Topic: Help Feature Confirmed for New Super Mario Bros. Wii

[GoldenPhoenix]

I wonder if this will be an advertised feature, if they will put a little icon on the cover of games which use this system. Could this be a selling point? Someone might have played a previous Mario game and enjoyed it, but might have reached a tough spot they couldn't get past. If they saw this game and found out about the help system, might they be more interested in trying out another Mario game knowing they could be helped through trouble spots?

Well, we've had some precedence for this in the past.  You might remember that Alone in the Dark last year tried to make its Chapter Skip feature a major selling point.  I haven't seen sales data on the various versions of the game, but I can't remember it selling too well (of course, every version being buggy as hell didn't help it).

That isn't like this feature though, at all, it looks like you can jump right in whenever you want. It isn't a chapter skip (which has been done for ages via cheat codes), also I'm not sure Alone in the Dark has much mass market appeal, not to mention the game sucked beyond words. There is little comparison to Mario which has a mass market appeal, not to mention I think it is safe to say the game will actually be very good.

I guess this all boils down to one's faith in Nintendo to cater to the entire market rather than the one that's been buying all the Wiis.  You have it, and I don't.  Fair enough.

Yeah I forgot, they are releasing that Mario Galaxy expansion pack next year, who would have faith in them after that?

Funny I thought I owned a Wii, and about 50 million others own one too. Sounds like a pretty good market to cater to! But I'm not going any farther into this ridiculous retread discussion on Wii and Nntendo. This about a feature that could open the doors more to people enjoying a 2D Mario platformer, it is an experiment but I definitely have more faith in Miyamoto to implement it correctly then broodwars or others. It can be a wonderful thing that helps even the playing field so the difficulty doesn't need to be dumbed down, or it can be a crutch to poor level design. I have enough respect in Miyamoto to give him the benefit of the doubt. Now if it was Sony, I would be extremely concerned (Oh no I didn't!).

[broodwars]

That isn't like this feature though, at all, it looks like you can jump right in whenever you want. It isn't a chapter skip (which has been done for ages via cheat codes), also I'm not sure Alone in the Dark has much mass market appeal, not to mention the game sucked beyond words. There is little comparison to Mario which has a mass market appeal, not to mention I think it is safe to say the game will actually be very good.

The Chapter Skip feature in Alone in the Dark is a bit more flexible than your typical Chapter Selection feature, as the entire game is available from the get-go and you can skip forward or back at any point in the game (not just from the main menu).  It was designed to allow people who couldn't figure out a puzzle or get past an enemy the ability to enjoy the entire game, plus allow people to go back and enjoy parts of the game they particularly liked.  It wasn't that dissimilar to this new Nintendo feature, at least in core concept.  And incidentally, despite the Xbox 360; PS2; and ESPECIALLY the Wii versions of Alone in the Dark being utterly horrid (yeah, I bought the later when it came out last year), the PS3 version's actually pretty decent (they delayed it 6 months to correct the more-aggregious bugs).  It's still a technical mess in places, but at least you can enjoy what the developers were trying to do.

Yeah I forgot, they are releasing that Mario Galaxy expansion pack next year, who would have faith in them after that?

You mock my referring to that game as the $50 Mario Galaxy Expansion Pack, but Miyamoto isn't doing your cause any favors with his "it'll have 90% new levels!" comment.

And as for Sony, I don't think anyone's arguing that they don't have critical issues of their own.

[NWR_insanolord]

Once again, exactly what reason do we have to believe Nintendo will actually make their games more challenging to compensate for this feature? 

The fact that impressions from E3 say that the game is more challenging.

[Mop it up]

Hasn't Nintendo (or somebody from Nintendo) said that both New Super Mario Brothers Wii and Super Mario Galaxy 2 are going to be more difficult than their predecessors?

[NWR_insanolord]

I'm pretty sure it was Miyamoto who said that about Galaxy 2, to the point that that was one of the reasons they were making it.

[NWR_Lindy]

The Logical, Industry-Minded Gamer in me says this is brilliant, and a great way to allow games to be accessible to more players.

The Old-School, Unforgiving Gamer in me says that this is ridiculous, and a further example of what I call the Pussification of Video Gaming.

Shake those up in a box and I come out absolutely neutral to this because it doesn't affect me.

[that Baby guy]

Wow... Anyone who's protesting the feature needs to relax, and just take it easy.

Have you ever turned on a game, and watched the short demo movie of the game, where the character goes and does something, something a normal player wouldn't do, and then gone in the game, and repeated the feat yourself?  Donkey Kong comes to mind, they show off some secret areas in the opening demos of some stages.

Did you get angry then?

It's a trick question.  If you did, you'd know those videos aren't truly optional if it took you any time to press the start button.  They are what hits the screen, and you couldn't avoid them in any other way.  If you didn't, well, you're just a hypocrite, since what we're talking about is exactly that, only with the possibility of the player jumping in and taking control at any point.  Of course, there's demos for every stage, but you can watch what you want, and ignore what you want.

It was alright on the SNES, but not now?  It was alright on the Nintendo 64, but not now?  What's the deal?

[Stogi]

"Pussification of Video Gaming"

Really? You think games have gotten easier than in the past?

[broodwars]

"Pussification of Video Gaming"

Really? You think games have gotten easier than in the past?

Sadistic showcases like Ninja Gaiden and the final area of God of War aside, what makes you think they've gotten harder or stayed the same?

[GoldenPhoenix]

"Pussification of Video Gaming"

Really? You think games have gotten easier than in the past?

Sadistic showcases like Ninja Gaiden and the final area of God of War aside, what makes you think they've gotten harder or stayed the same?

I have trouble falling into this "games are getting easier or harder" argument, because games are just different now. Back in the NES days, a "hard" game was one where you'd have cheap enemies constantly knocking you into holes. Now days you have games trying different things, including trying to tell a story while trying to keep the player engaged. I guess it all depends what you consider what makes a game dfficult without being poorly designed.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I sorta agree with Lindy, but I'm not sure games have gotten easier over the years so much as we have just gotten really good at games in general.

We've all developed the hand eye coordination that new gamers have yet to perfect. We've also had so much practice with these games as they have evolved over the years that we understand how most of them work and now it seems almost second nature to know hat it takes to beat most of them.

As I said in my first reply, this is simply Nintendo making gaming more accessible to the NEW gamer while not taking anything away from teh experienced gamer.
I just witnessed this in effect and that feature could have really come in handy.
I just watched a little girl enjoying the hell out of Super Princess Peach until she got to some boss. She couldn't beat the boss after many attempts and started to get frustrated. I figured out the first step to beating the boss for her and gave the DS back, but her frustration with trying to beat that boss just sucked all the enjoyment out of that game for her. Now she put the DS down and probably won't pick the game up again for awhile. (I'm gonna beat the boss for her BTW)
If she could have demo played through the boss, she would probably still be enjoying her game.

If you have a problem with Demo Play, then it obviously wasn't made for you, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't use it or that someone else doesn't need it.

[broodwars]

I sorta agree with Lindy, but I'm not sure games have gotten easier over the years so much as we have just gotten really good at games in general.

We've all developed the hand eye coordination that new gamers have yet to perfect. We've also had so much practice with these games as they have evolved over the years that we understand how most of them work and now it seems almost second nature to know hat it takes to beat most of them.

As I said in my first reply, this is simply Nintendo making gaming more accessible to the NEW gamer while not taking anything away from teh experienced gamer.
I just witnessed this in effect and that feature could have really come in handy.
I just watched a little girl enjoying the hell out of Super Princess Peach until she got to some boss. She couldn't beat the boss after many attempts and started to get frustrated. I figured out the first step to beating the boss for her and gave the DS back, but her frustration with trying to beat that boss just sucked all the enjoyment out of that game for her. Now she put the DS down and probably won't pick the game up again for awhile. (I'm gonna beat the boss for her BTW)
If she could have demo played through the boss, she would probably still be enjoying her game.

If you have a problem with Demo Play, then it obviously wasn't made for you, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't use it or that someone else doesn't need it.

I understand where you're coming from, but are you really doing that girl any favors?  For the most part, bosses are supposed to be a test of the player's skills to see if they're ready to move on to the next set of challenges.  I'm not familiar with SPP so I don't know if the game does build upon itself, but won't she just have even more trouble with the next set of stages/bosses?

Of course, some games just decide to be jerks and put completely unfair boss encounters in for the hell of it, so it could just be one of those.

[that Baby guy]

Exactly, BNM, I love that example.  Perfect.

Wasn't Ikaruga praised for having in-game videos of people playing the game well?  Yeah, in this case, you had to earn them, but no one was at arms about the game showing you a method to play it that would merit many points and few deaths, did they?  It was a selling point, and I believe it was on the box, as well.

A lot of you have selective memories, I'll say.

Edit:  broodwars, if the girl watches what BNM did, and learns from it that way, and possibly even goes back and duplicates the feat, then what has she lost?  Some people aren't good at games.  Some people don't make connections right away.  The key is to teach the play in a convenient, understandable, and patient manner.

Hahaha, this reminds me of the famous Nintendo hotline.  Anyone else remember?  Their claim to fame, while operational, was that they could get you through any part of any Nintendo game, or at least tell you how to get through it.  I had to use them once to find a secret staircase to progress in FFVI, back when I was much younger and new to RPGs.  Anyways, they guaranteed they could help, and if not, they'd find the answer and call you back, toll-free.  The Adventures of Lolo and its two sequels... well, that was a game they got several calls about.  Nintendo's always had a policy to try to help gamers make it through their games.  Now, they've just found a cheap and efficient delivery system for that help.

Have you ever given up on a game for some time because it was too hard?  Maybe you came back to it, but for some time, it was just too much, and too frustrating?

[NWR_insanolord]

I ended up selling Metroid Fusion because I couldn't get past one of the bosses.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I understand where you're coming from, but are you really doing that girl any favors?  For the most part, bosses are supposed to be a test of the player's skills to see if they're ready to move on to the next set of challenges.  I'm not familiar with SPP so I don't know if the game does build upon itself, but won't she just have even more trouble with the next set of stages/bosses?

Of course, some games just decide to be jerks and put completely unfair boss encounters in for the hell of it, so it could just be one of those.

I think I did her a huge favor. She is only 7 afterall. She got over her frustration and I beat the boss for her, and now she is happy again and playing the next level knowing that the boss she had so much trouble on really wasn't all that hard once she knew what to do.

I'll see how effective it was at the next boss.

[KnowsNothing]

Black is creepy because he has not specified what sort of relationship he has with this mysterious "little girl."  I'm a little nervous.

broodwars is an asshole for wanting a seven year old girl to suffer so she can "learn" how to be a "better gamer" or some such nonsense.  Nerd elitism at its finest.

[broodwars]

broodwars is an asshole for wanting a seven year old girl to suffer so she can "learn" how to be a "better gamer" or some such nonsense.  Nerd elitism at its finest.

You know what, buddy?  Go *explitive removed* yourself.  I've learned from experience that if you don't learn the skills yourself, it doesn't do you any good to have someone else do it for you because sooner or later you will have to do it yourself and there's not going to be anyone nearby to hold your hand.  That's what I was getting at, and that applies to any game.  If the girl learned from watching him take on the boss and can apply it to future encounters, good for her and him.  If not, what was really accomplished?  I consider it more cruel to be kind and possibly throw people into situations they just aren't ready for.  Granted, this is Princess Peach we're talking about...

[BlackNMild2k1]

Not that I need to explain myself, but my friend has 2 kids. She has a 3 & 7yr old daughters.
SPP was her 1st grade/summer break present along with a pink DS (both bought by her mom).
I had originally asked for help locating the game for a good price in the Amazing Deals thread in the DS/GBA section.

Now thanks to me "Demo Play"ing the game for her, she is happily playing towards whatever the next boss is, but more importantly, still having fun with her game.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I've learned from experience that if you don't learn the skills yourself, it doesn't do you any good to have someone else do it for you because sooner or later you will have to do it yourself and there's not going to be anyone nearby to hold your hand.  That's what I was getting at, and that applies to any game.  If the girl learned from watching him take on the boss and can apply it to future encounters, good for her and him.  If not, what was really accomplished?  I consider it more cruel to be kind and possibly throw people into situations they just aren't ready for.  Granted, this is Princess Peach we're talking about...

You are acting like we are prepping people for Real World Combat or something. We aren't giving people a pass at the shooting range and letting them skip the boot camp then throwing them in a War situation. This is video games.

Last time I checked Video Games are meant to be FUN. Whether you end up beating it or not, the whole intent is that you had FUN while you were playing the game.

Lots of gamers have made gaming a competitive sport, and others "gamers" mostly collect games and talk about them online but never really play them, but almost all have forgotten that a "GAME" is supposed to be about the "FUN".  You get your fun from the challenge, maybe some people have fun watching others play, and some just like to forget the stress of life by losing themselves in a game just for the fun of it. But the whole point of "Demo Play" is to let those that aren't up to the challenge still have fun with the game.

[broodwars]

I've learned from experience that if you don't learn the skills yourself, it doesn't do you any good to have someone else do it for you because sooner or later you will have to do it yourself and there's not going to be anyone nearby to hold your hand.  That's what I was getting at, and that applies to any game.  If the girl learned from watching him take on the boss and can apply it to future encounters, good for her and him.  If not, what was really accomplished?  I consider it more cruel to be kind and possibly throw people into situations they just aren't ready for.  Granted, this is Princess Peach we're talking about...

You are acting like we are prepping people for Real World Combat or something. We aren't giving people a pass at the shooting range and letting them skip the boot camp then throwing them in a War situation. This is video games.

Last time I checked Video Games are meant to be FUN. Whether you end up beating it or not, the whole intent is that you had FUN while you were playing the game.

Lots of gamers have made gaming a competitive sport, and others "gamers" mostly collect games and talk about them online but never really play them, but almost all have forgotten that a "GAME" is supposed to be about the "FUN".  You get your fun from the challenge, maybe some people have fun watching others play, and some just like to forget the stress of life by losing themselves in a game just for the fun of it. But the whole point of "Demo Play" is to let those that aren't up to the challenge still have fun with the game.

We're actually talking along the same lines here.  You said she stopped having fun because she got stuck on a boss she couldn't beat, right?  Ergo, the best way to keep having fun is to not get stuck, ergo getting better at gaming in general and hope common sense in game design suddenly hits the game designers.

Like I said, if what you did works and she's having fun and gets through the game just fine than more power to you both.  I'm just looking ahead a few moves to the next time people get stuck.

[that Baby guy]

So you're saying that if she learned how to play the game from watching someone play it, that's a good method to learn how to play the game, but it's not your method of choice, right?

That statement is just a rephrasing of your second paragraph, isn't it?

[broodwars]

So you're saying that if she learned how to play the game from watching someone play it, that's a good method to learn how to play the game, but it's not your method of choice, right?

That statement is just a rephrasing of your second paragraph, isn't it?

If it works for them, then I suppose it's a good method for them to learn how to play.  I've tried teaching people in the past how to do things in particular games (most notably trying to teach my best friend how not to suck at FPS games in Bioshock) and I haven't found it particularly effective till he'd screwed up a few (dozen) times and learned it the hard way.  Most of what we call "gaming skills" just boils down to simple pattern recognition from a library of common patterns most games within genres use.  We've experienced a pattern before and we know how to deal with it, so when we see it again later on with whatever permutations we know how to deal with it.  But most times I've seen a person doesn't actually get a pattern till they've done it successfully themselves.  Seeing someone do it does not mean you can then do it yourself in every situation.

[that Baby guy]

Then why are you so against this?  Essentially you're saying it's good if it works, it's as-of-yet untested in the wide-spread market, and you're quite comfortable to ignore it, blissfully.

Why not let it exist, and see what becomes of it before you go on a crusade against it.  It's true, it isn't an instant way to increase skills in gaming, but we all know that part of the problem isn't always direct skill, but rather clues that hint at something.  Some people notice some, some don't, but as BNM said, the girl, a part of Demo-play's target audience, just needed to be shown the trick to the boss, she, herself, seemed to learn how to execute it, beyond that.  Perhaps the clue was written, and she was just a little too young to comprehend it, even.  Regardless, there's nothing wrong with trying, after all, the method you are so steadfastly encouraging is trial-and-error, isn't it?  Let Nintendo give that one a shot in game help

[broodwars]

Then why are you so against this?  Essentially you're saying it's good if it works, it's as-of-yet untested in the wide-spread market, and you're quite comfortable to ignore it, blissfully.

Why not let it exist, and see what becomes of it before you go on a crusade against it.  It's true, it isn't an instant way to increase skills in gaming, but we all know that part of the problem isn't always direct skill, but rather clues that hint at something.  Some people notice some, some don't, but as BNM said, the girl, a part of Demo-play's target audience, just needed to be shown the trick to the boss, she, herself, seemed to learn how to execute it, beyond that.  Perhaps the clue was written, and she was just a little too young to comprehend it, even.  Regardless, there's nothing wrong with trying, after all, the method you are so steadfastly encouraging is trial-and-error, isn't it?  Let Nintendo give that one a shot in game help

My problem with the feature isn't so much the feature itself, but that it's part of a continuing slippery slope of gaming leading inexerably towards a point where from the moment you start a game all you have to do is hit a big ol' "win" button and the game is over.  Game designers don't have to try and create an environment that is well-designed and stimulates improvement and learning, because when all else fails you have the "win" button.  Gamers don't have to reason to learn and improve, because when anything comes along that challenges them to stretch their boundaries there's the "win" button.

If this feature promotes positive gains in learning in gaming I'm all for it.  I'm just wary of its mis-use, since it's so easy to abuse.

[Nick DiMola]

Why are you so caught up in other people's experiences? If someone else finds it fun to hit the "win" button to succeed shouldn't that be ok? And if you decide that you never, ever, ever would, isn't that ok too?

It just seems like you are projecting your ideals on other people. Just because you have fun one way doesn't mean others do as well. There is no slippery slope, because this is OPTIONAL.