Author Topic: What got up David Jaffe's butt?  (Read 8425 times)

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Offline Deguello

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What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« on: August 29, 2009, 05:23:05 PM »
http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/in_which_i_get_into_a_twitter_fight_with_game_developer_david_jaffe/

Whoa this really got out of hand for a guy who just wants to know why David Jaffe doesn't like a consumer's right to sell their property after they buy it.  I remember Mike Capps from Epic also stated his ire for used games and wanting to digitally distribute game endings, which basically means selling incomplete games on purpose.

Is this a trend we should be worried about?  Is there any reason there is this push to deny the right to own a video game?  Is this the sort of response people should expect when they want to actually own their video games?

And wow, David Jaffe has a pretty short fuse.  Could anybody imagine Shigeru Miyamoto or Will Wright or hell, even Shinji Mikami or Suda 51 responding to a gamer's issues with "**** off?"

Jeez.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 05:32:49 PM »
Jaffe has always came across as having a short fuse.

Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 05:33:47 PM »
Jaffe has always came across as having a short fuse.

But he is such a creative genius.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 05:36:30 PM »
Is he such a creative genius that he deserves a cut of used game sales?  Not even actual creative geniuses demand that.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 05:46:54 PM »
Is he such a creative genius that he deserves a cut of used game sales?  Not even actual creative geniuses demand that.

Have you played God of War? I mine the creativity in those games, not just anyone can create such complex and well written games. Of course he deserves used game sales!
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Offline Morari

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 06:07:37 PM »
Is this a trend we should be worried about?  Is there any reason there is this push to deny the right to own a video game?  Is this the sort of response people should expect when they want to actually own their video games?

Yes.

Welcome to the world of DRM and digital distribution. Your rights mean nothing. The product tha tyou purchased is not actually yours to own, simply rent. as such, it will become obsolete and completely unplayable in a few years times. Tough luck for you, now **** off.
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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 06:19:26 PM »
What's the big deal? He seems to have no problem with used game sales, he just wants game developers to get a cut. Car manufacturers do that with used cars.

The guy from Epic Games sounded like a dick though. Not for the first time either.

I also hate the whole DRM thing for digital games and how you are legally just buying a license to play the game and not the game itself.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 06:27:04 PM »
Why would he deserve a cut from me selling a game back to Gamestop?  Why would he then deserve a cut from Gamestop selling the game to somebody else?  How come in his video response he said the gamer would "pirate games" just because he wants to be able to sell his property back to a store?
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Online broodwars

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 06:39:30 PM »
I'm currently reading the twitter replies right now that the guy posted (which, mind you, is a little painful with all the internet abbreviations), but so far all I have to say is that I'm glad David Jaffe has yet to make a game I actually like and want to buy.  I was mildly curious about God of War, but thankfully my best friend loaned me his copy of those two games and they were just as mediocre (except in production values) as I expected.  I recommend if you want to see more of Jaffe on this subject to check out the Gametrailers Bonus Round series of videos about the Used Game market, since he's one of the panelists.
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Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 07:11:13 PM »
David Jaffe is gonna be pissed that you borrowed your friend's game without sending him some money. The (not-so) simple answer is to boycott GameStop and create the ultimate game-trading website - run by gamers themselves, and not businessmen. Gaming is a hobby. Buy a game, play it, sell it at a fair price.

Offline BranDonk Kong

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 07:14:25 PM »
Oh, and to answer the question in the topic - I'd say Robin Clarke's cock.

Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 07:15:46 PM »
Though I don't agree with Jaffe, or play any of his games. I admire his candid expletives.  Its a breath of fresh air.  I'll never forgot the time he put joystiq in their rightful place.  I'd be frustrated too if I lost thousands of sales over a measly five bucks.  I'd never pay 5 dollars less for a game covered in germs, but the system is fair.  Just a byproduct of the invisible hand.

He should just look on the bright side and be glad he's not in the music industry. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 07:19:18 PM by D_Average »
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 07:29:53 PM »
Being angry and foul-mouthed all the time on the internet is nothing fresh.  No, not at all.  He has a right to be frustrated, but everybody gets frustrated.  He just goes around insulting people on the internet, including his fans, which is pretty off-putting, considering he really hasn't been that influential at all.  At least not influential enough to demand this:

Quote
Jaffe: I think it’s pretty rude to resell a game I worked on with 0% degradation between used and new and not cut me in on the deal.

Wow.
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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 09:00:41 PM »
Most developers I see interviewed stay pretty close to the PR train.  Thats why I find him "refreshing", even though I rarely agree with him.  If anyone is curious, here is his youtube follow up to the twitty fight where he elaborates a bit on the topic.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 09:37:20 PM »
His youtube response is pretty bad.  He acts like his customers are "smarmy and self-entitled" because they want the right to sell what they have paid money for without giving him a cut.  What the hell?

And I don't see where he gets off cursing people who criticize him on the internet.  That's just not a good way to get customers, and is... well... pretty damn arrogant.  I mean he's whining that he's not getting a cut of used sales?  How about, make games people want to buy and not sell back, like Mario Kart?  Why does he think he's so special?

And I'd say he's pretty close to a PR train for Sony, because they are about to launch a Digital Distribution only handheld and wowee, suddenly he's pushing Digital Distribution as a solution to those pesky customer who want to own something and be able to sell it back without giving him a cut of the money.

EDIT: Oh yeah bonus asshat points for insinuating everybody wants to pirate games in response to them going digital distribution.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:40:28 PM by Deguello »
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Offline Infernal Monkey

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 09:53:38 PM »
I bought God of War on clearance and ended up hating it, so I traded it, and got like a massive $4 or something for it. The next day I found David Jaffe in my kitchen, eating my Corn Flakes. I was all, "hey come on now David Jaffe, you can't just eat my Corn Flakes without asking! And breaking down my door! And why is there sperm all over my toothbrush, I don't remember doin-" but veins started popping out of David Jaffe's neck. He was mad. Real mad.

He threw the spoon to the floor and came at me with all his might. Being shorter than a toddler, he simply bounced back upon making contact with my knee. "YOU CAN'T SELL SOMETHING I MADE" he screamed, tears forming in his eyes. "I MADE GOD OF WAR, IT WAS ME, I WAS THE SINGLE DEVELOPER, I PUBLISHED IT, I HANDLED PUBLIC RELATIONS, I ADVERTISED IT, GOD OF WAR IS MY BABY, AND YOU'RE SELLING IT, MY BABY!"

I paused. That poor man. I had no idea. I put my hand on his head (having to bend down in order to do so). "There, there, little guy, it's okay". I then threw him out of my house via the kitchen window. The cool breeze swept him away like a plastic bag.

Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2009, 10:10:53 PM »
And I'd say he's pretty close to a PR train for Sony, because they are about to launch a Digital Distribution only handheld and wowee, suddenly he's pushing Digital Distribution as a solution to those pesky customer who want to own something and be able to sell it back without giving him a cut of the money.

I don't see that as sticking close to the PR train.  Everybody is pushing DD now.  Sony, MS, Nintendo, Valve, Apple, its here to stay.  And it is a solution for pubs who lose money to gamers who play a game for a week, trade it in, and GS sells it for five dollars less.  This is not somthing you see in the car, movie, sports, clothing, etc industry.  Its rare to buy a product and sell it off so quickly.  But it happens with games and music.  Games, b/c there are some games you only need to play once (like Mario Galaxy, Uncharted, Braid).  Its not a knock on the game, and some gamers certainly go back to them, but there are many who play the game, enjoy it for what it is, and move on to somthing else.

David does make a good point that Gamestop is setting themselves up for failure.  The longer they refuse to join hands with pubs on re-sells, the faster DD will arive and kill them completely.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2009, 10:11:30 PM »
Apparently when Sony execs and devs are arrogant, it's a "breath of fresh air" to their lackeys, shills, marketers, "art" lovers, "art" makers,  and that multitude of "new customers" that "expanded the industry" and know/understand what classic gaming is because their first console was the original PlayStation.

"Jaffe: I think it’s pretty rude to resell a game I worked on with 0% degradation between used and new and not cut me in on the deal."
On the topic of God of Secondary Transactions Revenue, the system is fair.  Customer A buys a game product from the typical industry institution that runs all the way from the game developer to the retailer at some initial asking price, ie. the "original copy."  Later on, Customer A comes to the conclusion that the game product isn't VALUABLE enough to continue keeping it, so off it goes into the process of used game selling (direct, indirect, whatever).  Then Customer B snatches it up.  Should Jaffe get a piece of that sale?  HELL NAW!  That silly game disc fell out of the institutional loop once Customer A gave it up.  Customer B isn't getting something from Jaffe Game Programming Friends anymore, it's now a disc Customer A is willing to give up.  If Jaffe is supposed to "make more money," he's supposed to make games that customers VALUE and therefore KEEP, and at the same time attracts BRAND NEW CUSTOMERS, because a "kept" game is surely not a "used" game that's available for resale.  A product that's valued, kept, and unavailable used can seem more attractive to those potential "new" customers (neverminding those dedicated deal-seekers).  A product with strong value won't be characterized by Customer B taking the place of Customer A to be "the Customer" at the given time ("one product unit, one active customer" idea).  So devs, shutup and make better products, products worth keeping.

I've never heard Miyamoto or Iwata demand a cut of used sales.  They probably practice an unorthodox business strategy called "common sense," which might not be the easiest thing to master or execute with favorable results everytime, since it's application is pretty rare in the world in the first place.  Common sense didn't say "jam so much stuff into one machine, making it $600 before tax.  People will get it, regardless, surpassing the market performance of the previous machine."  Man, that's like, arrogant.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2009, 10:23:08 PM »
Quote
I don't see that as sticking close to the PR train.  Everybody is pushing DD now.  Sony, MS, Nintendo, Valve, Apple, its here to stay.

I disagree as to Nintendo pushing Digital Distribution.  If anything they are profiting greatly off the old model of selling actual products for money.  WiiWare and DSiWare EXIST, but they aren't really loading it with their best games, which they save for the actual printing presses.  And how is it not sticking close to the PR train if everybody (ostensibly) is pushing it?  Wouldn't he still be pimping what Sony's about to do?

Quote
And it is a solution for pubs who lose money to gamers who play a game for a week, trade it in, and GS sells it for five dollars less.

But somebody bought the game once.  What if he knows he can't sell it if it's bad or he's "done" with it?  Will he even buy games at all?  How would you get back that lost sale?

Quote
This is not somthing you see in the car, movie, sports, clothing, etc industry.  Its rare to buy a product and sell it off so quickly.

Yeah, you see it ALL THE TIME, bud.  It's called RENTING.  And Seconhand clothing, used music, refurbished and secondhand sports, and used cars also exist too.

Quote
David does make a good point that Gamestop is setting themselves up for failure.  The longer they refuse to join hands with pubs on re-sells, the faster DD will arive and kill them completely.

How?  By being profitable?  This isn't "joining hands," this is a few game developers and publishers trying to threaten the store into giving them a cut of sales they have no right to or they'll try to starve them of products, which will be hilarious to watch when they realize that they need Gamestop, Walmart, etc/ to actually sell their hardware too, unless they have a digital distribution plan for their consoles.
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Offline Infernal Monkey

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2009, 10:29:25 PM »

David does make a good point that Gamestop is setting themselves up for failure.  The longer they refuse to join hands with pubs on re-sells, the faster DD will arive and kill them completely.

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2009, 11:18:04 PM »
Quote
I disagree as to Nintendo pushing Digital Distribution.  If anything they are profiting greatly off the old model of selling actual products for money.  WiiWare and DSiWare EXIST, but they aren't really loading it with their best games, which they save for the actual printing presses.  And how is it not sticking close to the PR train if everybody (ostensibly) is pushing it?  Wouldn't he still be pimping what Sony's about to do?

Why would you not pimp it?  Its convienent, more effecient, and will generate more revenue by eliminating middle men.  There is nothing wrong with this.  After all, its a buisness.  Considering Jaffe has been chastised by Sony for saying things on his blog in the past, it is a brute fact he does not stick close to the PR train. 

Quote
Yeah, you see it ALL THE TIME, bud.  It's called RENTING.  And Seconhand clothing, used music, refurbished and secondhand sports, and used cars also exist too.

Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

Quote
How?  By being profitable?  This isn't "joining hands," this is a few game developers and publishers trying to threaten the store into giving them a cut of sales they have no right to or they'll try to starve them of products, which will be hilarious to watch when they realize that they need Gamestop, Walmart, etc/ to actually sell their hardware too, unless they have a digital distribution plan for their consoles.

They only need those whores for now.  Wasn't there a huge music store a while back that recently tanked??  Oh yeah, Tower Records.  And now Sam Goody, Virgin and everything in between are being slayed by lil ole iTunes.  These stores used to be giants.

The same fate will obviously hit Gamestop unless they change their model, its become a foregone conclusion.  While there are gamers opposed to DD, recent sales of games like Battlefield 1943 have shown its a successful model and will only grow as the world becomes more connected.

And finally, to summarize, I believe the model Jaffe is b####ing about is FAIR, but frustrating.  I'm just saying I can see where he is coming from and I appreciate his candor on the subject.  And if he or somebody else can figure out a better way to do it without screwing us over, great. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 11:20:11 PM by D_Average »
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2009, 11:56:03 PM »
Quote
Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

Sarcasm fail.  People do this all the time.  Most of the time, these stores have return policies, which means you can just bring it back for a full refund (or store credit.)  And how did this idea of a gamer who sells the game the next week become the norm?  Are we sure it isn't some sort of strawman erected for the easiness of knocking down for the purposes of denying the right of first sale?

Quote
They only need those whores for now.  Wasn't there a huge music store a while back that recently tanked??  Oh yeah, Tower Records.  And now Sam Goody, Virgin and everything in between are being slayed by lil ole iTunes.  These stores used to be giants.

iTunes and DRM games are not the same.  Apple doesn't want a cut of you copying your music to your computer or trading it to somebody else.

Quote
The same fate will obviously hit Gamestop unless they change their model, its become a foregone conclusion.  While there are gamers opposed to DD, recent sales of games like Battlefield 1943 have shown its a successful model and will only grow as the world becomes more connected.

They make most of their revenue off of new games, though, and are the very pioneers of pre-order bonuses.  Digital Distribution will always be just over the corner, right around the bend, just as soon as they can make people fine with not owning anything.
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Offline Infernal Monkey

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 12:05:47 AM »

Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

Yes, yes, we all know you're a dickhead. No need to try your hand at sarcasm and fail at it completely. I do love that you assume everyone trades in every game they buy the very next week, though. That's a special kind of brain damage, right there. You and Jaffe would get along just fine. Remember though, he's only a little man, please keep that in mind next time you stick your head up his arse.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2009, 12:17:13 AM »
I say if Jaffe has a problem with GS buying back used games and then selling them for $5 less than the new version, then why doesn't he buy back all the used games that gamers don't want to assure himself that only new copies can be found?

Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2009, 12:17:30 AM »

Come to think about it.  I buy clothes all the time and then sell them on Craigslist the next week.  I do the same thing with skateboards, jockstraps, and especially cars.  After the first week, it'd be silly to not go through the long arduous process of buying and selling another car.  Guess you have a point there.

Yes, yes, we all know you're a dickhead. No need to try your hand at sarcasm and fail at it completely. I do love that you assume everyone trades in every game they buy the very next week, though. That's a special kind of brain damage, right there. You and Jaffe would get along just fine. Remember though, he's only a little man, please keep that in mind next time you stick your head up his arse.

Anyone who tries to say the used game/music market is equivalent to the clothing/car market is deficient in reason.  You and Jug are not worth debating with.  I'm done with you two.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2009, 12:18:34 AM »
They make most of their revenue off of new games, though, and are the very pioneers of pre-order bonuses.  Digital Distribution will always be just over the corner, right around the bend, just as soon as they can make people fine with not owning anything.

Oh you are very wrong, new games bring razor thin margins, the retailers cut is small on a brand new game although it also depends if the retailer orders a small amount to a store (faster delivery) or a bulk order which includes many copies for less (generally slower). Used sales brings the most profit margins especially Gamestop considering the trade-in values vs how much they charge for used games.

I have talked to my friends who run a independent game store and love it or hate it but most of the profits are made by selling used items (and repairing consoles in their case). A console sale barely gets them anything(almost no profit), a new game has small profit margins depending on how much their distributor charges them for a game and they usually profit the most off of used games. That indy gamestore doesn't earn as much for a used game due to the fact that they typically charge less than Gamestop.
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2009, 12:24:01 AM »
Also please stop the personal insults and personal attacks they will not be tolerated.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2009, 12:27:58 AM »
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Oh you are very wrong, new games bring razor thin margins

I said revenue!  Revenue!  Not profits.  Yes, they do get a goodly amount of profit from the used games, but most of the foot traffic in their stores comes from new sales, as evidenced by the topic article.

Quote
The fact remains that over the past several years 37% to 42% of GameStop’s revenue comes from sales of new software whereas the used market accounts for 22% to 28%.

So they like, still sell more new games than anything.  This image of Gamestop willingly and knowingly driving used sales in a dastardly plot to destroy David Jaffe's development studio is ludicrous.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:30:28 AM by Deguello »
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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2009, 12:48:21 AM »
Listening to the linked Jaffe Youtube reply, I get the same impression of him that I got on the Bonus Round ( http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/bonusround/303?ch=1 ) : He sounds like a perfectly reasonable guy that's obviously passionate about what he does, but he doesn't have good social skills or tact.  His point is valid: used game sales on recent games (we're talking the $45-caliber stuff) hurt new game sales and in turn hurt the developers of that game because they don't see any money from it.  And mind you, when you whittle away all the costs that go into developing; producing; and marketing a game the developer sees very little return per sale in general.

Where I have a problem with him is that he seems to assume that the way to prevent these used game sales is to try to force by any means necessary stores to give them a portion of the sales.  Now, until very recently I wasn't very fond of trading my games in.  I've noticed, though, that of the games I've traded in very few of them have actually been good games, and those I did trade in were ones I really didn't think I'd ever play again.  This means I've traded in very few Nintendo games over the years, for example, and conversely a great number of mediocre 3rd party titles.  I know at some point down the line I'll want to play those games again.

With the economy as it is, I think the only true way to incentivize someone to keep their games and not put it back into marketplace is simply to make a better product, and then support that product with further incentives like DLC.  Is it fair to the developers that they have to find ways to incentivize us to pay them by proxy?  No, but it's the only way that will probably work and it increases the quality of the industry as a whole.  Look at Falllout 3, for example.  It's already an incredibly high-quality game to begin with, but when you're done with it you also have 5 DLC adventures you can still experience in that universe that don't detract from the original experience.  I can't imagine why anyone would trade that game in, because you're getting so much for your money, and most of it is awesome.

Unfortunately, we're approaching a very precarious crossroads.  As my father (who works at a major computer software company) constantly reminds me: when you purchase a piece of software you're not purchasing the software.  You're purchasing a license to use the software, and the manufacturer has the full legal right to tell you what you can do with it.  With DRM in place as it is you can't trade in or sell your newer computer software, at least not as easily.  What I worry about is if we can't find some sort of equilibirum on the used game problem, game companies are going to push to make our industry follow the rules of the computer software industry.  One way to that is through digital distribution, and another is through legal action.  Jaffe is borderline threatening both of these as eventualities.  If given the choice between that or having game companies take a portion of the proceeds from used game sales, I think we may have to put up with the latter to prevent the former because I don't think this tenuous status quo we have right now can last.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 12:51:24 AM by broodwars »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2009, 01:02:13 AM »
The license thing strongly depends on the jurisdictions, many courts have not accepted that as a valid claim because they recognize it's an attempt to circumvent the doctrine of first sale and little else while other jurisdictions simply have very strong limitations for what an EULa is allowed to demand and unilateral termination without compensation is on the list of banned things. Also console games don't come with EULAs anyway.

What I've noticed is that here too people talk like the switch to digital distribution is the publisher's call. It is not. Digital distribution will not work unless the customers accept it. To accept it the system must offer something the customer really wants that makes up for the disadvantages (significantly slower delivery, lack of ownership and physical representation, reduced versatility, no trade-in value, increased disk space usage, possibility of loss when the servers are shut down, possibly issues with bandwidth caps in some areas). I've bought digitally distributed games but only at prices way lower than what I'd have paid at retail. However that doesn't seem to be the plan, they don't want to sell their 70€ games for 20€ on the internet, they want to sell them for the full 70 AND have us swallow all the disadvantages. Digital distribution solves no problems for the customer, only for the publisher. iTunes solvedthe problem of having to buy music you don't want along with the music you want (Album sales) but digital distribution for videogames doesn't do anything like that.

If publishers just decide unilaterally that digital distribution is the only distribution in the future they will suffer massive revenue hits as the majority of their customers will not make the jump.

In an interview Iwata stated that he does not think customers are willing to go with digital distribution in the near future (for the distant future he said he can't make predictions for that long), that they won't change their ways that fast. Miyamoto, when asked, replied he wants a physical copy to hold in his hands. So Nintendo is NOT pushing it, they've got WiiWare and DSiWare but those are services for small and cheap games that wouldn't work at retail. The market leader in gaming does not think digital distribution is a good idea. You'd think people would put a bit more weight in their oppinion.

Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2009, 01:06:15 AM »
But why do they think they deserve a cut of the used sales?  That's what nobody has answered yet.  Authors don't demand a cut of used books.  So why David Jaffe?

The only reason given is that they might go out of business from the loss of revenue, but that can't solely be the reason they are struggling, is it?  Could it maybe be the ballooning costs of game development?  And if so, is that something to blame Gamestop and gamers who want to sell games for?

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Offline Pale

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2009, 05:58:20 AM »
Seriously guys.  I'm sick of D_Average looking for every Deg post so he can freak out and vice versa.  Infernal, stop coming it with random personal attacks.

This argument, while heated in the beginning, devolved to pointlessness.  There are too many warnings to try and hand out so I'm giving a big general one.

Everyone just cut it out, as Flames said.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2009, 07:11:40 AM »
Jaffe: "We're going with digital distribution and you can't do anything about it!"
We: "Yes we can! We can not buy your game and see you come crawling back because bigger and bigger margins can only grow your business so long before the lack of customers will take its toll."

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2009, 09:00:37 AM »
Seriously guys.  I'm sick of D_Average looking for every Deg post so he can freak out and vice versa.  Infernal, stop coming it with random personal attacks.

This argument, while heated in the beginning, devolved to pointlessness.  There are too many warnings to try and hand out so I'm giving a big general one.

Everyone just cut it out, as Flames said.

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Offline Djunknown

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2009, 10:36:19 PM »
The plot thickens... or is it over?
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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2009, 10:41:16 PM »
The plot thickens... or is it over?

Its over I'd say.  A smart move for Jaffe.  He's correct that no matter what he says, people will find a way to twist it into something its not.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2009, 11:21:10 PM »
I love how Jaffe gets a pass from people but heaven forbid forgiving Dyack for his incident. Jaffe is one guy that always came accross to me as an arrogant butthead but that is OK, let's attack Dyack.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2009, 12:03:07 AM »
The plot thickens... or is it over?

Its over I'd say.  A smart move for Jaffe.  He's correct that no matter what he says, people will find a way to twist it into something its not.

More like he had to get back on the PR train and realize telling a customer to "**** off" on the internet is pretty bad business.

He says he's not against used game sales, but his words spoke truer in the heat of the argument than they did after he had some time to think about it.

The smartest move would have been for him to have never spent time on the internet fighting with somebody.
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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2009, 12:25:20 AM »
I love how Jaffe gets a pass from people but heaven forbid forgiving Dyack for his incident. Jaffe is one guy that always came accross to me as an arrogant butthead but that is OK, let's attack Dyack.

Exactly which stupid thing Dyack said are you saying the internet in general won't forgive?  He's made a few by now.  Is it his complaints about how we shouldn't have game previews because journalists (accurately, it turns out) strongly criticized his E3 demo of Too Human?  His claims of the One Console Future (TM)?  Something he said I might have forgotten?  Take your pick.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 12:49:09 AM by broodwars »
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2009, 01:50:37 AM »
I love how Jaffe gets a pass from people but heaven forbid forgiving Dyack for his incident. Jaffe is one guy that always came accross to me as an arrogant butthead but that is OK, let's attack Dyack.

Exactly which stupid thing Dyack said are you saying the internet in general won't forgive?  He's made a few by now.  Is it his complaints about how we shouldn't have game previews because journalists (accurately, it turns out) strongly criticized his E3 demo of Too Human?  His claims of the One Console Future (TM)?  Something he said I might have forgotten?  Take your pick.

Don't get me started on Dyack, I think people that bash him are being over reactive jokes. I'll say this, Dyack has more creative talent then Jaffe can ever dream of.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 02:33:23 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2009, 02:43:28 AM »
I think its hilarious when businesses pretend they are friendly and say things like "If you give us a cut of used games now when you have all the power we will screw you a little bit more slowly switching to dd." 
That isn't how business works.  The second DD is important enough for people to buy big games on it the games will be there.  The slim profit from a used game would be nowhere near a new game thats full DD and that doesn't matter because the companies will sell the games where the customers are regardless of which is more profitiable.  Gamestop giving them a cut will change nothing about the future.  Businesses don't return favors, they aren't people, they only care about the bottom line.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 02:49:47 AM by SixthAngel »

Offline Stogi

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2009, 01:49:07 PM »
I'd just like to play devil's advocate and say that businesses are more like people then you might imagine. Yes, it's dog eat dog, but back-stabbing companies is just bad business sense.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2009, 01:53:48 AM »
I'd just like to play devil's advocate and say that businesses are more like people then you might imagine. Yes, it's dog eat dog, but back-stabbing companies is just bad business sense.

Backstabbing people you think you don't need anymore?

Offline Stogi

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2009, 09:45:34 AM »
There are deals that are only contract deep, and then there are deals based on a long relationship.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2009, 06:09:25 PM »
I think Jaffe is just saying what most publishers are thinking.

Small devs need every sale they can get, and I'm sure Gamestop has basically killed some of these small devs because they've sucked the profits out of new games.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2009, 07:36:04 PM »
I think Jaffe is just saying what most publishers are thinking.

Small devs need every sale they can get, and I'm sure Gamestop has basically killed some of these small devs because they've sucked the profits out of new games.

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2009, 09:14:32 PM »
What can I say, I felt bad for Jaffe.  So I picked up Calling All Cars today in all its HD cuteness glory! 

Actually, I was just bored, and bought it on impulse.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2009, 11:18:19 PM »
I think Jaffe is just saying what most publishers are thinking.

Small devs need every sale they can get, and I'm sure Gamestop has basically killed some of these small devs because they've sucked the profits out of new games.

I really doubt that, used sales aren't that massive (especially since they're limited by the number of unwanted copies out there) and would at most take up a part of the new sales. That part shouldn't be make or break when it comes to survival. The big publishers whine about it because they can't get growth done by not increasing their number of customers and instead try to get more and more money out of their existing userbase (70€ games, DLC, DRM, trying to prevent used sales, ...). They need to grow, all businesses do but they refuse to grow the number of people their game appeals to or just take that growth for granted (population growth) so they need to increase the revenue without needing to appeal to more people.

Offline ThePerm

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2009, 06:40:03 PM »
thats the deal with selling any sort of media, they have a shelf life, and it should be planned for. Companies like Nintendo make billions of dollar a year regardless of them being resold. The key is making more than enough different games to offset this. Most 3rd parties only make 1-4 games a year, Nintendo probably makes 30.Also, compared to regular games how much does gamestop price their used games? If they lowered their price gamestop would lose significant profit undercutting prices forcing them out of business, or at least forcing them out of the used business. Sell games for $24 instead of $60 and see what happens.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 06:48:38 PM by ThePerm »
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Offline Morari

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2009, 07:20:26 PM »
Sell games for $24 instead of $60 and see what happens.

More people will purchase new games more often. At $25, videogames essentially become an impulse buy. You don't have to worry yourself with reviews, word of mouth, careful study, rentals, or trials at a friends house to ensure its worth. Really, I look at good, thick novels that are cheaper than that and laugh. A book has actual, physical materials that account for its cost. Games do not. It's all rape. Good old, financial rape.
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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2009, 12:50:42 PM »
I really doubt that, used sales aren't that massive (especially since they're limited by the number of unwanted copies out there) and would at most take up a part of the new sales. That part shouldn't be make or break when it comes to survival. The big publishers whine about it because they can't get growth done by not increasing their number of customers and instead try to get more and more money out of their existing userbase (70€ games, DLC, DRM, trying to prevent used sales, ...). They need to grow, all businesses do but they refuse to grow the number of people their game appeals to or just take that growth for granted (population growth) so they need to increase the revenue without needing to appeal to more people.

I'm sure there are many games that just barely got picked up by a publisher and given a chance, yet returned disappointing sales numbers due to used sales eating into its profits.

But I can only speculate on those scenarios. What I know for a FACT is that Gamestop has not gone unnoticed by publishers, hence why Sony is bringing out a PSP that only supports downloadable games. Whether they'll meet with any degree of success in this venture is anyone's guess.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: What got up David Jaffe's butt?
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2009, 01:16:20 PM »
Games that had disappointing sales most likely would have had them without used sales too.