Essentially, the plan to live permanently by continuous force rebound was made on the fifth, and received further confirmation on the sixth. This was understood, as far as I can tell, by Khush to be my goal, and he never defined Jedi Mind-Trick as a risk to a rebounded person. The only weakness to a rebounded player is force manipulation and if he or she chooses not to protect his or her self, which is the way both Dasmos and GP died. To disallow a plan that was in effect so early in the game is unfair, since the townies knew the senator had the ability and voted on it himself. Day one was iffy, because commands were not in on time, and you admit, Khush, you made some mistakes with priority. Though there was precedence, if you abide by precedence, then Dasmos should not have died from the hit that both the mafia and the bounty hunter targetted him with, so the game, from day three onward would be null.
Players knew their abilities before hand, and had time to send in their actions before day one started, yet you still accepted them when day one was in progress, setting an incorrect precedence that you did not follow at a later date, for instance, when Insanolord PM'ed his ability a few minutes late, you did not accept that, and ignored what he asked you to do. That's once that you denied precedence, in addition to Dasmos's death. You've admitted you made a mistake in precedence, and rather than correcting your mistake now, you've instead gone and changed the rules, which I had a plan based off of for the majority of this game. Force Balance is not an attack, yet it is reflected. Investigation is not an attack, yet it is reflected. The use of Jedi Mind-Trick has been as an attack, yet now, all of a sudden, because of an early game mistake, the rules have been altered. I made certain to be clear on the rules of Force Rebound before I made a bill about the ability, and no where, no where at all, was Jedi Mind-Trick considered a risk. Just like with Force Balance, the ability should be rebounded, and the user should be forced to vote the way he or she wanted to force someone else to vote, since that what the nearest scenario in the rules implied. Yes, you made a mistake on day one, but by doling out this ruling, you're punishing players who have made plans based on the written status quo. I'll be fine with your ruling if Spak or anyone else was planning to use Jedi Mind-Trick on the senator ever since that bill was written and shown to everyone. If that's the case, then you all are more clever in this game than I give you credit for. However, I'll need proof that you had a contigency plan for my plan from that point, otherwise, this ruling hurts the proactive, plan making player, and praises those that have foolishly acted on something without looking to the disadvantages brought with it.
You are still reading the situation wrong. When Dasmos was killed Day 3, his Day 3 action was an investigation, he had no protection that day. His death was legitimate. So, the game is not null from day 3.
As for letting people send in actions on Day 1, I told everyone that needed to send in their actions a day early that it was a one-time thing. Insanolord had Force Balance. With that power, he had to send the action to me an hour before the voting deadline. I warned everyone when the action deadline's were and I posted them in the Quick Sheet. The Force Balance player was never a person who had to send in an action before the game began unlike a Force Rebound player or the mafia's decision of who should be Godfather. So, if he sent in an action late, it was his fault and had nothing to do with the actions I let come in late on Day 1. So, your argument about precedence doesn't work here.
Force Balance is reflected, Force Insight is not and that's why I mentioned that in my post of questions I pondered. Why isn't Insight reflected also? If Insight could break through the Force Rebound, why can't one vote change?
Your right that I never said the Jedi Mind Trick was an attack but I also never forsaw a situation like this a rising where it really could be used for a kill. In this case, the attack is changing the player's vote to themselves. Yet, as I stated, what about people who vote publicly for the player with Force Rebound? Isn't that an attack to kill the player by the vote? Shouldn't those votes have rebounded back to them? For that matter, why not just say so and so has been protected by Force Rebound so you can't vote for them and prevent such an attack. Moreover, is the vote change really an attack or is it getting voted out that is the attack? If a vote was a runaway and the Jedi Mind Trick changed the Force Rebound player's vote even though it did nothing to change the end result of the vote, is that an attack?
The way the plan was presented to me was that the attack (getting voted out) would be rebounded back to the player with Force Rebound since he would end up voting for himself. There was no rule about preventing one's own attack from being rebounded back on to them. The question is which is an attack, changing a vote or getting voted out or both.
Let me ask you this thayguy, let's go back to the Toruresu vote. I think it was 7 votes in his favor and no else had a vote. Let's say that you had Force Rebound and you protected yourself and voted Toruresu. Meanwhile, the player with Jedi Mind Trick changes your vote to yourself. Would you care? Should the end results say Toruresu 6 votes, Thatguy 1 vote. That way people know who the Jedi Mind Trick player used his power on. Or if the vote was Rebounded, Toruresu 6, Jedi Mind Trick - 1. Now that player has just found someone with Force Rebound. Is it neccessary? Let's say it was a tie between two people with Force Rebound. The player with Jedi Mind Trick can't break the tie then. Why bother with making this role then? At least it would let the vote rebound to one player instead of the vote rebounding twice against two people.
There's too many cases where I wouldn't consider the Jedi Mind Trick an attack. If it's not an attack, then I'd allow it. If it is allowed in all those other cases, then it should rightfully be allowed now. You say I'm changing the rules but where in the rules does it say the Force Rebound reflects the Jedi Mind Trick? I know, you could argue where in the rules does it say Force Rebound doesn't deflect the JMT? That's the point. That's why we are at this issue of clarification.
Not to mention that there has never been a case in the game where with 9 people left there is only one vote cast. For that matter even in games where there was 3 people left, it's never been 1 vote cast. This is a situation I never forsaw arising. Now I have to deal with an issue I never saw arising as well as a role that probably wouldn't be under such scrutiny if this situation had never occured.
Let's say yesterday that two other people voted Nuclearspeed and Nuclearspeed also had Mind Trick applied to him. Would it have mattered? Nuclearspeed already won the vote and he has a choice of two other people to rebound the vote to. Big deal if his vote was changed by the JMT or not. As I've stated, there is only an issue with the Jedi Mind Trick working because of all the roles, it suddenly has the entire game in the balance because of a unique situation.
Reflecting on the role, I'd have to say that I would let the JMT switch the vote of the Rebound player. In most cases, it is inconsequential when this happens and if it breaks a tie, it is still inconsequential since the Rebounded player would survive the vote and have someone else to send the vote to, like Day 1. It is only because now of this one unique scenario that it would suddenly be a problem.
And to be frank, you didn't help the situation when you decided to be so cock-sure about victory that you revealed people's roles. Had you not done that, it may have helped the player with Force Rebound at least trick other people into joining him in a vote preventing this scenario. Part of the reason this plan of one vote for the day worked is because you made immensly easy for the townies to group together and trust one another. Not to mention, in your mafia game, you made a tweak to a rule here and there as the game was going on. Clarification happens it. It happens in every game.
Not to mention, you posted asking me questions about the Force Rebound role and how I never mentioned the Jedi Mind Trick working against it. Well, you yourself never asked if the Jedi Mind Trick worked against Force Rebound either nor do I think you ever forsaw a situation like this arising if it did. To critize the townies for reacting instead of planning so you deserve a ruling in your favor is also not going to help your case. Even in games where one has well-planned strategy, stuff happens that causes you to change it. Does that mean you don't deserve a win because you had to react to something that changed your strategy? But because you developed a situation and made the townies react to it, suddenly their efforts shouldn't be rewarded if they are successful in reacting against it?
I know you assumed with Force Manipulation out, you were invincible. I had no reason to think otherwise myself. The fact that the townies have found a bit of a solution is it admirable. You are arguing that I'm breaking my own rules to help them win. Yet, as I've pointed out, the only way the JMT could be considered braking my rules is in this one scenario raised. Every other time, using the Mind Trick against a rebounded player would be of no consequence whether successful or rebounded. It's a loophole. It works.
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Topic: Star Wars Mafia Day 8. Coruscant (Read 23369 times)
