Author Topic: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea  (Read 10288 times)

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 12:31:50 PM »
That could be the difference between the single player Action strategy mode & the more arcadey multi-player mode

Offline EasyCure

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2009, 12:55:40 PM »
i feel like i should emphasize part of my first post, these focus events slow the action down, yes, but don't freeze everything entirely like Red Steel did. If you focus and your enemy is throwing a punch, he'll still be throwing the punch and you'll see his fist crawl towards you. That way you can still be attacked in focus, depending on your timing, as to not have it be some uber-move that makes you invincible.

Also, i'm sure i mentioned you could only stay in focus a few seconds at a time, so that your actions within focus, have to be made quickly. Picture the super-shots mini game in Mario Strikers charged, from the goalies perspective. Not counting the "3,2,1" countdown, you only have a few seconds to block up to 5 incoming balls, but in a panic it feels like you have less time. In the focus event you have something like 5 seconds to react, which seems like not enough time but without the panic of not knowing where you have to point on screen (like in strikers) its PLENTY of time to input your commands.

With such a small window, i don't see it breaking the action all that much, especially since once the moves over you'll revert back to realtime (not a cutscene that shows your moves act out) and if your focus combo gets interupted, its back to realtime brawling.
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
EASYCURE: I remember thinking(don't ask me why) this was a blond haired, blue eyed, chiseled athlete. Like he looked like Seigfried before he became Nightmare.

Offline MoronSonOfBoron

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2009, 03:25:47 PM »
So here we have another issue: if the cool factor introduced by Focus is so great, why are we limiting its usage? Rather, what reason does the player have to use basic fighting techniques aside from building Focus?

Thing is, for most beat-em-ups, the combos and finishers are "payoff" for responsible "button-mashing", and are in fact extensions of that gameplay. What I want to know is how the Focus combat will parallel the non-Focus combat, because having Focus as the climax to basic mashing is certainly doable (it's been done to an extent), but I feel the ultimate goal would be to have seamless, streaming combat. Can we extend the involvement and freedom presented in Focus into the normal gameplay?

Probably not. As mentioned much earlier in the thread, there's a very low limit to how much waggling one should do, and the Wii-chuk setup is not optimal for the complex button combinations required by the complex fighting system we are imagining here.

I think this would be a good place to use the pointer system previously proposed, actually. Rather than being the mechanic for selecting Focus targets, the pointer can be used for the run-of-the-mill mass combat. I think the primary issues in beat-em-ups, especially one like this, are precise and reliable targeting methods. Assuming a sensibly designed field of vision and number of enemies, the pointer would make a great way to quickly select individual enemies off the screen without:
  • fumbling through an invisible queue of targets
  • accidentally losing sight of your other target
  • muddling use of the control stick with both movement and gestural input
Imagine a scenario where the player is faced with several enemies. In the midst of attacking one enemy, the player wants to switch to another target. Rather than pushing and shoving the control stick or some fickle targeting reticule, he can simply move his pointer to the desired target and immediately begin attacking. This all happens in real time, outside of Focus.

The best part about such an immediacy is that it deals away with my biggest gripe about beat-em-ups: the mooks in the background, the guys who walk around looking stupid while waiting for "their turn". It's a staple of old action movies when fight choreography and cinematography weren't as advanced; it irks me to see this come up in modern video games. It's so prevalent, in fact, that you can do some more-or-less formal research on it. The main reason beat-em-up games have this setup is because of limited player awareness; I contend that it is not the player's awareness that is limited, it is game design that is unable to account for a human's full scope of awareness and cunning.

With that said, how does non-Focus combat do this with the pointer? As I said, it removes a player's concern about the control scheme, letting them freely select targets as they come into sight. In fact, this pointer-based scheme could deal away with manual movement altogether: given good pathfinding algorithms, a player could chart his path around a group of enemies by point-click-attacking a series of different enemies, bouncing around a mob with intelligent ferocity, rather than leaning in some direction and praying it works. The speed and precision of the pointer allows a player to quickly react to counterattacks, sneak attacks, and opportunities without having to go into Focus mode, which is tailored for more specific situations such as when dealing with a single, constant target or enemy.

Imagine this: the player has five enemies to deal with, A, B, C, D, and E. The Player decides to kill E first, who is covered by the others. Player lays into A, but is approached from behind with a sneak attack by B. A quick point and click, while A is still reeling, sends out a backhand to B. The player decides to leave A alone, because his real target is E, and he wants to get there. In a split-second, the player can point and click to C and D to incapacitate them or push them aside, and finally click on E. The player establishes contact with E, initiates Focus, and before A or B can get back up, E's cervical vertebrae are beyond a chiropractor's help.

From start to finish, there is only attack, attack, attack, never an awkward moment where the player pauses to look around to see who's coming, or to realign their character's facing direction.

A number of martial arts emphasize awareness: at any given moment, an attack can come from any direction, and a fighter is prepared to move, block or counter appropriately. Fighting is a multifaceted affair that goes in all directions, and I think a game about fighting should reflect this.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2009, 04:34:03 PM »
I think the main thing you are forgetting is that while you do want a certain bit of realism and complexity, you also want to keep the game mechanics rather simple and accessible to even the beginning player. And while I want to be able to do alot of stuff at once I still want the game to be FUN and not a frustrating mess of complex controls and actions.

You have to keep the game playable and more importantly ...FUN. without those two things, you are just getting into some sort of movie fantasy fighting scene simulator.

I think you have good ideas, but they are just a little too advanced to work in a game that is meant to be playable by all level of gamers, beginner to advanced.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 08:12:34 PM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline EasyCure

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2009, 06:49:58 PM »
Who is MoronSonOfBoron?

I feel like he's some dev trying to steal my idea >:[
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
EASYCURE: I remember thinking(don't ask me why) this was a blond haired, blue eyed, chiseled athlete. Like he looked like Seigfried before he became Nightmare.

Offline UltimatePartyBear

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2009, 07:09:38 PM »
He's just proving he's Kairon's brother.  In a good way!

Offline EasyCure

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2009, 07:14:34 PM »
He's just proving he's Kairon's brother.  In a good way!

Does he /cry?
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
EASYCURE: I remember thinking(don't ask me why) this was a blond haired, blue eyed, chiseled athlete. Like he looked like Seigfried before he became Nightmare.

Offline MoronSonOfBoron

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2009, 09:18:41 PM »
Manly tears.

RE: BlackNMild2k1
Given what I outlined in my last post, I have a hard time understanding your reasoning. I proposed pointer functionality over button-mashing in non-Focus combat because it requires less fingerwork; the original ideas put forth by EasyCure make extensive use of pointer functionality to make complex action sequences in-Focus possible, due to its precision and ease of use. I'd like to take that a step further and let the player use more of their attention towards intelligent use of the pointer in all parts of the game.

To reiterate my last post: it's find and dandy that we have a cool new QTE system, but what does this do for the regular game when you're out of Focus? Do you really want to deal with mashing the control stick and buttons while waiting for deliciously intense point-click Focus to come around? Or should fighting between Focus sequences be just as enjoyable and tactical, even parallel that system such that you are primed and ready to take it on when you have to?
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2009, 10:09:18 PM »
I had to go back and re-read your post, but lets start here.
Quote
Imagine a scenario where the player is faced with several enemies. In the midst of attacking one enemy, the player wants to switch to another target. Rather than pushing and shoving the control stick or some fickle targeting reticule, he can simply move his pointer to the desired target and immediately begin attacking. This all happens in real time, outside of Focus.
Why wouldn't you just keep it simple and push the joystick in the direction you want to attack?
especially if you are doing a bunch of gestural attacks like you previously suggested?

Quote
In fact, this pointer-based scheme could deal away with manual movement altogether: given good pathfinding algorithms, a player could chart his path around a group of enemies by point-click-attacking a series of different enemies, bouncing around a mob with intelligent ferocity, rather than leaning in some direction and praying it works.
Sounds like you are turning it into a point & click brawler. I'm not sure thats exactly what EasyCure had in mind. That sounds more like a RTS than a heart pounding Brawler/Strategic Fighter

Quote
Imagine this: the player has five enemies to deal with, A, B, C, D, and E. The Player decides to kill E first, who is covered by the others. Player lays into A, but is approached from behind with a sneak attack by B. A quick point and click, while A is still reeling, sends out a backhand to B. The player decides to leave A alone, because his real target is E, and he wants to get there. In a split-second, the player can point and click to C and D to incapacitate them or push them aside, and finally click on E. The player establishes contact with E, initiates Focus, and before A or B can get back up, E's cervical vertebrae are beyond a chiropractor's help.

From start to finish, there is only attack, attack, attack, never an awkward moment where the player pauses to look around to see who's coming, or to realign their character's facing direction.
All of that sounds like an interactive point n click movie. But its all kinda hard to imagine without some sort of visual example to exactly how it would work.

I think between the button & gestural combat moves when out of focus to the pointer centered location based attack while in focus, this gameplay idea doesn't need to try to be overly simplistic(un-motivated) or overly complex(frustrating). What I think we were aiming for was to use all the features of the Wiimote nunchuck combo in a way that won't distract from gameplay(keeping it a brawler) and can only be done on the Wii.

As I said before, you have good ideas, but they just don't fit into the game that EasyCure described as I envision it. Some may agree, some may not and the rest probably don't care, but thats just the way I see it.

Offline MoronSonOfBoron

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2009, 01:28:44 AM »
6. Waggle sucks.
This was my general driving principle in thinking pointer-based melee combat would be a better alternative. If we reserve pointer functionality for Focus, that leaves us with waggle and button-mashing for input in non-Focus situations; respectively, these are tiring and tired mechanisms. In my mind, Focus should not be the focus of the game at the expense of other parts, unless you want the player to spend more time in Focus than out, which was already established earlier as not a good idea. Focus is meant to be a rewarding and enriching experience, a climax that you build towards and even anticipate or formulate strategies around; if it's too common or pervasive, it could become obtrusive to the flow of the game.

I sense you believe that gestures/waggle should not exist outside of the Focus system. I agree with this philosophy, and it is part of why I believe using them in the Focus system would be a wise choice. The Wiimote's swing is a double-edged sword: we must use it, but not too much. It goes without saying that a Wii-exclusive game like the one we're envisioning here will have to use it, and responsibly; it has definite merits in the immersive and emotional payoffs such as those produced in NMH's wrestling moves. On the other hand, we don't want to end up with a "shake like a madman" scenario like the one described by pap64 (or the horrendously confusing and unresponsive setup that was Marvel: Ultimate Alliance).

Focus provides an ideal environment for using waggle: it has a small set of clear and distinct actions that can be mapped to simple executions; it does not take up most of the player's time; it is designed to provide the feeling of immersion and intuition. These are all factors that play to waggle's good side.

On the other hand, I feel that EasyCure's initial idea of using the pointer as part of a brawling game a fascinating idea, particularly because of the freedom, precision, and speed it affords. After suggesting replacing pointer-based Focus with waggle Focus, I felt kind of bad about leaving out the original innovation that sparked this thread and decided I should do something with it.

In any case, when I return, I will try further comparing and combining my ideas with the ones that came before them.

As a parting note, the action sequence I described would probably take place within the span of 5 seconds. (I need to acquire and learn Flash so I can prototype things...)
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Offline Kairon

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2009, 02:25:06 AM »
My brother's so awesome. ^_^
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Offline Stogi

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2009, 09:50:41 AM »
no one read my idea and yet this SOB with his massive posts gets read everytime.

And Kryon....you don't read like brothers...is this a hoax?
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: My New(ish) Wii Gameplay Idea
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2009, 09:23:36 AM »
no one read my idea and yet this SOB with his massive posts gets read everytime.

And Kryon....you don't read like brothers...is this a hoax?

i keep meaning to read your post but forget to. The time it took me to find this thread and post this lil reply coulda been spent reading your post though...

weird huh?
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
EASYCURE: I remember thinking(don't ask me why) this was a blond haired, blue eyed, chiseled athlete. Like he looked like Seigfried before he became Nightmare.