem" but so does putting a D-pad on the Nunchuck. Sony's Navigation Controller is a prime example of form before function. I can't imagine the D-pad on that thing being comfortable to use at all concurrently with the analog stick. It seems like you have to choose one or the other. Still, if any company can come up with a competent and comfortable design, it's Nintendo.

[ThePerm]

yeah, i did a mockup of that years ago when the wii was first announced

http://www.tetrametrics.com/theperm/Images/imp.jpg

wow, that connector for the controller looks huge...Revolution pre-wii days

this was another odd idea i had

http://www.tetrametrics.com/theperm/Images/topbottom.jpg

also read
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=505;area=showposts;start=50
that guys posts are like a goldmine

[Mop it up]

The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment.
In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore.

I guess you don't play Tetris or other puzzle games. Or fighters.

[TJ Spyke]

The analog stick is great for the majority of fighting games. The only games I agree work better with a d-pad are puzzle games.

[ThePerm]

I prefer fighting games that use the analog stick.

Soul Calibur and Smash Bros are my favorite modern fighting series at this time. Soul Calibur feels so good and intuitive.

[Adrock]

2D fighting games (Smash Bros. doesn't count) work better with a D-pad.

[Chozo Ghost]

The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment.
In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore.

I guess you don't play Tetris or other puzzle games. Or fighters.

Did you notice how I said Modern Games? Tetris is from about 1986, IIRC.

[Mop it up]

Groovin' Blocks would be a nightmare with an analogue stick.

[Chozo Ghost]

True, but you could use the motion controller to turn the blocks around.

[Ian Sane]

I keep coming back to a single thought: Metroid Prime - a GC game that uses every button on the controller - was ported to Wii with improved controls.  Obviously one example does not cover the whole spectrum of games, but clearly the Wiimote is capable of controlling 95% of games that came before it.

But the DS can handle 100% of portable games that came before it and the 3DS can also handle 100%.  Why settle for 95%?  And I think 95% is too high of an estimate.  Even then you're mapping apples to oranges and shoehorning stuff to get it to work.  The DS model of adding to what it is already there is just so vastly superior.  With that model of controller design there is no shoehorning, there is no substitutions and there is no incompatibility.  If you asked me to choose between anything where it was 100% and 95% I would never EVER pick the 95% if I didn't have to.  It's all excuses.  No one wants to hear excuses if they don't have to.
 

 
 The only real purpose the D-pad serves in modern games is a means to conveniently cycle through your items and equipment. In times past you needed to either have a button dedicated to changing your items, or you had to hit start and go to the menu and then change the item from there. The <-- and --> as well as up and down allows you to more easily cycle through the stuff.

In my experience that's pretty much all the D-pad is good for anymore. 

That's poor controller design.  Don't make assumptions about what the developer wants to do.  The d-pad has been there for 25 years and devs are used to it being there.  Even if most modern games don't use it, it can be used for other things.  You never know if tomorrow someone comes up with this great new concept and it needs the d-pad and will work like complete crap with an analog stick (and the funny thing is Nintendo loves the d-pad these days).  Digital input is more precise than analog input.  The range of input analog can provide can be very useful but sometimes you just want on/off.  If you're thinking "well you shouldn't need this" or "this will make up for that" that's not flexible design.  You're telling devs what they want.  Give them what they want plus more.
 
If you're making a videogame system you want every genre to play well on it and every developer to want to make games for it.  There is no benefit in just turning developers away or making entire genres virtually non-existant on your console (something that EVERY Nintendo console since the N64 has had a problem with).  You can say that a d-pad is only good for fighters.  Well why throw away that entire genre when you don't have to?
 
I don't see any argument being made that adding to what is already there is a bad thing.  I don't see any argument that the DS approach is flawed or inferior, merely that the Wii approach isn't that bad.  Is the DS approach not BETTER?  Would we not want Nintendo to go with whatever approach is BEST on their next console?

[ThePerm]

there is a classic controller if people want to play those games, sure they have to go out and buy it, but if they really like those games than they should. They should still make those games for Wii Controls with the option for classic. There is no difference shoving extra buttons on a controller to try to appease a market, than to include a second controller option in the long run.

There is a reason there is no d-pad on the nunchuck and that is because you need resistance to press buttons and if the nunchuck is not attached to something you don't have this resistance. The easiest improvement would just be to include 4 number buttons on the next iteration instead of just 1 and 2
then you could have better sideways play. You know the company when releasing each generation of stuff purposely holds back some stuff just so it would seem there is an improvement the next generation. There would be no demand sometimes if they didn't create it.