Topic: Nintendo 3DS Discussion

[Spak-Spang]

I actually rather like the idea of a Gamecube level portable.  Obviously I don't just want Gamecube ports, but I feel that level of graphics isn't too much to ask in the current market and having good battery life. 

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Capcom will port RE4 YET AGAIN.

[UncleBob]

You know, I'd rather like to see the idea of dual cartridge slots in the 3DS as Nintendo discussed for the DSi.  I'd love to keep NSMB in along with whatever current game I'm playing.

And for those commenting on Battery life, you must not use the wireless abilities of your DS/DSi that much.  Wireless gameplay drains the battery dry and makes me a sad panda.

[Adrock]

I just want to make it clear to everyone that I'm merely bringing up a hypothetical situation here and I fully expect there to be 2 screens and BC.

From what we know of Nintendo Handheld history (it will be ARM based), we could reasonably say that removing DS BC from 3DS would be like removing GC BC from Wii.

So many different chipsets are ARM based so I don't think that necessarily suggests easy compatibility. Considering we don't know what 3DS is packing, a comparison to Gamecube and Wii isn't fair. Broadway was built off of Gekko. If we are to assume 3DS uses Tegra 2, the analogy falls apart. Nvidia didn't create the Tegra family off of DS blueprints. There's bound to be some compatibility issues and if it came down to it, Nintendo should choose the future in 3DS over maintaining compatibility with old hardware.

Don't forget that they've already patented forward/backward compatible cards and confirmed that it will be BC.
They've also "codenamed" the system 3DS which would lead me to believe that it has the same form factor as the DS since they are both in the same family of handhelds.

For argument's sake, think of how many patents are unused. Additionally, until the hardware is finalized, Nintendo could strip the 3DS of anything. On a much smaller scale, look at the Gamecube controller.

I'm not trying to start a big debate over this. I just wanted to see people's thoughts on this what-if scenario. I don't think people would really miss backwards compatibility. People would balk and move on. Additionally, the 2 screens aren't really what made DS. The touch screen was far more important and I feel like most DS games could have been reworked to use one larger screen.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

What if

The announcement outright lied

[Stratos]

What if

The announcement outright lied

Wouldn't be the first time.

[MaryJane]

So many different chipsets are ARM based so I don't think that necessarily suggests easy compatibility. Considering we don't know what 3DS is packing, a comparison to Gamecube and Wii isn't fair. Broadway was built off of Gekko. If we are to assume 3DS uses Tegra 2, the analogy falls apart. Nvidia didn't create the Tegra family off of DS blueprints. There's bound to be some compatibility issues and if it came down to it, Nintendo should choose the future in 3DS over maintaining compatibility with old hardware.

Just fyi the Tegra also uses ARM CPU's, and correct me if I'm wrong but bc wouldn't come from the hardware necessarily. The hardware just needs to be able to render the game code into images, sound, and input responses. The Wii doesn't have a GC inside of it, its CPU just uses the same instruction set as the GC (PowerPC) and the X360 doesn't have the original Xbox in it either, they do bc through software emulation. makes you wonder why Sony put a PS2 in the PS3 and now that they have taken it out the PS3 is no longer bc I'm just speculating here of course, but if the 3DS is even nearly as powerful as a GC it should have no trouble emulating DS/DSi games through software or by carrying whatever instruction set the DS CPU's use.

As for the screen(s) one really big screen could replace the two screens, but this would suggest a swivel since the screen will be widescreen.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Actually the Wii does have a GC in it.
The Wii is a souped up GC chip that is downclocked for GC mode.

If Nintendo were to go with Tegra/2 I'm sure they would still pair it up with an ARM 7(that's in the DS?) or ARM 9 chip (Tegra 1 is ARM 9 based and Tegra 2 is ARM 11... I think) for BC. Both chips would probably downclock themselves when in DS mode.

As far as 3DS is concerned though, dropping BC would be stupid. You want the large DS audience to transfer over to the 3DS and being able to play their DS/i games and the new 3DS games is a HUGE motivator for that(especially in the 1st year or 2).
Don't forget about Pokemon B&W with 3DS enhancements (yes it's happening and you can't convince me otherwise)


Imagine if your Bluray player made you ditch DVD's and start all over, but you can't hook them both up because you don't have that many inputs? Would you still pay all that money to rebuy your entire library again so you can see it in HD? especially since most movies you probably already owned are not and probably never will be on BRD?

[Adrock]

Compelling software and even the early adopter syndrome sells hardware. Backwards compatibility is not a huge motivator; it's an extra. How many people were motivated to buy the Wii because it could play Gamecube games? That's ridiculous. Thank Wii Sports and Twilight Princess. No one is kicking down Sony's door to reinstate 2 whole generation's worth of backwards compatibility in PS3 and games are still released on PS2. So, I don't think you can make that claim. People buy new hardware primarily on the merits of the system itself, not its ability to play legacy games. It's a nice feature, sure, but it's hardly a deal breaker. Since I already own a DSi, I'd take a cheaper, smaller 3DS if Nintendo ditched backwards compatibility. In every backwards compatibility enabled console's life, there comes a point when people stop caring about it. By the time Microsoft cut Halo 2 from Xbox Live, like 7 people were still playing it.

Additionally, I kind of feel like backwards compatibility encourages laziness. New hardware is rushed out the door with minimal games because the idea is that people can play their old games. Sony PR'd the f*ck out of that in 2000 and it's still bullsh*t. PS2 had a god awful launch. So did DS. People will still have the old systems. Or they should and thus will still be able to play the old games. They could get $20 in trade-in value, but then you encourage used hardware/software sales and lose money that way. Launch with a brand new Super Mario game then see how much people give a damn about old DS games. Even if backwards compatibility is there, Nintendo should be giving people a legitimate reason to buy 3DS, not a more expensive DS for a while until the real 3DS games come out.

[TJ Spyke]

BC does ot encourage laziness at all, where did you get that theory from? Besides, I can't point to lots of new systems with no BC that had bad launches. Almost every Xbox 360 launch game was crap. BC helps with sales of both the news system and games. A person is more likely to buy a 3DS early if they can trade in their DS and continue playing their DS games on the 3DS. This can only be a GOOD thing because it means more customers for 3DS games and more reasons for publishers to make good games for it. I honestly can't believe any person thinks that removing backwards compatibility would be a good thing. Thankfully Nintendo doesn't agree with you since the 3DS '''will''' be backwards compatible with the DS.

As for Halo 2, even in February of this year there was thousands of people playing Halo 2 online at any given time.

[BlackNMild2k1]

If gamecube was popular you might have convinced me.  And tell me how many PS2 owners could afford a PS3 when it first came out(when it was BC) and how many Wii owners even knew what the hell a gamecube was? This is a whole new audience we're talking about where they don't want to feel like everything they already bought is now obsolete and no longer of any use. You want to ease the majority of that 130+million audience into upgrading their hardware with out making them feel like the last $500 they spend on the old system and games will will goto waste. The piece of mind that knowing you could continue to play all your current games and enjoy new ones as they come. I'm not referring to the hardcore, but the new audience, the audience that will buy the system because it's the "In" thing but probably mostly play their same usual games on it.

But GC is something I tried to do on my Wii when I got it. Being tethered was a hindrance and I haven't tried it since. Doesn't change the fact that there were probably plenty of parents that were at some point just gonna by a GC(used) with a few games for $100 and call it day, but found out that the Wii is also a GC and comes with games(Wii Sports was advertised as 5 games in 1 by many retail clerks) for $200-$250. Therefore BC was a huge motivator in buying a Wii over a GC and BC would probably have killed off the PS2 at this point in it's life if the PS3 could play PS2 games with out flaw.

BC adds value to upgrading without devaluing (or shelving) your current collection of games. Not to mention lets teh hold-outs play catch up on all the games they missed without buying old hardware.

A 3DS for $200(-$230) with over 50-60 DS/i games you been wanting to play, most in a greatest hits or discounted price range now, is sort of a hard offer to pass up.

[NWR_insanolord]

Backward compatibility is more important in a handheld than in a console. I can always hook up both the new console and the old one to my TV, but there's only room in my pocket for one handheld; I can't bring both the old one and the new one with me when I go out.

[MaryJane]

Actually the Wii does have a GC in it.
The Wii is a souped up GC chip that is downclocked for GC mode.

If Nintendo were to go with Tegra/2 I'm sure they would still pair it up with an ARM 7(that's in the DS?) or ARM 9 chip (Tegra 1 is ARM 9 based and Tegra 2 is ARM 11... I think) for BC. Both chips would probably downclock themselves when in DS mode.

...

Just fyi the Tegra also uses ARM CPU's, and correct me if I'm wrong but bc wouldn't come from the hardware necessarily. The hardware just needs to be able to render the game code into images, sound, and input responses. The Wii doesn't have a GC inside of it, its a more powerfulCPUlikely manufactured in the same way and just uses the same instruction set as the GC (PowerPC) to allow it to run GC games

fixed!
Also, the Tegra 2 uses ARM 9:

 

The NVIDIA Tegra architecture is a heterogeneous multi-processor architecture that consists of eight independent processors for graphics, video encode and decode, image processing, audio processing, power management, and general-purpose functions. These processors are power managed independently with local hardware control and system level control built into each processor. A system-level power monitor allows the Tegra processor to turn on only those processors required for a specific use case, while keeping all other processors turned off.

Tegra’s purpose-optimized processors are analogous to a carpenter’s tool kit that has various tools such as hammer, saw, screwdriver, and drill. A carpenter does not use a hammer to drive screws or a drill to cut wood. Each tool is optimized for a specific task or function. Likewise, the Tegra processors are all specialized for particular tasks
- Graphics Processor (GPU): Delivers outstanding mobile 3D game playability and is also used for visually engaging, highly-responsive 3D touch user interfaces.
- Video Decode Processor: runs video macro-block oriented algorithms including inverse discrete cosine transforms (IDCT), variable length decode (VLD), color space conversion (CSC), and bit stream processing to deliver smooth, full frame rate 1080p HD video playback and streaming HD Flash video playback without compromising battery life.
- Video Encode Processor: runs video encode algorithms to deliver full 1080p HD video streams for video recording and conferencing capabilities.
- Image Signal Processor (ISP): handles light balance, edge enhancement, and noise reduction algorithms to deliver real-time photo enhancement capabilities.
- Audio Processor: handles analog signal audio processing to deliver over 140 hours of continuous 128kbps mp3 audio playback on a single battery charge.4
- Dual-Core ARM Cortex A9 CPU: for general-purpose computing delivers faster web browsing and snappier response times on Java enabled websites
- ARM7 Processor: handles system management functions and several proprietary battery life extending features on NVIDIA Tegra.
Each processor adds instructions, caches, clocks, and circuits optimized for each specific task, with performance monitors to track system activity

That is about the Tegra 2 from February 2010. 


Lastly: Nintendo already confirmed bc... its the only OTHER thing we know about 3DS than its 3Dness 

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The Wii is 2 Nintendo GAMECUBEs and duct tape.  Get with the program.

[Adrock]

A person is more likely to buy a 3DS early if they can trade in their DS and continue playing their DS games on the 3DS.

A DS Lite has a $30 trade in value right now at Gamestop. That's only going to decrease, especially since Gamestop knows 3DS is coming...

Thankfully Nintendo doesn't agree with you since the 3DS '''will''' be backwards compatible with the DS.

I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Dude, seriously? /facepalm

As for Halo 2, even in February of this year there was thousands of   people playing Halo 2 online at any given time.

Click me

Also, the Tegra 2 uses ARM 9:

I know. I own a Zune HD. I've read up on the specs. That doesn't automatically make Tegra compatible with DS.... Nintendo would have to commission Nvidia to make it work which, while probably not difficult, still costs money. The idea is to not spend that money.

Lastly: Nintendo already confirmed bc... its the only OTHER thing we know about 3DS than its 3Dness

I just want to make it clear to everyone that I'm merely bringing up a hypothetical situation here and I fully expect there to be 2 screens and BC.

...

I'm not trying to start a big debate over this. I just wanted to see people's thoughts on this what-if scenario.

/facepalm

BC adds value to upgrading without devaluing (or shelving) your current collection of games. Not to mention lets teh hold-outs play catch up on all the games they missed without buying old hardware.

You're paying for something you already have. You're not devaluing or shelving your current collection at all because you already have the hardware needed to play those games. Otherwise, why would you even own those games to begin with? You would just have an extra device to play them on. And the hold-outs held out for a reason. If they weren't going to pay $130 for a DS Lite, what makes you think they're going to pay even more for a 3DS to play DS games? I imagine hold-outs hold out due to price so no matter how amazing 3DS may be, most aren't biting. They're more likely to buy a used DS or a new freshly price cut DS to play DS games while holding out on 3DS.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Actually I think the hold outs are the ones waiting for a deal(not so much because they can't afford it, but because they can't quite justify the purchase yet), and they have waited so long, that once the new hardware gets announced at a price they find affordable, it becomes justifiable as 2 devices for the price of 1.
(I would have considered a PS3 at some point for all it can do now and everything last gen too)


They would love to have the New 3DS that is also a DS that plays New 3DS games and all the other games that came out too.

As for paying for what you already have, tell that to the iPhone crowd that upgrades ever year so they can have all the latest features and still use all the old ones too. I'm not sure if you can take your apps with you, or if they are ties to an account or anything, but the  point is that the new phone lets you play with all the new features and the old ones too, just like a 3DS would let you do for a DS/i.

[NWR_insanolord]

Barely anyone buys a new iPhone every year; that's way too expensive since the unsubsidized price is $500-600 and you'd have to pay that every year after the first since your contract would never get to the point where you'd be eligible to upgrade. Apps are transferable, by the way. They're tied to an Apple account, so they can be installed on any iDevice authorized with that account. I can install the apps I've bought on both my iPhone and my iPad, as well as the new iPhone I plan on buying in the next few months.

[MaryJane]

insanolord: the last line of your post contradicts the first... maybe not everyone buys a new iphone but enough people are willing to upgrade... same is true about 3DS with or without bc - seriously would you not buy it without bc or would you just be annoyed it didn't have it? Not a deal breaker just a nice add-on, especially at launch as already mentioned

adrock: i was talking to BnM... that's why i quoted him... and also it turns out that the Tegra 2 in the Zune uses ARM 11 so I was mistaken and Nvidia needs to update their website lol

[BlackNMild2k1]

Barely anyone buys a new iPhone every year; that's way too expensive since the unsubsidized price is $500-600 and you'd have to pay that every year after the first since your contract would never get to the point where you'd be eligible to upgrade. Apps are transferable, by the way. They're tied to an Apple account, so they can be installed on any iDevice authorized with that account. I can install the apps I've bought on both my iPhone and my iPad, as well as the new iPhone I plan on buying in the next few months.

Ok. lets pretend I said every other year instead. Tell that to the iPhone users who upgrade to the newest one every other year. Part of the incentive to do so (vs switching to a completely different phone like so many of us used to do before) is that you get to use all the new features and carry over all your old stuff too.

[Adrock]

Actually I think the hold outs are the ones waiting for a deal(not so much because they can't afford it, but because they can't quite justify the purchase yet), and they have waited so long, that once the new hardware gets announced at a price they find affordable, it becomes justifiable as 2 devices for the price of 1.

It's been out for over 5 years. If people haven't justified the purchase by now and it's "not so much because they can't afford it," what are they waiting for? I can only assume it's the price since Nintendo hasn't dropped it in like 4 years.

adrock: i was talking to BnM... that's why i quoted him... and also it turns out that the Tegra 2 in the Zune uses ARM 11 so I was mistaken and Nvidia needs to update their website lol

Fair enough. He was originally responding to me so I guess I thought you were referring to me by extension. Also, I believe the Zune HD uses a first generation Tegra chip. I don't think anything officially uses Tegra 2 yet.

[MaryJane]

Hmm perhaps we're both right... Don't quote me on this, but from a brief perusal of Nvidia's website it seems that they're going back to using ARM9's going forward with the Tegra's for now (perhaps for costs) but some of the older chips have ARM11's in them or so it seems.  

[MegaByte]

It's Cortex-A9 (7th gen ARM), which is very different from ARM9 (4th gen ARM) and newer than ARM11 (6th gen ARM) .

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The ARM has gone thru so many changes it's now the LEG.

[MaryJane]

lol ningurl and thanks for the explanation MB

Also just a thought: we've seen Sony change their hardware before in response to trends... it wouldn't be out of the question for Sony to say we're also going to give the PSP a 3D screen. you know their going to be asked about it, it would almost be foolish for them not to give it a 3D screen... the technology is there it's in no way exclusive to Nintendo and it would give them a one up on the iPad for now, and we will have to wait and see if the next iPhone is in 3D--as of now the screens max out at 3.5" i believe so the iPad is SOL--Apple has the same reasons as Sony to give their next handheld a 3D screen more in fact, because it's also competing in the smart phone market which is getting close to being the only phone market nowadays--which is why I believe the 3DS should have serious VoIP abilities especially video conferencing--actually maybe a good use of friend codes; only people on your contact list would be able to video-conference

Nintendo may once again be leading an innovation into the mass-market--the accelerometers in the iPhone are a big part of its appeal and we know who was first with that--but this time their competitors don't have to play catch-up.

i also think Apply made the exact same mistake with the iPad rather than play catch-up their competitors are going out of their way to surpass them, yes their will be a new iPad sooner than later, but at best it will on par with everything else there'll be a lot of work for the apple press machine, but don't expect HP Dell Verizon-Google Sony MS to sit quiet but im rambling and this is WAY off-topic lol

[Kytim89]

Whether Nintenod likes it or not, they have declared war on Apple and its other competers. Nintendo is going to have to get their hands dirty in the multimedia mud and defend its position as the king of handhelds from Sony, but more importantly Apple. Apple will most likely respond from Nintendo's past statement about seeing them as the enemy by actually treating Nintendo as a villian.