Topic: Sony's Motion in the Blue Ocean

[Mop it up]

Nintendo Power has been separating gamers into genre fans since 1989.

[BeautifulShy]

Well I guess it has to do with the additude of people than the names casual and hardcore.
Remember "kiddy" back in the N64 era. Same type of thing as far as casual. Something to divide games into different groups.

[broodwars]

Well I guess it has to do with the additude of people than the names casual and hardcore.
Remember "kiddy" back in the N64 era. Same type of thing as far as casual. Something to divide games into different groups.

Alright, now that's a fair assessment of the era.  We all remember the "kiddie" stigma, though I wouldn't blame the new gamers themselves for that stereotype when there were other factors in play at the time (see Mop's comment about Nintendo repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot).

[Ian Sane]

  What has Sony ever done for the video game industry? 

Sony is a pretty derivative company but you can't have had two of the most successful consoles of all time and not have had some influence on the industry as a whole.
 
Sony made videogames cool for teenagers and young adults.  Before the Playstation, console videogames were largely played by children.  Those who weren't children were largely considered geeks.  You didn't play videogames if you here in high school.  If you did you were considered a huge dork.  But the Playstation attracted a wider audience by offering more "mature" games.  Games were cool, provided you played the right ones.  Those that thought videogames were childish were now buying games like Tekken, Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy VII.
 
The Wii and DS are largely credited for expanding the market, mostly to include middle-aged people and females.  The Playstation did a similar expanding of the market but with young males.
 
It appears that the way to expand the videogame market is to "trick" those outside the market into entering it.  Sony did it with FMV, more mature content and some outright exploitation like blood and boobs.  Nintendo did it with simplifying gameplay.  I'd argue that since Sony's trick was superficial and presentation-based it was less offensive in the eyes of the existing market.  Nintendo's approach has been controversially entirely because they touched the gameplay which was the one big no-no.  Everyone is welcomed provided that the gameplay is not compromised to accomodate them.
 
Microsoft's major comtribution to console gaming is that the Xbox more-or-less merged PC and console gaming together.  These days PC exclusives are rare and console versions of PC games are considered to be on par quality-wise.  In the past PC-to-console ports were always inferior.  Now it's pretty much just the personal preference of the player.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Sony made videogames cool outside the usual circles of traditional and stereotypical gamers. Sony roped in the jocks and the bullies and the cheerleaders too. Some older gamers, where Nintendo systems and games where looked at as toys, were now free to play madden and metal gear solid on a machine that was viewed as "more mature".

Sony brought the videogames out of the bedrooms and permanently set them up in the livingroom (connected to the bigscreen TV and the stereo system).

[ShyGuy]

Sony brought us the frat boy gamers? I agree to a certain point, but I think the aging demographic and 3D were factors as well.

[Ian Sane]

  Sony brought us the frat boy gamers? I agree to a certain point, but I think the aging demographic and 3D were factors as well. 

It is somewhat hard to prove one way or another.  Sony might have just happened to have the most successful console at a time where gamers from the previous two generations had now grown up.
 
But Nintendo, the then former market leader, was not releasing games for this demographic.  While the Playstation was embracing mature content, Nintendo introduced Mario's voice.   I think it's clear Nintendo just wanted to continue to target kids and families because aside from two FPS shooters from Rare (that NCL was probably unaware of the existence of anyway) Nintendo stuck to family-friendly titles.  Meanwhile Sega originally was going to make the Saturn 2D and only added 3D capabilities at the last minute.  Sony was the only one that embraced both 3D and mature games.  So who knows where the fratboy gamers would have gone if the Playstation didn't exist?  I suspect it's a market that would have just given up gaming.

[ShyGuy]

PSOne was right in the heyday of the Image Comics BloodDeath DeathBlood levels of maturity, so I can see where "teh matchoor" really scratched that insecure macho itch. Oh the 90s...

[BlackNMild2k1]

They did bring us those gamers.... well we always kinda had them, but it was more open now. Frat boy gamers are the older demo, the college kids that were quietly playing Nintendo/Sega games before hand, but now had Madden set up in the dorms on the PS.
Sony brought gaming out of the closet and made it cool and popular.

that was 15 years ago, the aging demo of then is pushing 40 years old now

as far as 3D, weren't almost all if not every PS game in 2D(or at the very best some half assed <fixed perspective?> 3D) before Mario64 was released and showed everyone how 3D was done on the consoles?

[ShyGuy]

Good point BnM2k1

[Mop it up]

two FPS shooters from Rare (that NCL was probably unaware of the existence of anyway)

Considering Goldeneye was released in Japan before the US, I highly doubt they didn't know about it.

So who knows where the fratboy gamers would have gone if the Playstation didn't exist?  I suspect it's a market that would have just given up gaming.

I suspect the third-parties who provided "mature" games for the PlayStation would have developed for the Nintendo 64, thereby making it the console of choice for "frat boy gamers."

[Guitar Smasher]

It appears that the way to expand the videogame market is to "trick" those outside the market into entering it.

The word is "appeal".

No need to be condescending to those who were previously uninterested in video games.

[ShyGuy]

It appears that the way to expand the videogame market is to "trick" those outside the market into entering it.

The word is "appeal".

No need to be condescending to those who were previously uninterested in video games.

Hearing reason from someone named guitar smasher confuses me.

[broodwars]

It appears that the way to expand the videogame market is to "trick" those outside the market into entering it.

The word is "appeal".

No need to be condescending to those who were previously uninterested in video games.

I think what Ian meant by that is that people tend to form preconceptions about things outside their interests, which deter them from every really diving into them and seeing if it could appeal to them.  What happened in the PS1 (and to some extent the PS2 era) was that Sony was able to bring in people who weren't interested in gaming by focusing on aspects of gaming that weren't especially gaming-centric.  For instance, we have the famous example of Square hyping Final Fantasy 7 as an interactive movie with a heavy focus on the FMVs in the commercials.  People who were interested in movies but never really gave games a second thought took interest, and in the end found they liked gaming after all and stuck with it.

[KDR_11k]

Funny, but I don't remember ever seeing either the terms "casual" or "hardcore" used in reference to gamer subcultures until the Wii released.

Madden.

[Chozo Ghost]

Expanded the industry beyond the hardest of the core gamer and strongly encouraged the growth of new IPs in the Playstation/Playstation 2 (and even now with the PS3) era.  But we've done this little dance before.

But what has Sony done for video games that was positive and beneficial? We can't say Hitler never did anything for the world either, but that doesn't mean it was good.

I mean, thanks to Sony shoddy consoles that break down constantly are now the norm. It started with the PS2, and now it is a common event with the PS3 and 360. It never used to be like that. Did Sega Genesis or Super Nintendo/NES systems break down regularly? No. Does the Wii regularly fail to read discs? Did the GC or N64?

Sony has been influential to video games by forcing first 3D gaming and now HD down our throats. They've jacked up the price of gaming in general, and now games are shorter and often ****tier in quality than they used to be.

One can say what they will about the pre-Playstation era, but it was probably the golden age of video games. Back then it was more about the gameplay, and not about FMV HD bull**** like it is today. I miss those days.

Did you ever stop and wonder why VC gaming is as popular as it is? People actually loved those games and still choose to play them even though more graphically impressive FMV content is shoveled out daily. Those games stand the test of time, but the **** Sony gave us is quickly forgotten. Its like the Pre-Playstation era stuff was built on foundations of granite, but the Sony **** was built out of reeds or something. Here today, forgotten tomorrow.

[ThePerm]

i wouldn't say Sony so much introduced system shoddiness as much as its an inevitable feature of a disc drive system. I await a future of a return to cartridge like tech.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Holographic Media might make it's debut in the 3DS.... probably not initially, but the patent for the carts have been made.

Maybe there's a chance for Wii2HD to use the tech in some fashion, but I'm not getting my hopes up at this point. ::It's way too early to start that HYPE TRAIN.....::

[Chozo Ghost]

i wouldn't say Sony so much introduced system shoddiness as much as its an inevitable feature of a disc drive system. I await a future of a return to cartridge like tech.

But Nintendo has been using optical drives these last two generations with fair less hardware failures. I know it happens, just as it will happen with anything, but with the Nintendo systems it seems to be happening far less than the RROD 360 or the disc drive failure PS3. Now, why is that?

[Ian Sane]

The word is "appeal".

No need to be condescending to those who were previously uninterested in video games.

No "trick" is the right word.  Usually gaming isn't rejected on its own merits but rather by bias.  Young males assumed games were for kids without trying them.  Non-gamers assumed games were too complicated without trying them.  They weren't willing to put any effort into looking about what videogames had to offer.  So you have to trick them into trying videogames.  You have to make them think that THESE games are different and that it's okay for them to be playing them.
 
While trying to think of something positive Sony contributed, they were better to third parties that Nintendo was.  Sega did some of this too but the Playstation era was largely the end of videogame censorship.  We also got better translations.  Final Fantasy VII was not renamed "Final Fantasy IV" when it logically should have.  Later Final Fantasy II and V were released here for the first time and what II & III were re-released as IV & VI.  I think before there was a somewhat dumbing down in localizations.  Like, we, the dumb little kids who play videogames, would be all confused about our games being from another country.  Now it's all open.  They'll localize a Japanese game that is entirely for a niche audience here when they wouldn't have in the past.  They don't try to Americanize these games too much anymore.  They'll keep foreign names and anime artwork and will keep alcohol references and such.

[broodwars]

*stuff*

*laughs at the age-old favorite line "But back then it was all about the gameplay, man!  We never cared about production values till the Playstation came along.*
 
Ah, so nice to see nostalgia alive and well, along with the blind fanboyism and delusion that comes with it.  Sorry, but I've owned every Nintendo console except the Virtual Boy, and game design has advanced so far from those early days it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.  We have more choices and more variety in gaming coming from more sources than probably in the history of the industry, catering to a wide range of tastes and interests.
 
People like to delude themselves with gaming (as with everything else from their childhood) that it was always "better back then" and "more pure", but that doesn't make it so.  I certainly remember graphics playing a large role in the SNES vs. Genesis fanboy wars, so I don't know what universe you think it didn't.  And you know what the VC is for me?  It's a library of games I buy but ironically never get around to playing.  I highly doubt I'm the only one with a massive VC backlog, either.  The service is "popular" (and if the data we've seen hinted at about the sales on the service is any indication, I'm not sure we can even call it that) because people like the idea of playing old games as comfort food that reminds them of "better days".  I'm curious how many people actually play them and still enjoy them the same amount or more now.
 
As for your comments about Sony "introducing" "shoddy consoles", first off let's be clear on one thing: if it started anywhere, it started with the PS1 (which was notoriously unreliable) not the PS2.     I work as a tester, and I can tell you that Hardware failure is a consequence of new technology: the more complicated the system, the more things that can go wrong with it.  Nintendo has avoided this through extremely conservative hardware specs and less complicated systems.  They prefer instead to release inferior versions of their hardware right out of the gate so they can re-release them with minor tweaks for several years. Whatever.  I barely play my Wii, and the thing still broke on me in its first year of use (disc drive failure), so it's not like Nintendo's completely immune to this.
 
As for your comments about Sony "forcing" various standards on us, guess what: that's how you spur progress in an industry that delights in being sedentary, and it's not like Nintendo is any different.  I seem to remember Nintendo "forcing" touch/motion control on us (neither of which I wanted), and they were just as insistent on 3D in the N64 era as any other company (or did you forget their big N64 launch title was a 3D Mario title?).  I think overall we turned out just fine.
 
I could write more, but I'm just about to come off my break so I'll leave it at this: Sony did what Ninten-didn't.  They didn't go out of their way to piss of 3rd party developers or the genres they worked in (Yamauchi's infamous comment about RPG gamers being losers comes to mind, given the rising popularity of RPGs at the time), they popularized a storage media (CDs) that lowered development costs across the board, localizations were significantly improved with less censorship, and they pushed for the development of New IPs (and still do) while Nintendo was quite content to stick with the tried and true.  We also saw more games make the crossing over to NA from Japan than ever before, though that may or may not have been coincidental alongside the rise of anime in the States.

[Guitar Smasher]

The word is "appeal".

No need to be condescending to those who were previously uninterested in video games.

No "trick" is the right word.  Usually gaming isn't rejected on its own merits but rather by bias.

Is there any evidence of this, or is this just your opinion?

Young males assumed games were for kids without trying them.

Or maybe the games that existed didn't appeal to them, so they didn't play. 

Non-gamers assumed games were too complicated without trying them.

Or maybe the games that existed didn't appeal to them, so they didn't play.

They weren't willing to put any effort into looking about what videogames had to offer.

Or maybe existing video games didn't offer anything appealing to them. 

So you have to trick them into trying videogames.  You have to make them think that THESE games are different and that it's okay for them to be playing them.

Or maybe these games are different, which is why they continue to maintain solid sales.  If it was just a trick, the illusion would've faded quickly and we wouldn't be seeing Madden/GTA/WiiFit continuing to be successes.  Of course this argument assumes that consumers aren't complete idiots.

[Ian Sane]

Or maybe these games are different, which is why they continue to maintain solid sales.  If it was just a trick, the illusion would've faded quickly and we wouldn't be seeing Madden/GTA/WiiFit continuing to be successes.

I see videogames as something that once you try it you will typically like it and continue to enjoy it.  So it's still a trick because I believe if most of those people tried gaming they would enjoy it.  If they were open-minded no one had to make Final Fantasy VII or Wii Sports to get them to play videogames.  Maybe "trick" should be swapped with "marketting"?  I'm arguing that games already do exist that would appeal to these people if they were willing to try them but they don't so you have to trick them.
 
I argue that if games had to be made to "appeal" to these people then gaming in fact was kiddy and later on was too complicated and I disagree with both of those.

[BlackNMild2k1]

and "marketing" should be switched with "appeal".

see now we've come full circle.

[Caterkiller]

Ok so I just got cast for one of Sony's Move ads. I was some axe wielding barbarian or something. It was shot this morning, and that guy who I  have seen at E3 (don't remember his name but great guy) told me I should see the photos up as early as tomorrow all the way through september! There will be a commercial too, but don't know anything about when it airs.

Anyway, I was holding an axe and shield while they had me pose and flail around. Then they replaced both props with real Move remotes. It felt pretty comfortable, didn't look nearly as goofy in person and really it was like holding the wiimote. Every click of the trigger made the ice cream flash a different color. It's supposed to be as good as wii motion plus and in some cases a bit better right? What ever the case it was heavily geared toward 2 remotes in each hand, which for the game I was pretending to play would be impossible to do unless it were on rails or some kind of fighting game. What I did was exactly like Nintendo's ads before it, should be interesting to see if they deliver.

With that, I really have no insight on the Move, just wanted to say I worked for Sony.