Topic: Why Nintendo Hasn't Abandoned the Hardcore

[Kairon]

I am Core, a Nintendo only owner, and I am looking forward to Animal Crossing. Just wanted to say that.

Oh, and I also wanted to say this:

Buy third party games. For gosh sakes Nintendo fans buy THIRD PARTY GAMES!!!

[Peachylala]

Silly Kairon, Nintendo fans are still bitter over how Nintendo was treated during the 64/GCN eras.

And Miyamoto is seriously the only part of Nintendo I still respect. That, and EAD Tokyo.

And Monolith. And NOA Treehouse.

[Mario]

I just played BWii for the first time and it's several flavours of hardcore.

[Jonnyboy117]

Yeah, it's too bad Nintendo shat out BWii onto the marketplace.  Sent to die.  I wish we had reviewed it to give a little more positive press in the traditional gamer community.

[Morari]

How are BWii's online capabilities? Is it just one on one and coop? I'd like to see more games where two-players per console are possible (ala Brawl, Mario Kart, and Mario Strikers).

[Jonnyboy117]

Yeah, it's two player online but, disappointingly, there is no local multiplayer for either split screen or LAN.

I've heard that it's pretty hard to coordinate a strategy in co-op without voice chat.

[OzPrime]

A bunch of whiny brats that gave them the $$$ to create The Wii in first place.   

EXACTLY.  I've given Nintendo hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for their product.  In return, they give me games that I'm not remotely interested in.  I'm not happy with that.  That's not whining, that's customer displeasure.  If you ordered a steak well-done and got it rare and bloody, would you consider somebody that returned the steak to the chef a "whiny little brat"?  Gimme a break.

That's why I feel so used from Nintendo.  It's possible (probable) they couldn't have gotten this crazy success story that is the Wii WITHOUT the core, early adopters buying it for what we usually buy Nintendo systems for.  I'm glad they're back to the top of the heap, but for crying out loud give us a reason to continue out brand loyalty!  The rest of this year will have a lot of us core gamers looking at the other systems more than usual.

If we look at the Wii thus far we have a fairly solid collection of titles from Nintendo all geared to satiate the Nintendo "hardcore" crowd. We have seen Zelda, Mario, Metroid, Smash Bros, Battalion Wars, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart, Paper Mario, and Wario Ware on the Wii already. We also know that Nintendo is working on Disaster, Wario Land, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, a new Mario and a new Zelda.

Note that of the 15 titles you list in this paragraph, only ONE of them is a new IP (and it also happens to be the one that's most likely to be utterly mediocre).  Like D_Average said, if you think that Nintendo is going to suddenly do a 180 and release a ton of new IPs aimed at gaming purists, you're kidding yourself.  They've tilted the playing field up towards casual gamers, slowly causing traditional gamers to slide off to the 360 and PS3.

and if I remember correctly, Animal Crossing was one of their earliest tries at casual gaming, so to insinuate that it's a hardcore game (I'm looking at you Reggie), is nothing more than pandering...

I'll certainly get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyways: I no longer consider the Wii a "gamer's console" because as time goes on, there are less and less "gamer's games" for it.  Those types of games have become the exception, not the rule.  Flame away, but that's the way I see it, and Nintendo is doing nothing to convince me otherwise.  It's like they've said, "OK, make Wii sequels to all of the franchises that our hardcore fans expect, and that should shut them up."  I feel like Nintendo releases games like the ones you've listed only out of obligation, not because they really want to.  It's like they try to keep up this facade of wanting to appease traditional gamers when they could really care less.  It's pretty patronizing, actually.

If you're gonna get flamed for this, then I'll be the first to give you cover.  I pretty much second every word you said.  Hopefully there will be something more than "our Mario and Zelda teams are working on new stuff" later on in the year. Good to know Miyamoto and Co. are earning their keep at NCL, guys. 

Interesting to note that a lot of us Nintendo fans put up with quite a lot of crap from them and their decisions through the N64 and GC years only to keep coming back hoping they'd do SOMETHING right to get them back into the game.  Now, it seems the new found success from the decision they GOT RIGHT, may result in the final straw for a lot of Nintendo fans.   

If it IS simply a case of putting on a "casual gamers only" show for E3, then hopefully, the powers that be at Nintendo are aware of the internet uproar and disappointment of their presentation and will at least refine said presentation.  An awkward admission of a new Pikmin being made at the 11th hour. WTF?!

Silks, what size kevlar do you wear?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

You hardcore traditional serious gamers are getting an exclusive Sonic game for Wii.  Rejoice.

[stevey]

Nintendo's biggest mistake was not making it clear ahead of time that E3 for them was about the mainstream media and casual-friendly stuff and that the core gamer stuff would come at another time. If they'd done that then nobody would have expected anything and nobody would be getting ready to throw their Wii into a woodchipper because Nintendo doesn't love them anymore.

As has been said 100 times by now. Reggie said wait till e3 the core gamers will be greatly pleased.

Reggie made it quite clear in May the core would be "pleased" with E3

Reggie doesn't make games or decide on what Nintendo does. It obvious that Reggie did know what was going to be at E3 until a few days before and that Iwata made the reasonable decision not to waste tons of money on a press conference to sell the games to the people that would buy them regardless if shown at E3, spaceworld, or a small press event at their HQ and instead to use the event that the whole world watches to show their "nongames" and "casual games" to people who don't spend their lives checking Nintendo related sites.

[NWR_Lindy]

I don't know where this perception came from that E3 is targeted only at the mainstream press.  It's targeted at the gaming world, period, which means all gamers and gaming press alike (heck, most of the game journalists there are the hardest of the hardcore, like Windy, Jonny, Cai, and TYP for instance).  Saying that "Nintendo didn't show any non-casual games because E3 is targeted at the mainstream" is revisionist history (and apologizing for Nintendo, frankly).

It's funny, Sony and Microsoft didn't have any trouble accomodating both casual and traditional games in their presentations.  Obviously their focus is more on traditional gamers, sure, but they made an effort to reach out to both.  Nintendo apparently didn't think that such an effort was worth their time, instead focusing on the Fisher-Price portion of their lineup.  That's their business, but why on earth they would want to make a gamer like me say, "Wow, there's nothing on Wii that I even remotely want to buy" is beyond me.  Like Jonny so eloquently stated, it's their failure - heck, refusal - to communicate to the "hardcore" audience that I find so puzzling.  And for Reggie to pass off Animal Crossing as a hardcore title, well...that insults the intelligence of a LOT of people.

Silks, what size kevlar do you wear?

Have you seen the suit that Iron Man wears?

[Nick DiMola]

Wow, see I struck a chord with this one.... I really don't think Nintendo has abandoned hardcore gaming. They may be switching gears with a stronger approach at casual gaming, but they are still going to churn out the same epic franchises they always have. Occasionally we'll get something new out of them (see Disaster and Cpt. Rainbow), but for the most part they are content channeling their "new IP energy" so to say, towards the casual market.

I think Jonny hit the nail on the head, Nintendo for whatever reason doesn't see it necessary to communicate with the more gamer oriented crowd. Half of the problem is E3, the other half is Nintendo. They know where the money is at, and they know that *most* current Nintendo fans will eat up any scraps they throw us regardless, so why bother catering to us at press events? We don't drive their business anymore, so sadly enough they don't really care.

I won't argue for a minute that Nintendo seems to no longer have respect for us old faithfuls, but I won't agree that we have been abandoned. I honestly think there is plenty proof that they will still produce a number of titles geared toward us.

[Stogi]

MARIO GALAXY.

/thread win

[OzPrime]

I don't know where this perception came from that E3 is targeted only at the mainstream press.  It's targeted at the gaming world, period, which means all gamers and gaming press alike.

It's funny, Sony and Microsoft didn't have any trouble accomodating both casual and traditional games in their presentations.  Obviously their focus is more on traditional gamers, sure, but they made an effort to reach out to both.

The closest thing I've ever seen to the mainstream press covering E3 was usually business news channels and brief mentions in general news websites- nothing deep mind you, just a news blurb, that's all. 

Silks, what size kevlar do you wear?

Have you seen the suit that Iron Man wears?

Uhhhh....  *orders my Oompa Loompas to work faster*  Um, it's a perk that comes with being a Prime.  Long story, don't ask...

[ShyGuy]

You remember that episode of the X-files where they find a genie who grants three wishes, but she always finds a loophole to make the wishes granted turn around on her master?

I think some Nintendo hardcore fanboy in 2005 wished for Nintendo to be number one this generation, and it blew up in their face.

[Shift Key]

I'll certainly get flamed for this, but I'll say it anyways: I no longer consider the Wii a "gamer's console" because as time goes on, there are less and less "gamer's games" for it. 

Wow, way to sound like a pretentious arsehole. Is this like the whole "serious games" remark, because I'm getting the feeling that you're doing this for shits and giggles.

I get it - people didn't like Nintendo because there was little in it for the rabid Nintendo fans. I remember those days fondly, eating up the quality first party games. But what right do you have outside your narrow opinion to say that the Wii is no longer for people who like games? Lapsed gamers, non-core gamers, casual gamers, or whatever derogatory remarks they decide to use. They like games too. But I'll bet its not the same games you like. And the fact that you're bitter about it shows that it is these people who are the growth markets for the industry.

I'm glad that the big 3 are looking outside the core gamers (Microsoft's game about swatting things with an eye-toy like device, that was for gamers like you, right?) because video games might be something that you enjoy passionately (or whatever goes on behind closed doors) but they're not fighting for your attention - they're fighting for people coming into the market. If they shared your mindset (cater to the hardcore gamers only) then it would be a bleak market.

Basically, what Morari said except for badmouthing red meat.

Like D_Average said, if you think that Nintendo is going to suddenly do a 180 and release a ton of new IPs aimed at gaming purists, you're kidding yourself.

Hah, gaming purists. What a stupid remark. You sound like that guy on the driving range telling me my technique is wrong. What he doesn't understand is that I'm not a serious golfer and don't have an interest in hitting the ball further. I'm only there to hit some balls and drink some beer (and then do a Happy Gilmore and get kicked out, it was an awesome night).

Hyping an event is something all companies do, and it is odd that people are putting so much attention on Nintendo's conference when basically every publisher/developer out there treated E3 like a minor event.

I hate to quote GP when she's right on the money. I really do. But everyone else seems to be standing on their own soapboxes assuming E3 is still relevant. The sooner they get this through their thick heads, the better. Read it again.

As has been said 100 times by now. Reggie said wait till e3 the core gamers will be greatly pleased.

Sounds like you've never been disappointed before in your life. Go outside.

Instead of coming to the show with some teasers and straight talk for their long-term fans, Nintendo played semantics at E3.  They treated us like idiots with their pathetic diversionary tactics.

This just shows that E3 is no longer the showpiece of the gaming calendar for Nintendo. Were Sony and MS guilty of the same tactics?

Disclaimer: I no longer consider myself one of these "hardcore gamers" you guys speak about. I just enjoy highlighting the absurdity in other people's viewpoints. Flame away, the next most-powerful console I have is a PS2 and that's gathering dust.

[Nick DiMola]

I think the hardcore is so angry because they have supported Nintendo for so many years at this point and pulled them through Nintendo's toughest times, keeping them afloat when the competition was trouncing them. They feel as if Nintendo owes it to them, and they aren't wrong for feeling that way. Its going to be hard for a lot of people to accept that it isn't all about them anymore, but just because it isn't all about you still doesn't mean there is *nothing* for them either.

[BigJim]

Oh my god I can't believe it... some people are finally turning towards the issues I had with Nintendo for 2 years. If only they would have accepted my righteousness from the start, it would have saved us all from so much arguing.

Does Nintendo cater to both audiences? Yes. The problem is that Nintendo is just 1 company and the 3rd parties have not shown up to adequately complete the lineup with their AAA's. Therefore, it's within reason for some hardcore gamers to be tired of twiddling their thumbs in between the occasional releases that they care about.

It's not what Nintendo's doing. It's what they aren't doing. They can make casual games out the wazoo for all anybody really cares. The argument is they're not able to release enough hardcore games on their own to keep up with the demand.

If a casual gamer were to complain about the same thing (not enough Wii Sports/Wii Fit/Wii Whatever titles) then they very well could have a valid opinion as well too.

Point being, jack of all trades, master of none. Nintendo just isn't doing an exceptional job doing everything themselves in the face of lackadaisical 3rd party support. And people can only keep saying "They're coming. Wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it" for so many years until they just have to accept that the counter opinion may have a point.

The other problem is that the vast majority of "hardcore" games have been sequels, many of which are just plain uninspired. Animal Crossing merely being the latest example. If you can call that a hardcore game.

Ultimately the onus is on Nintendo to manage their platform. 3rd parties haven't jumped on guns blazing, and so until Nintendo adequately manages it all, the debate has merit. Unfortunately for gamers, Nintendo isn't going to change because they are doing exactly what they want to do. Their platform is all about their IPs at their schedule.

[UltimatePartyBear]

This thread is appalling.  One, steak is delicious.  Two, if you order a steak "well done," you're going to get the sorriest piece of meat the chef has on hand so he doesn't waste the good stuff on you.

Dang casual steak-eaters are ruining it for the rest of us.

[NWR_Lindy]

I prefer medium rare, FYI.   See?  I'm even hardcore in my steak-eating habits, because I DEMAND BLOOD.

[Morari]

Or food-born illness...

[Ian Sane]

Wow, see I struck a chord with this one.... I really don't think Nintendo has abandoned hardcore gaming. They may be switching gears with a stronger approach at casual gaming, but they are still going to churn out the same epic franchises they always have. Occasionally we'll get something new out of them (see Disaster and Cpt. Rainbow), but for the most part they are content channeling their "new IP energy" so to say, towards the casual market.

To me what you just described would be my definition of abandoning gamers ("hardcore gamers" are guys who beat world record scores in Pac-Man; if the new market is non-gamers then we're just gamers).  "Churn[ing[ out the same epic franchises" while "channeling their 'new IP energy' towards the casual market" sounds like going through the motions to me.  It sounds like a token effort and that's crap.  That's taking their fans for granted.  That's what the concern was years ago.  That's why I can't stand it when someone tries to pretend that the N64 era was worse.  No it wasn't because despite third party support problems at least then 100% of Nintendo's games were targetted at gamers (pretty much the only market at the time) and they were passionate about it.  When playing those games you could feel the pride Nintendo had in making them.  Mario Kart Wii in comparison feels like just a product with the same "token effort" that a Madden game would have.

And I don't get these accusations of whining.  Whining is going on and on about something that is only of minor annoyance and can be easily fixed.  If you go on and on about a movie you wanted to see being sold out on opening night you are whining.  Because in the end you'll see that movie a few days later.  Within days that bummer will have no effect on your life.

This is different.  Anyone on this forum obviously has a serious interest in videogames and in Nintendo.  It's a hobby.  Having a hobby stolen away from you sucks.  That doesn't ruin your life but it sure as hell affects it.  That is worth complaining about.  That happened to me with the WWF.  They started to focus on a new audience back in 1998 and slowly transformed into something I didn't like at all.  And they changed the whole industry in the process; they bought the competitors and a new competitor just aped the same formula.  Nothing exists anymore like what made me a fan in the first place.  That sucks.  Now my life goes on and I have other interests but it still bugs me.  It's an interest and a hobby I could still have but I can't because the hobby squeezed me out.  Now it's happening with my videogame hobby.

We have every right to complain because we're losing our hobby.  Nintendo doesn't owe us in the way they have to cater to our every whim but we're customers.  Our financial support is the reason Nintendo is even in the videogame business.  "Oh it's just a business!"  Just because someone is allowed to use you doesn't mean it's right.  Businesses, governments, employers, and even close friends, spouses, girlfriends/boyfriends and family can use you up and drop you like a hot potato but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't make you a whiner for pointing it out.  Nintendo and its fans have a business/customer relationship.  Nintendo is no longer pulling their weight in that relationship and we the customers have every right to complain.

Honestly I think those that call us whiners give me the vibe as the sort of people that aren't bothered by something unless it directly affects them.  It's the people who like Nintendogs and are interested in Wii Music that accuse us of whining.  In other words they're the ones who aren't affected and don't care that anyone else is.

[Ceric]

Playing Devil Advocates:

I would liken this to if Movies started catering towards a new crowd.  The artsy crowd.  So no those Action-flicks like Ironman or Batman are no longer made but, the touchy feelly dramatic things that dominate the artsy world would be.

Though that is not the case.  There is a true balance.  Problem with games are there isn't a true balance.  Artsy films seem to have reached a point where they are coming out at a frequent enough bases and level of quality to appease a large majority of that fanbase.  Its not so on games.  Even on the PS3 which is more hardcore I see things like Fallout 3 being what people are looking towards and waiting... and waiting... and waiting....

[Morari]

All of those old-school Fallout fans are waiting for it to come out on the PC... if at all. Many have severe reservations concerning the changes and updates.

Films should be more artistic. That would definitely be an improvement in the overall marketplace. As it is, you either have mindless action or the aforementioned wanna-be indies that are all about "quirky" characters coming to terms with their feelings. Both ways are lame and truly good films are still rare. Just like books and videogames, the majority of what's released will quite simply be junk.

[D_Average]

Obviously, Nintendo is still working on games that traditional gamers will enjoy.  And I understand why they didn't have much to show of such games at E3.  They just released some very big titles and may not be ready to show the follow-ups at this time.  All of that is perfectly understandable.

The problem with this E3 is that Nintendo didn't acknowledge any of these problems.  What we have here is a failure to communicate.  Nintendo not only ignored the traditional gamer at this show, they refused to answer any of our questions and diverted all complaints to Animal Crossing as a huge title that Joe Gamer should get excited for.  Sorry, I'm not interested in your rehashed N64 collect-a-thon.  You already released that one back on the GameCube... when we called it a casual game.

Instead of coming to the show with some teasers and straight talk for their long-term fans, Nintendo played semantics at E3.  They treated us like idiots with their pathetic diversionary tactics.  Do you know why people clapped at Miyamoto's Pikmin confirmation?  It's not because Pikmin is so beloved (it's really not) but because finally someone at Nintendo gave a straight answer to the traditional gamers.  At least, that's why I was clapping.

Hey Jonny, just thought you should know that Steven Totilo TOTALLY ripped off your reply to this thread and made an entire story out of it!  Who knew that he'd been trolling our forums?

"Nintendo And Its E3 Fans: A Failure To Communicate"
http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/07/22/nintendo-and-its-e3-fans/#more-5687

[BigJim]

I thought that was a pretty good article.