Topic: Nintendo's got 700 Problems, but.......

[ThePerm]

i remember when that talk was going around, and i did the math right away and I LOLed, Reggie Iwata and Miyamoto all sit in an office as the money printing machine is rolled in.

[BlackNMild2k1]

#374) Money Printer is out of ink
#375) It's also out of paper

[Dasmos]

What 64 games did they make that were so special?

I just looked and saw they only did two N64 games. One was pretty good though, Pokémon Puzzle League. They also made the GameCube launch game Wave Race: Blue Storm, which was pretty good. Actually, most of their games have been pretty good.

Yeah, I thought they made the original Wave Race and 1080, but I guess they didn't. But they did a good job in making both their sequels better than the originals.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I thought now would be a good time to bump this thread with all these Reggie & Iwata interviews about fixing Nintendo's 700 problems.

Revamping the entire online system
Asking 3rd parties for input on what they want in the 3DS
Accounts over Friends codes and System ties
Much improved graphics provided by shaders none the least
feedback from E3 on possible design tweaks.... (3D video chat)
and the list goes on and on and on.

[Chozo Ghost]

I'm glad that Nintendo is asking third parties for input on the 3DS, but that was something they had already done before with the original DS, so it isn't like they were addressing a problem that already existed. In fact, I read somewhere the DS name actually stands for Developer System because Nintendo designed it completely with developers in mind. Now, if only they would ask 3rd parties for input on the Wii and its successor... that's where the problem lies.

[BlackNMild2k1]

3DS is a start of Nintendo on a new path.

They've led Sony & MS astray into the Blue Ocean looking for Curly's treasure. Now Nintendo needs to double back to Core Cove and dig up the treasure they left behind.
DS may have stood for Developers System, but Nintendo didn't actually ask Developers what they wanted, they just did what they thought was best for them without their input.

[Stratos]

I recall their reasoning for referring to the DS as the developer's system was because they loaded it with 'special features' like the mic and touch screen and wi-fi that were like different tools for an artist to make a great work however they wanted.

[Louieturkey]

Meh, they steered M$ far into the blue ocean and their boat sunk before they could cast their first net.  Sony was a bit smarter and it only out about 20 feet from the shore.  I think Sony didn't jump as far into the ocean and so their rope is tethered to the core shore.  Don't expect Nintendo to be able to get all of the treasure.

[Ian Sane]

The DS is a very different approach than the Wii was which is probably why the DS has very strong third party support and the Wii does not.

If you were to make a conventional update to the GBA you would up the specs, make it capable of polygons instead of focusing so much on sprites, add online support, and refine the controls.  It would like going from the SNES to the N64.  Well if you take away the touchscreen and the mic and that's what you've got.  The DS is a very conventional update to the GBA only it also has all these extra nifty doodads.

The Wii is only a minor hardware update to the Gamecube.  It doesn't add or refine the controls but attempts to completely replace them.  It's online capabilities are the only conventional upgrade.  It's as if the DS replaced the d-pad and buttons with the touchscreen and mic and was barely more powerful than the GBA.  Which model is more developer friendly?  The DS provides options and that's what a true developer's system would do.

The 3DS is also a conventional update to the DS.  The same controls are there and the hardware boost is significant as it looks like at the very least we're going from N64 to Gamecube.  Even if someone has no interest in using the 3D effect there is a clear incentive to make a game for it.  It's a coventional update with some nifty new stuff thrown.  So you can make the same sort of stuff you've made for portable games before or you can do something different.  It has flexibility.  It has options.  It's a developer's system.

[Guitar Smasher]

The Wii is only a minor hardware update to the Gamecube.  It doesn't add or refine the controls but attempts to completely replace them.  It's online capabilities are the only conventional upgrade.  It's as if the DS replaced the d-pad and buttons with the touchscreen and mic and was barely more powerful than the GBA.

Except that the standard Wii controller still has a d-pad, analog stick, and buttons.

[Plugabugz]

The Wii is only a minor hardware update to the Gamecube.  It doesn't add or refine the controls but attempts to completely replace them.  It's online capabilities are the only conventional upgrade.  It's as if the DS replaced the d-pad and buttons with the touchscreen and mic and was barely more powerful than the GBA.

Except that the standard Wii controller still has a d-pad, analog stick, and buttons.

But inside the context (or crutch, depending who you ask) of the Wii Remote.

[Chozo Ghost]

From what I've read on wikipedia about the 3DS, it has been said to be "far more powerful than the Wii". If that's the case, then porting Wii games to it shouldn't a problem, nor should it be a problem to port PS2 etc. games to it as well. So we might see a lot of that being done by third parties, which won't necessarily be a bad thing provided new features and/or content is added instead of it just being a direct 1:1 port. But I'm curious as to how much "far more powerful than the Wii" it is. If its on par with the 360/PS3 then its going to be a beast of a system in handheld form, which may signal the end of console gaming.

[Adrock]

I highly doubt 3DS is anywhere near on par with PS3/360. Th shaders and small screen may blur bridge the gap, but in terms of horsepower, no way. I highly doubt Nintendo has 512MB of RAM in there. I'd like to see at least 128MB though.

I recall their reasoning for referring to the DS as the developer's system was because they loaded it with 'special features' like the mic and touch screen and wi-fi that were like different tools for an artist to make a great work however they wanted.

I think the difference here is that they didn't ask 3rd parties what they'd like to see in the DS. Nintendo chose the tools. I imagine the slide pad was created based on 3rd party feedback. Nintendo developed it in-house at the behest of 3rd parties. I'm not stating a fact, mind you. I just think that's probably how it went down.

That said, the next couple months may bring even more changes. We know the design isn't final and Nintendo actively sought feedback from 3rd parties. If 3rd parties can justify changes/additions in a way that improves game design, I think, now more than ever, Nintendo is more likely to entertain the thought.

[Ian Sane]

Except that the standard Wii controller still has a d-pad, analog stick, and buttons.

Yeah but it's like if instead of the DS having 4 face buttons it had only 1 with the assumption being that the touchscreen would make up for the lost button.  The DS controls just built onto the GBA's.  Nothing was removed, only added.  You can't just play a Gamecube game on the Wii controller.  The idea is that the remote's unique features are supposed to replace the functionality that came before it.
 
The Wii forces you to try something different while the DS gives you the OPTION to to try something different.  The proof is in the pudding.  Both systems are the clear market leaders yet the DS has very good third party support and the Wii has arguably worse third party support than even the Gamecube.  The Wii is the ONLY market leading console to have the worst third party support of it's generation.  That suggests to me that Nintendo did something wrong that they did correctly with the DS and this seems like the likely scenario.

[ThePerm]

i hope Wii's successor has more buttons. The idea of a button for doing something may be dated, but the idea of a button switching between what your doing is not.

[Guitar Smasher]

Yeah but it's like if instead of the DS having 4 face buttons it had   only 1 with the assumption being that the touchscreen would make up for   the lost button.  The DS controls just built onto the GBA's.  Nothing   was removed, only added.  You can't just play a Gamecube game on the Wii   controller.  The idea is that the remote's unique features are supposed   to replace the functionality that came before it.

Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC.  In that respect wiimote is only slightly less functional, and this missing functionality is made up by the pointer/accelerometer/gyroscope inputs.  Sure, you could add another button but that isn't going to solve the 3rd party situation.  And you can play GC games with a Wii controller.  Prime Trilogy demonstrates this, as does Mario Galaxy.  I'm actually curious now, can you name a GC game that wouldn't be possible on Wii, even with small adaptations (other than fighters; I've heard you use this one a million times)?

The Wii forces you to try something different while the DS gives you the OPTION to to try something different.  The proof is in the pudding.  Both systems are the clear market leaders yet the DS has very good third party support and the Wii has arguably worse third party support than even the Gamecube.  The Wii is the ONLY market leading console to have the worst third party support of it's generation.  That suggests to me that Nintendo did something wrong that they did correctly with the DS and this seems like the likely scenario.

I would not blame the 3rd party situation on the controller.  It might have been a factor in select instances, but almost all games are playable using the Wii setup, as evidenced by the wide representation of various genres.  In fact, I remember hearing a whole lot of developers get excited when the controller was originally revealed.

The main culprit behind the poor support was the perception that "only casual gamers play Wii, and they only buy crappy party games".  And it's still a misconception, explaining why Reggie has to interrupt his 'presentation of a lifetime' to remind us that Wii is still outselling the other consoles combined, and that Wii gets played more by its owners. 

[SixthAngel]

The Wii forces you to try something different while the DS gives you the OPTION to to try something different.  The proof is in the pudding.  Both systems are the clear market leaders yet the DS has very good third party support and the Wii has arguably worse third party support than even the Gamecube.

There is no proof of cause, the situations are incredibly different.  Just because a friend called me when I drank a beer doesn't mean he called me because I drank a beer.  The Wii/DS situations were different from the start, including competition and the systems that they followed.

The Wii is the ONLY market leading console to have the worst third party support of it's generation.  That suggests to me that Nintendo did something wrong that they did correctly with the DS and this seems like the likely scenario.

This suggests to me that 3rd parties have been doing something wrong.  Nintendo created the most successful home console ever, I don't see how we can blame them when other companies are too inept to cash in on it.

[ThePerm]

i blame third parties, bunch of namby pambies

[Ian Sane]

The third party support isn't just the controller.  I think that's a smaller part anyway.  It's more the fact that the hardware is so much weaker than the other consoles.  The Wii wasn't a conventional update while the DS was.
 

There is no proof of cause, the situations are incredibly different.  Just because a friend called me when I drank a beer doesn't mean he called me because I drank a beer.

I think that's a pretty weak analogy.  I see this more like if I had different training regiments for two different races and in one race I did really well and in the other I didn't.  That suggests that my training regiment might be the source of the problem.  The Wii's third party support SUCKS.  Don't you think it might be a little bit more productive for Nintendo to look at what they did and try to make a connection than to just assume that third parties suck and hate Nintendo (but only on consoles for some reason)?  How is this going to improve next gen if Nintendo just completely denies all fault and does nothing?
 

 Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC.  In that respect wiimote is only slightly less functional, and this missing functionality is made up by the pointer/accelerometer/gyroscope inputs.

When you're making a game what would you rather hear?
1. It's the same as before but we also have added this.
2. It's missing this and this but we added that which should make up for the lack of this.
 
As a computer programmer, I don't make games, but I would vastly prefer option 1.  Option 2 is telling me how to do my job and makes big assumptions about how I want to use the hardware.

[Guitar Smasher]

The third party support isn't just the controller.  I think that's a smaller part anyway.  It's more the fact that the hardware is so much weaker than the other consoles.  The Wii wasn't a conventional update while the DS was.

Seems to me that the DS is 'so much weaker' than PSP.  But certain devs have complained about Wii's power, so I guess you can't really compare handhelds and consoles.
 

 Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC.  In that respect wiimote is only slightly less functional, and this missing functionality is made up by the pointer/accelerometer/gyroscope inputs.

When you're making a game what would you rather hear?
1. It's the same as before but we also have added this.
2. It's missing this and this but we added that which should make up for the lack of this.
 
As a computer programmer, I don't make games, but I would vastly prefer option 1.  Option 2 is telling me how to do my job and makes big assumptions about how I want to use the hardware.

Again, I remember a whole lot of excitement from devs when the wiimote was unveiled.  Come to think of it, I can't remember a single instance where one complained that it was missing a c-stick or a GC button.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[MegaByte]

Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC. 

Yeah, no.  Most of the buttons aren't readily accessible simultaneously.

[Guitar Smasher]

Actually, C-stick aside, the Wii controller is only one button less than GC. 

Yeah, no.  Most of the buttons aren't readily accessible simultaneously.

Yeah, they are.

Wii: A, +, -, B, Z, C  = 6 easily accessible buttons.

GC: A, B, X, Y, L, R, Z = 7 easily accessible buttons.

Notice how I didn't mention the d-pad which is more accessible on wiimote?

[Dirk Temporo]

If you honestly think that the D-Pad is more accessible on the Wii Remote, or that the + and - buttons even COUNT as "easily accessible," then you my friend have freaky monkey hands.

I'm sorry, buttons that are literally UNDER YOUR PALM when playing a game are not "accessible" at all, never mind easily.

[Stratos]

Those buttons are only easily accessible for me when you hold it 'classic style'. When you hold it 'wand' style it becomes tricky to precisely press buttons.

[Adrock]

If you honestly think that the D-Pad is more accessible on the Wii Remote, or that the + and - buttons even COUNT as "easily accessible," then you my friend have freaky monkey hands.

I'm sorry, buttons that are literally UNDER YOUR PALM when playing a game are not "accessible" at all, never mind easily.

Yeah, I agree. I can hit the + and - buttons okay, but I have to adjust my grip on the controller to reach the D-pad. And forget about 1 and 2 when using the Wii remote with the nunchuck.