Topic: The bookies in.

[Stogi]

It's finally over. The same old argument; the same old gripe; that cancer can finally be laid to rest. The Wii has mature games coming; a lot of them. This year alone, they've announced or released more than you can count on your hands.

So now what?

A change of heart by the media? Ha, yeah right. Well at least not before confirmation that these games are actually good. But what if they are? Well then it's time to get out the ruler and compare them to similar games on other systems, trivially, in pursuit of an irrelevant conclusion.

Still, while the comparison might be irrelevant, it sure is interesting to think about. The Wii has proven itself to be more intuitive in most categories, but the jury is still out on mature games. But what if M+ really is the future? What if it makes mature games more visceral, more complete?  Will people finally not care so much about the HD revolution? Will third parties do the same?

It's anyone's bet.

It's going to be an interesting next couple of years and it all starts next week.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

These first 3 years were pretty interesting, I'd say.

[ShyGuy]

Kiddie? Ports? Waggle? Casual?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

SALES CHARTS.

[Nick DiMola]

The Wii has been pretty damn solid up to this point. If the entire gaming media was capable of ignoring every single awesome game that came out on the Wii up till now, why would anyone think things will change?

The 360 and PS3 could get ports of Wii specific games from now until the end of the generation and the gaming media would still **** on the Wii library. They are whiny babies incapable of being satisfied over anything.

[Deguello]

It is very interesting to look back at the media's perception of Nintendo right up until Brain Age was released.  It was kiddy this, childish that, no matter what games came out when.  Didn't matter how much blood was spilled, how many swear words, how much sex.  Kiddy kiddy kiddy.

Then Brain Age came out, an E rated game, and got very popular with men, older men, women, and older women.  Record-breakingly popular.  So now the "kiddy brigade" had a problem.  How can you even say DS is "kiddy" when there are repeating images of 35-year-old men and women playing it.  It just doesn't stick.  It got worse when Wii Sports came out and seniors, older men, and basically everybody was playing this game.  Even on day 1, Wii is popular with adults.  What to do?

So they decided to rest on "casual" and now define "gamer" as this ever shrinking demographic window of a male 15-27.  This is a fine time to bring up an old Cartoon Network show called Codename: Kids Next Door (I believe I have reviewed one of the licensed games on the site.)  In it, a group of children fight against "adult tyranny" and their useful lackeys the "teenagers," the bourgeoisie managers of this whole growing up biz.  That's not important but what is important is how one of these agents of the Kids Next Door gets decommissioned.  The second they turn 13 they get their brains scrambled and they basically "go back to being normal."  This is usually a tearful event as they lose good agents, but it's all for the cause and all that.

This is similar to the attitude most of these games press sites take, that older than a certain age makes you somehow a non-gamer no matter what your favorites are, simply because of the newfound popularity in games for 28-40 age groups and 41-65 age groups.  You get drummed out of the corps, so to speak.

We never talked about demographics before this generation.  The only one we even recognized was "kiddy," which was humorously stuck onto some of the best games of all time like Mario 64 and Zelda: OOT, and done so by charlatans on this "internet" that was all the rage.  Everybody who played games was a gamer, period.  Now it's all different and much the worse for it.  We have these amorphous labels "casual" and "hardcore."  They now let marketing intercede with development and have games "aimed at demographics" which usually fail.  And we are now all at each other's throats over how "hardcore" somebody can be and this is achieved somehow by buying the most expensive things, which would probably make game companies happy if they weren't all drowning in red ink.  All because of a pointless label put on the market leading consoles (DS and Wii) by forum fanboys and bitterly disappointed games press editors.

[KDR_11k]

I've given up on expecting usefulness from all that hardcore-casual talk, the 360 is supposedly the sanctuary of the hardcore but I can't find games for it while I've got tons for the Wii.

[Ian Sane]

I've always seen Nintendo as the bullied kid that brings it on himself.  You know on the Simpsons how Martin is bullied but he's such a pathetic wuss that it's actually funny?  It's like that.

Nintendo is the company that had a perfectly family friendly character in Mario and then for some reason decided to give him a voice that made him sound like the host of a TV show for pre-schoolers.  When I load up Super Mario Galaxy there's that pathetically wimpy voice speaking the title.  This game is awesome but, ****, it's like I have to deal with this stupid pre-school **** to get to the sweet sweet gameplay inside.  There is no reason that Mario has to be THAT wimpy and THAT patronizing.

Nintendo is also the company that was being accused of being kiddy and then decided to take Zelda, one of their only franchises that their bullies thought was cool, and turned it into a cartoon.  They bring that image on themselves.

I agree that things have changed to more a casual image than a kiddy image.  But I think the real thing is Nintendo has a wimpy image.  If it isn't a cutesy game it's a "game" about walking or exercising.  Compare Wii Music to Guitar Hero.  Electric guitars are cool.  Rock music is a cool.  Nintendo's music game has you playing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.  That's wimpy as hell.

It isn't just about how many mature games are on the Nintendo system.  It's all about Nintendo themselves and the image they project.  They more than anyone create the image of their console.  And for them games like Fire Emblem or Metroid Prime are the exceptions.  The wimpy games are more expected so that image paints the entire console, regardless of what third parties do.  And third parties usually follow Nintendo's lead anyway.  Mature games and core games may exist for the Wii but when I go to the store the vast majority of Wii games on the shelf and non-gamer focused shovelware TRASH.  The image doesn't change because of a few exceptions.

I think the casual vs. hardcore thing is a bit different though.  It seems with that Nintendo stepped over a line where the content of their games is compromised by wimpiness.  In the past it was like Mario looked kiddy but had awesome gameplay while with non-games the gameplay is affected as well.  Wii Music doesn't just look wimpy it PLAYS wimpy as well.  That's why you see former hardcore Nintendo nuts that used to defend the kiddy image crappying on non-games.  The defense was that Nintendo never made truly kiddy games but with non-games, now you can say they ARE.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

So what you're saying is, without Nintendo to rescue the industry, these noncasual Nintendo nuts are simply loud people in a dying industry.

[EasyCure]

BRAVO BRAVO

That is by far THE best example of fanboys and their E-penises.

You mention the SWEET SWEET GAMEPLAY of SMG yet you're borderline offended about the stupid voiceover, huh? Thats pretty pathetic. You say rock music is "cool" too.. and most of the regulars here know you yourself play guitar and are in a band. Did you do it because it was "cool" Ian or because you actually like the music you're emulating?

If you as a 30something year old adult who 'still' plays videogames can't look passed something as stupid as a high pitched cartoony character, maybe its time you just STOP playing video games all together?

[NWR_insanolord]

I don't want Nintendo to care about what is cool.

[Ian Sane]

most of the regulars here know you yourself play guitar and are in a band. Did you do it because it was "cool" Ian or because you actually like the music you're emulating?

No, I actually like it.  I'm just pointing out that rock music is popular and considered cool by most people of all ages while a lot of the public domain music in Wii Music is not.

If you as a 30something year old adult who 'still' plays videogames can't look passed something as stupid as a high pitched cartoony character, maybe its time you just STOP playing video games all together?

Well I'm not in my 30's yet.   I CAN look past a stupid voice because the game is awesome.  But why should I have to?  Why does Nintendo has to take a game that is already family friendly and make the presentation THAT much more patronizing?  They don't have to but they do and that's why they have the image they do.

I find Nintendo very patronizing with their overly cutesy presentations and them telling me I need friend codes and that the controller is just too damn confusing and their non-games being made SOLELY for non-gamers when they could just make a great game and have beginner modes for non-gamers (like Guitar Hero: World Tour).  Stop treating everyone like a fucking idiot for a change and then maybe you won't have these image problems.

I don't want Nintendo to care about what is cool.

I don't really either.  But not trying to be cool and being excessively lame is not the same thing.

[Dirk Temporo]

I wouldn't call a single developer releasing three games, a five-hour beat 'em up, and a new incarnation of Silent Hill "finally getting mature games."

It's going to take a lot more games and a lot more time to repair that image.

[vudu]

The Wii has mature games coming; a lot of them. This year alone, they've announced or released more than you can count on your hands.

Keep in mind that most of these games aren't on sale yet and the few "mature" games that are available have decent-to-good sales at best (especially if they're not part of an established franchise).

The dead-horse beating will continue until something as thoroughly mediocre as Army of Two can sell two million copies on Wii.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The only way for Wii to appear mature is for Nintendo to stop releasing its own software completely.

rather, if Nintendo never released its software at all, letting Red Steel dictate the theme of future game developments.

[Stogi]

I wouldn't call a single developer releasing three games, a five-hour beat 'em up, and a new incarnation of Silent Hill "finally getting mature games."

It's going to take a lot more games and a lot more time to repair that image.

There's:

RE:DC
RedSteel 2
Cursed Mountain
Dead Space
Overlord

Not to mention a nice selection of 'core' titles such as Monster Hunter 3 and FF:CB.

[Ian Sane]

How are spinoffs like RE:DC, Dead Space and Overlord going to change the image of the Wii?  That's the same thing the Wii has always had.  Getting spinoffs instead of the main entries  is part of the Wii's negative image in the first place.  Might as well have used Billy Hatcher to depend the Cube's kiddy image.

[Stogi]

I think you should read something.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/986/986199p1.html

[vudu]

I think you should read something.

An ad for Comcast?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

How are spinoffs like RE:DC, Dead Space and Overlord going to change the image of the Wii?  That's the same thing the Wii has always had.  Getting spinoffs instead of the main entries  is part of the Wii's negative image in the first place.  Might as well have used Billy Hatcher to depend the Cube's kiddy image.

This is an accurate assessment.

Changing the image of Wii will end up not being a matter of changing the minds of existing opinion sharers, it would have to be thru nurturing a new appreciative audience that forces the previous opinionated one out of relevance.

[Ian Sane]

Dead Space Extraction could be the greatest on-rails shooter spin-off of an FPS game every made BUT it's still an on-rails shooter spin-off of an FPS game that is NOT on the Wii and is getting a sequel on the other consoles but NOT the Wii.  It fits the stereotype so well that describing it sounds like a parody.

It still suggests that the Wii just can't handle with the big boys and thus has to get it's own spin-off built "ground up for the Wii" (and in the cliche on-rails shooter genre as well).  Dead Space II as an exclusive or as a multiplatform release would help the Wii's image.  This is nothing.  It's a product no one asked for being made just to get some sort of Wii product on the shelf.  Whether or not it's actually good is secondary - it's still a perfect example of third parties treating the market-leading Wii as an afterthought.

In other words "LOL CASUALENDO!!111"

[Stogi]

Spin-off or not; if you played the game intrinsically and loved it, what is the difference? A game is a game is a game.

[Ian Sane]

Spin-off or not; if you played the game intrinsically and loved it, what is the difference? A game is a game is a game.

Well you could say the same thing with "kiddy games".  We're talking about Nintendo's image here and I don't think any spin-off will help the Wii's image at all.

[BlackNMild2k1]

But FPS are meant to be played on the P..... layers Choice of gaming platform.

Besides I can already see a late port of Dead Space being made(already being ported?) if Extraction does well, and maybe DS2 get put on the Wii too.

I really  don't think it makes sense to put a prequel on one system and then not put the original and the sequel on it too. Especially since the stories are a continuation of each other and not a separate side spin-off adventure.

[Stogi]

Spin-off or not; if you played the game intrinsically and loved it, what is the difference? A game is a game is a game.

Well you could say the same thing with "kiddy games".  We're talking about Nintendo's image here and I don't think any spin-off will help the Wii's image at all.

What about Nintendo's image? I thought we were talking about quality mature titles?

I don't care if Nintendo's image made sex-crazy pedophiles flock to their system; if the games are fun, what is the difference? Your talking about image and the need to be cool, but I don't think you're cool enough to shed the superficial and do what you actually enjoy.