Author Topic: What got up David Jaffe's butt?  (Read 9816 times)

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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2009, 12:18:34 AM »
They make most of their revenue off of new games, though, and are the very pioneers of pre-order bonuses.  Digital Distribution will always be just over the corner, right around the bend, just as soon as they can make people fine with not owning anything.

Oh you are very wrong, new games bring razor thin margins, the retailers cut is small on a brand new game although it also depends if the retailer orders a small amount to a store (faster delivery) or a bulk order which includes many copies for less (generally slower). Used sales brings the most profit margins especially Gamestop considering the trade-in values vs how much they charge for used games.

I have talked to my friends who run a independent game store and love it or hate it but most of the profits are made by selling used items (and repairing consoles in their case). A console sale barely gets them anything(almost no profit), a new game has small profit margins depending on how much their distributor charges them for a game and they usually profit the most off of used games. That indy gamestore doesn't earn as much for a used game due to the fact that they typically charge less than Gamestop.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2009, 12:24:01 AM »
Also please stop the personal insults and personal attacks they will not be tolerated.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2009, 12:27:58 AM »
Quote
Oh you are very wrong, new games bring razor thin margins

I said revenue!  Revenue!  Not profits.  Yes, they do get a goodly amount of profit from the used games, but most of the foot traffic in their stores comes from new sales, as evidenced by the topic article.

Quote
The fact remains that over the past several years 37% to 42% of GameStop’s revenue comes from sales of new software whereas the used market accounts for 22% to 28%.

So they like, still sell more new games than anything.  This image of Gamestop willingly and knowingly driving used sales in a dastardly plot to destroy David Jaffe's development studio is ludicrous.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:30:28 AM by Deguello »
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Offline broodwars

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2009, 12:48:21 AM »
Listening to the linked Jaffe Youtube reply, I get the same impression of him that I got on the Bonus Round ( http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/bonusround/303?ch=1 ) : He sounds like a perfectly reasonable guy that's obviously passionate about what he does, but he doesn't have good social skills or tact.  His point is valid: used game sales on recent games (we're talking the $45-caliber stuff) hurt new game sales and in turn hurt the developers of that game because they don't see any money from it.  And mind you, when you whittle away all the costs that go into developing; producing; and marketing a game the developer sees very little return per sale in general.

Where I have a problem with him is that he seems to assume that the way to prevent these used game sales is to try to force by any means necessary stores to give them a portion of the sales.  Now, until very recently I wasn't very fond of trading my games in.  I've noticed, though, that of the games I've traded in very few of them have actually been good games, and those I did trade in were ones I really didn't think I'd ever play again.  This means I've traded in very few Nintendo games over the years, for example, and conversely a great number of mediocre 3rd party titles.  I know at some point down the line I'll want to play those games again.

With the economy as it is, I think the only true way to incentivize someone to keep their games and not put it back into marketplace is simply to make a better product, and then support that product with further incentives like DLC.  Is it fair to the developers that they have to find ways to incentivize us to pay them by proxy?  No, but it's the only way that will probably work and it increases the quality of the industry as a whole.  Look at Falllout 3, for example.  It's already an incredibly high-quality game to begin with, but when you're done with it you also have 5 DLC adventures you can still experience in that universe that don't detract from the original experience.  I can't imagine why anyone would trade that game in, because you're getting so much for your money, and most of it is awesome.

Unfortunately, we're approaching a very precarious crossroads.  As my father (who works at a major computer software company) constantly reminds me: when you purchase a piece of software you're not purchasing the software.  You're purchasing a license to use the software, and the manufacturer has the full legal right to tell you what you can do with it.  With DRM in place as it is you can't trade in or sell your newer computer software, at least not as easily.  What I worry about is if we can't find some sort of equilibirum on the used game problem, game companies are going to push to make our industry follow the rules of the computer software industry.  One way to that is through digital distribution, and another is through legal action.  Jaffe is borderline threatening both of these as eventualities.  If given the choice between that or having game companies take a portion of the proceeds from used game sales, I think we may have to put up with the latter to prevent the former because I don't think this tenuous status quo we have right now can last.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:51:24 AM by broodwars »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2009, 01:02:13 AM »
The license thing strongly depends on the jurisdictions, many courts have not accepted that as a valid claim because they recognize it's an attempt to circumvent the doctrine of first sale and little else while other jurisdictions simply have very strong limitations for what an EULa is allowed to demand and unilateral termination without compensation is on the list of banned things. Also console games don't come with EULAs anyway.

What I've noticed is that here too people talk like the switch to digital distribution is the publisher's call. It is not. Digital distribution will not work unless the customers accept it. To accept it the system must offer something the customer really wants that makes up for the disadvantages (significantly slower delivery, lack of ownership and physical representation, reduced versatility, no trade-in value, increased disk space usage, possibility of loss when the servers are shut down, possibly issues with bandwidth caps in some areas). I've bought digitally distributed games but only at prices way lower than what I'd have paid at retail. However that doesn't seem to be the plan, they don't want to sell their 70€ games for 20€ on the internet, they want to sell them for the full 70 AND have us swallow all the disadvantages. Digital distribution solves no problems for the customer, only for the publisher. iTunes solvedthe problem of having to buy music you don't want along with the music you want (Album sales) but digital distribution for videogames doesn't do anything like that.

If publishers just decide unilaterally that digital distribution is the only distribution in the future they will suffer massive revenue hits as the majority of their customers will not make the jump.

In an interview Iwata stated that he does not think customers are willing to go with digital distribution in the near future (for the distant future he said he can't make predictions for that long), that they won't change their ways that fast. Miyamoto, when asked, replied he wants a physical copy to hold in his hands. So Nintendo is NOT pushing it, they've got WiiWare and DSiWare but those are services for small and cheap games that wouldn't work at retail. The market leader in gaming does not think digital distribution is a good idea. You'd think people would put a bit more weight in their oppinion.

Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2009, 01:06:15 AM »
But why do they think they deserve a cut of the used sales?  That's what nobody has answered yet.  Authors don't demand a cut of used books.  So why David Jaffe?

The only reason given is that they might go out of business from the loss of revenue, but that can't solely be the reason they are struggling, is it?  Could it maybe be the ballooning costs of game development?  And if so, is that something to blame Gamestop and gamers who want to sell games for?

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Offline Pale

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2009, 05:58:20 AM »
Seriously guys.  I'm sick of D_Average looking for every Deg post so he can freak out and vice versa.  Infernal, stop coming it with random personal attacks.

This argument, while heated in the beginning, devolved to pointlessness.  There are too many warnings to try and hand out so I'm giving a big general one.

Everyone just cut it out, as Flames said.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2009, 07:11:40 AM »
Jaffe: "We're going with digital distribution and you can't do anything about it!"
We: "Yes we can! We can not buy your game and see you come crawling back because bigger and bigger margins can only grow your business so long before the lack of customers will take its toll."

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2009, 09:00:37 AM »
Seriously guys.  I'm sick of D_Average looking for every Deg post so he can freak out and vice versa.  Infernal, stop coming it with random personal attacks.

This argument, while heated in the beginning, devolved to pointlessness.  There are too many warnings to try and hand out so I'm giving a big general one.

Everyone just cut it out, as Flames said.

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Offline Djunknown

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2009, 10:36:19 PM »
The plot thickens... or is it over?
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Offline D_Average

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2009, 10:41:16 PM »
The plot thickens... or is it over?

Its over I'd say.  A smart move for Jaffe.  He's correct that no matter what he says, people will find a way to twist it into something its not.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2009, 11:21:10 PM »
I love how Jaffe gets a pass from people but heaven forbid forgiving Dyack for his incident. Jaffe is one guy that always came accross to me as an arrogant butthead but that is OK, let's attack Dyack.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2009, 12:03:07 AM »
The plot thickens... or is it over?

Its over I'd say.  A smart move for Jaffe.  He's correct that no matter what he says, people will find a way to twist it into something its not.

More like he had to get back on the PR train and realize telling a customer to "**** off" on the internet is pretty bad business.

He says he's not against used game sales, but his words spoke truer in the heat of the argument than they did after he had some time to think about it.

The smartest move would have been for him to have never spent time on the internet fighting with somebody.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2009, 12:25:20 AM »
I love how Jaffe gets a pass from people but heaven forbid forgiving Dyack for his incident. Jaffe is one guy that always came accross to me as an arrogant butthead but that is OK, let's attack Dyack.

Exactly which stupid thing Dyack said are you saying the internet in general won't forgive?  He's made a few by now.  Is it his complaints about how we shouldn't have game previews because journalists (accurately, it turns out) strongly criticized his E3 demo of Too Human?  His claims of the One Console Future (TM)?  Something he said I might have forgotten?  Take your pick.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 12:49:09 AM by broodwars »
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2009, 01:50:37 AM »
I love how Jaffe gets a pass from people but heaven forbid forgiving Dyack for his incident. Jaffe is one guy that always came accross to me as an arrogant butthead but that is OK, let's attack Dyack.

Exactly which stupid thing Dyack said are you saying the internet in general won't forgive?  He's made a few by now.  Is it his complaints about how we shouldn't have game previews because journalists (accurately, it turns out) strongly criticized his E3 demo of Too Human?  His claims of the One Console Future (TM)?  Something he said I might have forgotten?  Take your pick.

Don't get me started on Dyack, I think people that bash him are being over reactive jokes. I'll say this, Dyack has more creative talent then Jaffe can ever dream of.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 02:33:23 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline SixthAngel

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2009, 02:43:28 AM »
I think its hilarious when businesses pretend they are friendly and say things like "If you give us a cut of used games now when you have all the power we will screw you a little bit more slowly switching to dd." 
That isn't how business works.  The second DD is important enough for people to buy big games on it the games will be there.  The slim profit from a used game would be nowhere near a new game thats full DD and that doesn't matter because the companies will sell the games where the customers are regardless of which is more profitiable.  Gamestop giving them a cut will change nothing about the future.  Businesses don't return favors, they aren't people, they only care about the bottom line.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 02:49:47 AM by SixthAngel »

Offline Stogi

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2009, 01:49:07 PM »
I'd just like to play devil's advocate and say that businesses are more like people then you might imagine. Yes, it's dog eat dog, but back-stabbing companies is just bad business sense.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2009, 01:53:48 AM »
I'd just like to play devil's advocate and say that businesses are more like people then you might imagine. Yes, it's dog eat dog, but back-stabbing companies is just bad business sense.

Backstabbing people you think you don't need anymore?

Offline Stogi

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2009, 09:45:34 AM »
There are deals that are only contract deep, and then there are deals based on a long relationship.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2009, 06:09:25 PM »
I think Jaffe is just saying what most publishers are thinking.

Small devs need every sale they can get, and I'm sure Gamestop has basically killed some of these small devs because they've sucked the profits out of new games.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2009, 07:36:04 PM »
I think Jaffe is just saying what most publishers are thinking.

Small devs need every sale they can get, and I'm sure Gamestop has basically killed some of these small devs because they've sucked the profits out of new games.

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Offline D_Average

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2009, 09:14:32 PM »
What can I say, I felt bad for Jaffe.  So I picked up Calling All Cars today in all its HD cuteness glory! 

Actually, I was just bored, and bought it on impulse.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2009, 11:18:19 PM »
I think Jaffe is just saying what most publishers are thinking.

Small devs need every sale they can get, and I'm sure Gamestop has basically killed some of these small devs because they've sucked the profits out of new games.

I really doubt that, used sales aren't that massive (especially since they're limited by the number of unwanted copies out there) and would at most take up a part of the new sales. That part shouldn't be make or break when it comes to survival. The big publishers whine about it because they can't get growth done by not increasing their number of customers and instead try to get more and more money out of their existing userbase (70€ games, DLC, DRM, trying to prevent used sales, ...). They need to grow, all businesses do but they refuse to grow the number of people their game appeals to or just take that growth for granted (population growth) so they need to increase the revenue without needing to appeal to more people.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2009, 06:40:03 PM »
thats the deal with selling any sort of media, they have a shelf life, and it should be planned for. Companies like Nintendo make billions of dollar a year regardless of them being resold. The key is making more than enough different games to offset this. Most 3rd parties only make 1-4 games a year, Nintendo probably makes 30.Also, compared to regular games how much does gamestop price their used games? If they lowered their price gamestop would lose significant profit undercutting prices forcing them out of business, or at least forcing them out of the used business. Sell games for $24 instead of $60 and see what happens.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 06:48:38 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline Morari

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2009, 07:20:26 PM »
Sell games for $24 instead of $60 and see what happens.

More people will purchase new games more often. At $25, videogames essentially become an impulse buy. You don't have to worry yourself with reviews, word of mouth, careful study, rentals, or trials at a friends house to ensure its worth. Really, I look at good, thick novels that are cheaper than that and laugh. A book has actual, physical materials that account for its cost. Games do not. It's all rape. Good old, financial rape.
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