Author Topic: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance  (Read 11327 times)

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Offline Kairon

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Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« on: January 21, 2009, 10:57:32 PM »
The survival horror exclusive remained grounded because of publishers who "don't want to stick their necks out" and "[are] still trying to figure out the Wii" two years after the console's release.
 http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/newsArt.cfm?artid=17574

 For more than a year, IGN has been hinting at the existence of a "dark" and "mature" game for the Wii and its failure to procure a publisher to bring it to fruition. That game has finally been revealed as Winter, a survival horror project that developer n-Space has been shopping around since GDC 2007.    


Winter is, or was, a demo that n-Space created in six weeks with no more than 12 people working on it at its peak. Best known for their Nintendo-funded GameCube paranormal shooter Geist, n-Space had taken their experience and used it "take the [Survival Horror] genre back to basics" on Nintendo's newest home console.    


According to Creative Director Ted Newman, Winter started with "the setup of a single character alone in extreme circumstances, struggling to stay alive and adding another layer of survival on top." The protagonist, Mia, would be trapped in a Midwestern town during a mysterious blizzard, and the mounting cold would be "as big an enemy as anything in the game." Initially this would mean finding ways to stay warm like "using the Wii controller to spark a fire and light some oily rags," but eventually the developers imagined that the environments would be "transformed by snow and ice" and that players would be forced "to climb through second story windows or walk on rooftops." N-Space even brainstormed ways to make the Wii Remote and Nunchuk "extensions of the player's hands." For example, a flickering flashlight would require players "to tap the Wii Remote against their hands until it starts working properly," or they could cautiously open doors slowly with the motion recognition technology "to peek inside first."    


Unfortunately, the project has gone nowhere since 2007. Speaking with IGN, n-Space President Dan O'Leary said that Winter was pitched "tirelessly for months," and the early responses were "universally positive." But every time things got moving n-Space would hit a brick wall. "In almost every case we got hung up with the sales and marketing groups," explained O'Leary, "the idea of an 'adult' game on what they perceived to be a 'kids' console was simply too big a leap for them, regardless of the enthusiastic support of the PD department and the Wii's total domination in the marketplace."    


Further elaborating on the difficulties of "pitching anything that isn't a kid's game for the Wii," O'Leary claimed that "publishers are missing a lot of opportunities on the Wii." Despite the excitement over the project, it seems that the factors working against Winter were related to publishers being afraid to leave their comfort zones. "They can't apply their standard approaches to this platform," explained O'Leary, adding that publishers "don't want to stick their necks out with a sales projection when they aren't able to cite comparable products." O'Leary said that publishers would dismiss the proven success of Wii horror games like Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition and Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles, but argued that "you can only make [Resident Evil 4] if you have the courage to try [Resident Evil 1]."    


Of course, the woes of bringing ambitious projects to Nintendo's market-leading platform are a topic of much discussion, but O'Leary's statements highlight something particular. His comments point to a tragic inequality between developers and publishers when it comes to the Wii.    


In one part of the interview, O'Leary talked of the Wii's penchant for innovation and boasted that "n-Space understood this from day one." Just a paragraph earlier, O'Leary was lamenting that "publishers still say to us on a regular basis, 'we're still trying to figure out the Wii.'"    


It's this frustrating dichotomy between developers who embrace the Wii's promise and publishers who shun its uniqueness that is holding Winter back, and keeping Wii gamers in the cold.    


For more on the story behind Winter, check out IGN's full interview.

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Offline Smash_Brother

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 12:15:36 AM »
...Hence why I stand by my stance that publishers are, in fact, the fucking devil.

I've been fortunate enough to witness a project before and after a publisher dropped the hammer and it was startling. What was previously an amazing game was reduced to a shadow of its former self.
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Offline AV

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 12:17:54 AM »
somehow porting a PS2 game onto Wii with horrible controls and gameplay  is A-OK but new franchise with great ideas and innovative controls is crazy.

Wii is more than controller waggle, its about opening your mind to what a videogame CAN BE.

people hate on Carnival games, but you got to give them credit for seeing a market that nobody saw before. Yeah minigames are not new, but I much rather pay $50 to buy this game than $50 to go to six Flags for ONE DAY.

You can't be scared of making new franchises and putting odd games on the market.

I never would have guessed WiiSports would be so popular. Or Guitar Hero, or Brain Age even. People who made those games were totally unsure if anybody would care. I bet Nintendo was scared to death if Wii failed it would be the end of the company. Music games were NEVER in the mainstream before Guitar Hero it was only a niche crowd. Brain Teasers have always been fun but who would guessed a game where you do math problems and scream yellow, could be so big.

Without context a videgame about a new york plumber who eats mushrooms and squashes turtles seems insane. However that game saved an entire market of videogames.

You got to take risks and make games for the LOVE OF THE ART FORM. Stop fearing failure, nobody knows what will be the biggest hit or flop in the real world. I understand making videogames cost millions of dollars but if stagnation is allowed in the videogame market it will eventually kill the market.

Offline RABicle

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 01:39:46 AM »
Publishers are going under BECAUSE they're not taking risks. **** those guys. Why doesn't Nintendo step up and get behind this n-Space effort. Geist wasn't perfect but it was still a solid game and Nintendo should support them again.
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Offline TheYoungerPlumber

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 01:49:26 AM »
TYP no like. Bad medicine. Are publishers that oblivious to how a huge portion of Wii's markeplace success comes from ADULTS buying the system for themselves?! This is group think at its worst, folks.

While it's nice to say "Nintendo should step up, blah blah blah", Ninty shouldn't have to be the one to come and save the day. They may have mutually determined that the two companies and their corporate cultures don't mesh well. There are tons of other publishers out there.

I'd also like to remind everyone that most of what we're hearing about the game comes from its developer, so of course it's going to cast this game demo in a very positive light. Some publishers may have had some legitimate concerns from a game quality perspective. That said, this story has a ring of truth to it.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 02:47:42 AM »
This is a story where I don't doubt the developer's version of it. This seemed to way too common when Wi first released or shortly after where no developer was willing to invest funds in a more core game, heck even the games they did make were low budget.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 06:19:30 AM »
Publishers are going under BECAUSE they're not taking risks. **** those guys. Why doesn't Nintendo step up and get behind this n-Space effort. Geist wasn't perfect but it was still a solid game and Nintendo should support them again.

Nonsense. Publishers are going under because they're taking risks they fail to perceive as such. In reality there is no such thing as guaranteed success but there are different probabilities of success. Making a big budget game on the HD consoles isn't a safe bet and even with a high probability of success (which it doesn't seem to have) the gain is fairly low (revenue divided by investment). You bet right, you get a bit of money, you bet wrong, you lose it all. The odds at this table suck but it's the table they've always played at (and it has hookers and blow!) so they keep playing. There are other tables with better odds but they don't know them and think changing is a risk when the real risk is the odds on the table they're sitting on, no matter what table that is.

Offline UncleBob

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 09:36:49 AM »
Perhaps Take2 can come in and get this game published so there isn't so much shovelware on the Wii...
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Offline Pale

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 09:50:17 AM »
As much as we want to blame other publishers for this, I blame Nintendo really.  Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, publishers are both scared of and look up to Nintendo (as a publisher).  They constantly have the stress of having to compete with Nintendo's first party offerings.

While it's easy for us to say that they should do that by thinking outside the box and doing something DIFFERENT from what Nintendo is doing... Most marketing people will take Nintendo's sales as a sign of the industry and look to emulate their products.

Nintendo needs to recognize this and start publishing some games with more mature themes if they want something to change on their platform.  Honestly, why the hell AREN'T Nintendo picking winter up?  They've worked witn N-Space before. Apparently their demo uses the Wii functionality well. There's no reason for them not to.

The same can be said for the Conduit too.  Why did that languish for so long publisherless.  It took Sega to get that game moving.

I just really don't understand this aspect of Nintendo.  They are making money like crazy right now, receiving complaints from their hardcore fans over lack of first party published games, yet they won't throw any of these small publishers a bone.

I'd love for someone to present a possible reason for this that doesn't center around greed and the blatant ignoring of their past fans.

I'm not one to bash Nintendo, but I just feel like the solution to this problem with Winter is SIMPLE.


The only other reason I can think of that wouldn't be Nintendo's fault is if N-Space is on crack in this interview and all the publishers just hated the gameplay.
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 10:40:26 AM »
Quote
As much as we want to blame other publishers for this, I blame Nintendo really.  Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, publishers are both scared of and look up to Nintendo (as a publisher).  They constantly have the stress of having to compete with Nintendo's first party offerings.

While it's easy for us to say that they should do that by thinking outside the box and doing something DIFFERENT from what Nintendo is doing... Most marketing people will take Nintendo's sales as a sign of the industry and look to emulate their products.

Nintendo needs to recognize this and start publishing some games with more mature themes if they want something to change on their platform.  Honestly, why the hell AREN'T Nintendo picking winter up?  They've worked witn N-Space before. Apparently their demo uses the Wii functionality well. There's no reason for them not to.

1. While I agree that having to compete with Nintendo's first party offerings, that doesn't make sense when the game you're trying to sell is one Nintendo DOESN'T make. Unless you're dumb enough to release a (well polished and well marketed) product the same day or near the release of something like Twilight Princess/Mario Galaxy/Wii Fit etc, there's no reason 3rd parties can't make money selling Wii games. Look at Capcom and its sales of RE4:WE and RE:UC. Nintendo doesn't have any of its own survival horror or on-rail, and dont forget M-rated, games of their own to compete with so this theory is BS in my book.

2. Again, I agree with you to a point but its just ignorant for any publisher to look at soley Nintendo when deciding what kind of products they want to push on Wii. Again, look at Capcom or any other 3rd party that found success with titles in genres or themes that Nintendo don't create... Anyone with half a brain would at least take into consideration that there IS a fanbase out there that will buy games that aren't mini game compilations or "casual" oriented. Basically, if you don't bet on yourself to beat Lance Armstrong at a bike race.

3. Sure Nintendo could pick Winter up, and in a dream world they would so we wouldn't have to have discussions like this. But maybe Nintendo doesn't make such games because its not their style. Maybe Nintendo just can't produce these types of games themselves because its not the type of mindset they have over there. Nintendo has always been about games for everyone, even before Brain Age and Nintendogs. Anyone remember that story about Miyamoto not understanding why a dev (Retro?) would wan't to put a gun atop a car? It's just not what their lead teams do. Sure they can eat up N-space or any other small devs out there that do these kind of games, but Nintendo puts their touches on everything and in this case, some of those changes might water down what makes a title like Winter what it is. In the end, it's best Nintendo not publish it, don't ya think?
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Offline D_Average

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 11:15:19 AM »
I blame the U.S Education system for this.
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Offline Pale

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 11:30:55 AM »
I guess it's just the question of whether Nintendo should be judged as an independent publisher or as a platform driver.

As an independent publisher, I can understand if they don't want to pick something up that doesn't fit with their philosophy.  But as a platform driver, it's DUMB for them to not want more variety on their systems.

So yeah.  I definitely think publishers should think outside the box more and ignore Nintendo for the most part, but I just think Nintendo has the power to change the mindset themselves, so I wonder why they aren't.

Maybe Sin & Punishment and Punch Out will help, but in my opinion both of those scream teenager, not adult.  I will thoroughly enjoy both though as an adult, I'm just talking perception here.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 12:13:20 PM »
Nintendo sucks at promoting "matoor" products, especially their own.

3rd parties who do release matoor products, don't bother promoting them.

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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 12:33:05 PM »
Quote
I just really don't understand this aspect of Nintendo.  They are making money like crazy right now, receiving complaints from their hardcore fans over lack of first party published games, yet they won't throw any of these small publishers a bone.

I think you provided the answer yourself with "They are making money like crazy right now".  Nintendo doesn't give a f*ck if this game or any other third party game gets released on the Wii or not.  All they care about is that THEIR games sell and THEIR hardware sells.  They don't need a game like Winter to be on the Wii to continue to make money hand over fist so they're not going to put the effort in.  It's the same thing with third party support.

Hell, when has Nintendo EVER really given a sh!t about legitimate complaints from their fanbase?  In the last two generations did they ever really put what you could consider a serious effort to get mature games on their console or improve third party support?  Anything they did always felt like going through the motions to give the appearance of caring or in the Cube's case occasional panic.  It never seemed like any of those issues were a serious concern to them.  All that matters is that they were making a profit, which they were.  Look how they ignored online gaming on the Cube despite protests and have a really lousy online model today which they never acknowledge the complaints of.  Look at their reaction to the storage problem.  It isn't a big concern to them.  They don't care.  They're making big money from rubes that don't complain about the storage issues.

The reason I became a Nintendo fan in the first place is because they made really great games and reliable hardware.  They were never really that great at ensuring their userbase was satisfied with their console.  I found that out pretty quickly once their third party dictatorship crumbled.  They never had to change that to get back to number one so they never learned from it.  Instead of earning back number one by satisfying the gamers they had pissed off for ten years they just targetted a newer, larger, less critical group and got back number one that way.  So while taking their fanbase for granted is still wrong I don't find it the least bit surprising.

But the third party situation has gotten to a point where I don't really blame Nintendo for it anymore.  Now they still obviously don't care about the issue and have no intention of addressing it but the third party publishers are just being SO DUMB now.  The Wii is the clear leader and has been for a while now.  Support it already and get your head out of your ass.

Offline Peachylala

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 01:26:39 PM »
Quote from: Ian Sane
Look how they ignored online gaming on the Cube despite protests and have a really lousy online model today which they never acknowledge the complaints of.  Look at their reaction to the storage problem.  It isn't a big concern to them.  They don't care.  They're making big money from rubes that don't complain about the storage issues.
The storage issue has been something I've always wondered about. Why did the Wii get such a small storage unit from the get-go, compared to the massive storage the PS3 and 360 have? Simple, the Gamecube hardly fired up sales charts DESPITE the profit Nintendo made, and hell, Nintendo didn't even think the Wii was going to be the success it is now back then. Why bother with giving a big storage when people might not even buy the damn thing?

Quote
Instead of earning back number one by satisfying the gamers they had pissed off for ten years they just targetted a newer, larger, less critical group and got back number one that way.  So while taking their fanbase for granted is still wrong I don't find it the least bit surprising.
That's what you get with a fanbase, for anything: you can never please them no matter what. People will bitch about anything. While I do wish Nintendo would listen to some feedback from us (mostly just us...), the majority (not us. =D) acts like selfish brats 95% of the time.

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Nintendo sucks at promoting "matoor" products, especially their own.

3rd parties who do release matoor products, don't bother promoting them.

DOUBLE WHAMMY OF DUMB
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 01:56:30 PM »
I guess it's just the question of whether Nintendo should be judged as an independent publisher or as a platform driver.

As an independent publisher, I can understand if they don't want to pick something up that doesn't fit with their philosophy.  But as a platform driver, it's DUMB for them to not want more variety on their systems.

So yeah.  I definitely think publishers should think outside the box more and ignore Nintendo for the most part, but I just think Nintendo has the power to change the mindset themselves, so I wonder why they aren't.

Maybe Sin & Punishment and Punch Out will help, but in my opinion both of those scream teenager, not adult.  I will thoroughly enjoy both though as an adult, I'm just talking perception here.

This is sad that Nintendo is really the only one we are reasonably expecting to fix these sorts of things. I agree that Nintendo has the power to change things... but that no one else can be expected to take some sort of initiative sorta makes the rest of the industry just look uninspiring.
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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
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Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
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Offline vudu

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 02:02:43 PM »
As much as we want to blame other publishers for this, I blame Nintendo really.  Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, publishers are both scared of and look up to Nintendo (as a publisher).  They constantly have the stress of having to compete with Nintendo's first party offerings.

While it's easy for us to say that they should do that by thinking outside the box and doing something DIFFERENT from what Nintendo is doing... Most marketing people will take Nintendo's sales as a sign of the industry and look to emulate their products.

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Offline Kairon

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 02:05:19 PM »
As much as we want to blame other publishers for this, I blame Nintendo really.  Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, publishers are both scared of and look up to Nintendo (as a publisher).  They constantly have the stress of having to compete with Nintendo's first party offerings.

While it's easy for us to say that they should do that by thinking outside the box and doing something DIFFERENT from what Nintendo is doing... Most marketing people will take Nintendo's sales as a sign of the industry and look to emulate their products.

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Carmine Red, Associate Editor

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.

Offline EasyCure

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 02:05:43 PM »
I guess it's just the question of whether Nintendo should be judged as an independent publisher or as a platform driver.

As an independent publisher, I can understand if they don't want to pick something up that doesn't fit with their philosophy.  But as a platform driver, it's DUMB for them to not want more variety on their systems.

So yeah.  I definitely think publishers should think outside the box more and ignore Nintendo for the most part, but I just think Nintendo has the power to change the mindset themselves, so I wonder why they aren't.

Maybe Sin & Punishment and Punch Out will help, but in my opinion both of those scream teenager, not adult.  I will thoroughly enjoy both though as an adult, I'm just talking perception here.

This is sad that Nintendo is really the only one we are reasonably expecting to fix these sorts of things. I agree that Nintendo has the power to change things... but that no one else can be expected to take some sort of initiative sorta makes the rest of the industry just look uninspiring.

Which its proven time and time again it is when it comes to Nintendo. You'd think that the market share wii has, and proven success of non-casual titles from 3rd parties, someone would take the hint that Wii is more than just a dumping ground for shovelware as well as realize its best NOT to compete with Nintendo games on their own turf, and instead do what they planned on doing eslewhere on Wii. But no, alot of devs/publishers are stupid enough to think that 1 + 1 = 3
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Offline Stogi

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2009, 02:08:52 PM »
The success of RE4, a port mind you, should be enough proof for any investor.
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2009, 02:15:53 PM »
The success of RE4, a port mind you, should be enough proof for any investor.

And then on top of that, RE:UC sold well too, yet their sales numbers are ignored. The fact that one is a port and the other is a spin-off have nothing to do with anything because the're still M rated titles that cater to an older audience and not necessarily the same audience that would buy wiisports and the like. Yet they still dismiss these numbers as a sort of fluke.
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
EASYCURE: I remember thinking(don't ask me why) this was a blond haired, blue eyed, chiseled athlete. Like he looked like Seigfried before he became Nightmare.

Offline vudu

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2009, 02:21:15 PM »
Did you two read the actual interview?  RE 4 came up a couple times.

Quote
In almost every case we got hung up with the sales and marketing groups. They simply could not get behind a survival horror title on the Wii. In spite of great sales for Resident Evil 4 and the Umbrella Chronicles, these groups were unable to support the projections required to create a viable P&L for the title. ... New IP is always a tough sell. It's a bigger investment and a bigger risk. But the potential upside is also much greater for everyone involved. Whenever we would remind publishers of Resident Evil sales numbers on the Wii they'd wave it off, saying, "but that's Resident Evil."
Why must all things be so bright? Why can things not appear only in hues of brown! I am so serious about this! Dull colors are the future! The next generation! I will never accept a world with such bright colors! It is far too childish! I will rage against your cheery palette with my last breath!

Offline Stogi

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2009, 02:24:35 PM »
That's my point. Instead of waving it off, they should have looked at it carefully and ask questions such as "Why was it such a success?"
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Offline EasyCure

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2009, 02:36:17 PM »
That's my point. Instead of waving it off, they should have looked at it carefully and ask questions such as "Why was it such a success?"

Yes, I read the interview and I'm sure Stogi did as well. Shrugging off the sales of RE4 is one thing, but the sales of RE:UC, the spin-off game that played nothing like the main series, shouldn't be ignored as "well its Resident Evil" because the other spin-off in the series never sold too hot, so there has to be another reason it sold the way it did, on the platform it did, besides "its resident evil."
February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Publishers Wouldn't Give n-Space's Winter a Chance
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 02:43:45 PM »
That's my point. Instead of waving it off, they should have looked at it carefully and ask questions such as "Why was it such a success?"

Yes, I read the interview and I'm sure Stogi did as well. Shrugging off the sales of RE4 is one thing, but the sales of RE:UC, the spin-off game that played nothing like the main series, shouldn't be ignored as "well its Resident Evil" because the other spin-off in the series never sold too hot, so there has to be another reason it sold the way it did, on the platform it did, besides "its resident evil."

It was a light gun game. Light Gun games have ALWAYS stormed the sales charts. Just look at... look at... oh wait...
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