Topic: Factor 5 dissapointed in developers effort in the Wii's graphics

[King of Twitch]

Another week, another desperate Sony-funded propaganda hit piece. When will a real journalist stand up to this bull#^$&

[NWR_insanolord]

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Originally posted by: MJRx9000
Another week, another desperate Sony-funded propaganda hit piece. When will a real journalist stand up to this bull#^$&

Sony's stupider than I thought if they're paying people to say good things about the Wii's graphics.

[Terranigma Freak]

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I once had the pleasure of reading someone on another forum try to persuade people that 128-bit was better than 64-bit because the former was 10^64 times more powerful, or something stupid like that.

Did you know that the PS2 was the ONLY 128 Bit system last generation? Both the Xbox and the GC had 64 bit CPUs.

Also, the GC definitely was NOT known as the weakest of the 3 (unless they're PS2 fanboys). The general misconception last gen was the the Xbox was more powerful than the GC. The true is that both systems trade blows here and there. The GC had the upper hand in certain things whereas the Xbox had the upper hand in other areas. One of the Xbox's biggest advantage is its similarity to the PC. It basically uses the same shaders as the PC games, so it was easier to port things to the Xbox. The GC uses TEVs to do their "shader" effects. It's powerful, but people still had to learn something new in order to make good use of it.

And I'd rather have a Factor 5 game than some crappy RPG from Square Soft or EA.

[mantidor]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Factor 5 is criticizing other developers on their graphical technology, the one area where Factor 5 is really on good standing.

They all are apart of game creation and you need BOTH. Besides what do they know about other genres? All I've seen are visuals mean't to represent flying games (And from what I've read of Lair it has some framerate issues), at least other developers, um, TRY to create different gaming experiences both gameplay wise and graphically.

I think you are bashing them just because.

This is about graphics, they do know their thing in that department so honestly is retarted to say they don't have the authority to say that. Gameplay or genres are irrelevant for this kind of statement.

[KDR_11k]

Did you know that the PS2 was the ONLY 128 Bit system last generation? Both the Xbox and the GC had 64 bit CPUs.

I think the only 128 bit part of the PS2 was some data bus which is really no accomplishment, most processor parts were 32 or 64 bit. The Xbox is x86-based, there was no 64 bit version of that architecture back then. The Gamecube uses a fairly old PPC processor that was still 32 bit for most purposes even though there were some modifications in it that used 64 bit.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: mantidor

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Factor 5 is criticizing other developers on their graphical technology, the one area where Factor 5 is really on good standing.

They all are apart of game creation and you need BOTH. Besides what do they know about other genres? All I've seen are visuals mean't to represent flying games (And from what I've read of Lair it has some framerate issues), at least other developers, um, TRY to create different gaming experiences both gameplay wise and graphically.

I think you are bashing them just because.

This is about graphics, they do know their thing in that department so honestly is retarted to say they don't have the authority to say that. Gameplay or genres are irrelevant for this kind of statement.

I am bashing them because they don't see the log in their eye, they are perhaps one of the most stale repetitive companies going, so to critisize others when they themselves have huge problems of their own is ridiculous.

[Strell]

They aren't making the claim that their gameplay is amazing/unrivaled/super fantastic.

They are saying other developers suck at graphics on the Wii, and that's because they are lazy and don't care.  Then they turn around and blame it on the weakness of the system, which F5 says is nonsense because you can still accomplish good visual with what is there.

When we've got Midway churning out a game that literally looks like a gimped DS game, there's something wrong.

This is like getting mad at the guy who has a fruit cart on the street for not having any hot dogs.  Where are all the hot dogs! you cry out.  The guy appropriately flips you off and says to buy a banana or stfu.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Strell
They aren't making the claim that their gameplay is amazing/unrivaled/super fantastic.

They are saying other developers suck at graphics on the Wii, and that's because they are lazy and don't care.  Then they turn around and blame it on the weakness of the system, which F5 says is nonsense because you can still accomplish good visual with what is there.

When we've got Midway churning out a game that literally looks like a gimped DS game, there's something wrong.

This is like getting mad at the guy who has a fruit cart on the street for not having any hot dogs.  Where are all the hot dogs! you cry out.  The guy appropriately flips you off and says to buy a banana or stfu.

I wonder what excuse they have for Lair, which appears to be a graphically flawed game? Not to mention the fact that all I've seen visually from Factor 5 is flying games, I don't even know if they can pull off good visuals in other genres.

[Strell]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I wonder what excuse they have for Lair, which appears to be a graphically flawed game? Not to mention the fact that all I've seen visually from Factor 5 is flying games, I don't even know if they can pull off good visuals in other genres.

I'm curious what either of these two things have to do with what they are talking about.

Maybe you can non-sequitur it up a little for me.

 

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Strell

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I wonder what excuse they have for Lair, which appears to be a graphically flawed game? Not to mention the fact that all I've seen visually from Factor 5 is flying games, I don't even know if they can pull off good visuals in other genres.

I'm curious what either of these two things have to do with what they are talking about.

Maybe you can non-sequitur it up a little for me.

My point is that I'm not even sure they have any room to critisize other genres, it is like comparing apples to oranges. You wouldn't compare the "graphics" of something like Fight Night to a Mario platformer, just like you can't compare the visuals of a flying game to any other genre. Now if Factor 5 did some other type of game for Wii, I could understand the argument because ever genre requires different sacrifices in the visuals. Just because Factor 5 rode its one trick pony throughout Wii's lifespan doesn't make them a real authority in visual acuity. Now if there was another flying game similar to their Rogue Squadron or Lair I would say they would have that authority, but there are only a couple of games that match that description (In fact I think only Wing Island and Heatseeker are the only flying genre games out for Wii).

[Strell]

Man, you are completely taking their targeted claim and applying a bunch of additions to it, and then throwing backhanded responses based on all this extraneous crap you're soldering on.

They made a very targeted claim - developers can do better with the graphics.  And while graphical style might be subjective, there's a hefty objective component that says you ought to be able to guarantee an acceptable FPS rate, appropriate textures, and models that at least give the impression that your artists have some semblance of capability.  And that is EXACTLY what F5 is hitting on, because we've seen a ton of titles where the developer obviously didn't care about the aesthetics at all.  Ubisoft is the best example, but Midway is on their way to dethroning them.

I get to make that claim despite the subjective nature of graphics because Super Mario Galaxy looks gorgeous, and within a year, we'll be seeing games that truly stress that the Wii operates well beyond the Gamecube's capabilities.  Brawl itself looks amazing, and I'm wondering where games like Disaster will come into play.

You're turning this into a whole thing about one-trick-pony-ness and an assault on how "certain genres do graphics different than other genres."  Amazing.  Neither of those things have anything to do with their assertion, and beyond that, the whole genres thing isn't profound, it's obvious.  Of course a fighter's engine has to function differently from a racer's.  Or a shooter's, a RTS's, a god simulation's, a platformer's, or a sports's.

They aren't criticizing genres, they aren't criticizing people trying to make flying games, they are saying the graphics are faulty due to faulty developers being lazy on PURPOSE in order to maximize profits.  All these other things you are bringing up require their own thread, so I suggest you go make it and hope you draw enough people in there to get some kind of discussion going on, instead of one man railing against a company because he can't get past their products and their limitations/triumphs.

Stop with all this "F5 passes themselves off as the sole authority."  That's bullsh*t.  

[Smash_Brother]

By the way, this comment smells to me like they're trying to reestablish a connection with the Nintendo fanbase by suggesting that we deserve better which in turn suggests to me that how badly they were just burned on the PS3 will have them heading back toward the Wii.

[Ian Sane]

It's a shame Factor 5's last two games sucked nuts.  Not only because it would make people take their legitimate point here seriously but just because personally I would rather the creators of Rogue Leader make good games because I know they're capable of it.

So far on the Wii the only developer that I've noticed to actually put any real effort in has been Retro Studios.  Now HAL and Nintendo have stuff in the works that also demonstrates effort but right now it's Metroid Prime 3 and then practically everything else is either some non-game that graphically could have been done on the N64 with only bluriness being an issue or it's a port of a last-gen title (or in Super Paper Mario's case it started as a last gen title).  Nintendo is so far the only one who gives a sh!t and they're not even consistent with that.  It seems that because the Wii is a non-gamer focused system that devs are intentionally abusing the knowledge that the userbase is unfamiliar with games and thus ignorant of what level of quality should be expected.  Factor 5 is just talking about graphics but it goes beyond that.  There's just a lot of sh!t outright.  My co-worker who owns a Wii suggests I get Zelda and Resident Evil 4.  I buy a Wii and the BEST games he can recommend me are f*cking GAMECUBE GAMES?!

Now Nintendo has a lot of influence.  They started the trend at launch.  WiiSports slacks off bigtime in presentation and Zelda was actually a Gamecube game (delaying the Cube release so that the Wii version came out first doesn't change that).  It's no surprise that the Wii lineup is the way it is.  Hopefully now that Metroid Prime 3 is out and games like SSB Brawl and Super Mario Galaxy are on their way Nintendo will raise the bar.  They'll actually have more than one game that looks like someone tried to make full use of the hardware and hopefully that will encourage others to follow.  But then the Wii has already established itself as a console where third parties can dump crap and watch it sell which just isn't good.  That might not change.  What I hope is that when the really good games come out that the userbase notices them and raises their expectations accordingly so that crap doesn't sell anymore and everyone starts putting some damn effort into their games.

Though in Japan I expect all of those titles to bomb for being, you know, good and stuff.

[mantidor]

I'll get murdered for this but, honestly, I didn't saw a noticeable improvement in MP3. *ducks* In fact, it was the first thing my brother said, although he also mentioned he didn't see how GC graphics could be improved since they are already very good. For such an excellent art direction I see his point, and I don't expect Lair of course, but I'm sure the console can do better, technically.

It would also be ok if it was a trade for more enemies on screen or better AI or something, but the game doesn't have this. Maybe the open areas, but they aren't much different than the ones in echoes.

Then again, I do not own a widescreen TV, I guess it would look better with the progressive scan thing but I thought Nintendo's focus wasn't on that, but in the far more bigger SDTV install base.

[ShyGuy]

Mantidor....

MANTIDOR

MP3 grafix>LAIR grafix

[bustin98]

Actually, yes, there is a marked improvement in the graphics going from SDTV to EDTV. Also widescreen is nice as well.

Another item to keep in mind is there is already a style established for Metroid Prime.  Retro is conscious of it and decided not to use various texture maps to stay in line with the art direction. It does look better: bloom lighting, increased polygons on Samus, any one notice the nice round lens flare around Samus after defeating a meteor boss? And the reflective surface on the ship. Its subtle, but its there. And the cool way the pirates disenegrate after torching them.

I think its silly to want or expect a huge leap in graphics for MP3. Just like Halo 3. There's a reason it doesn't look like Gears of War and its not technology.

[darknight06]

The original Metroid Prime saw a marked improvement in visuals in progressive scan, and Prime 3 just kills it almost everywhere.  The lighting is better, the textures on a whole are far better, the environments are more spaced out and look more believable because of it, the particles look a ton better, and none of that includes the fact that it runs better on a whole compared to the first two.  The only downgrade is the increased load times between areas, 1 and 2 were much quicker in this regard although one could say it's because they weren't doing as much.

[Terranigma Freak]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Did you know that the PS2 was the ONLY 128 Bit system last generation? Both the Xbox and the GC had 64 bit CPUs.

I think the only 128 bit part of the PS2 was some data bus which is really no accomplishment, most processor parts were 32 or 64 bit. The Xbox is x86-based, there was no 64 bit version of that architecture back then. The Gamecube uses a fairly old PPC processor that was still 32 bit for most purposes even though there were some modifications in it that used 64 bit.

No, the emotion engine is a 128 bit CPU.

[Ian Sane]

"I'll get murdered for this but, honestly, I didn't saw a noticeable improvement in MP3."

You deserve to be murdered... for your crappy grammar!  "I didn't saw"?  That's terrible.

[Plugabugz]

Developers look at the Wii as glass half empty.

70% less costs than a 3 title? Great, 70% less effort to boot!

[mantidor]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I'll get murdered for this but, honestly, I didn't saw a noticeable improvement in MP3."

You deserve to be murdered... for your crappy grammar!  "I didn't saw"?  That's terrible.

ARGH! *hides head in shame* this is your fault people I learned english from forums and sitcoms a terrible way of practicing a foreign language.

I agree with the point on the styleand the need for continuity in the art direction of the series. Like I said, there isn't a lot to be improved, specially because MP1 and 2 are incredibly good.

However Retro managed the impossible, I didn't think there could be a worst 3D model of Samus face in 3D after echoes, but how wrong I was!

[GoldenPhoenix]

Granted I never got to play MP2, but MP3 has some stunning draw distances. I don't recall anything nearly as grand in MP1, not to mention the game runs silky smooth.  

[Galford]

MP3 does look like a high end GC came.  I'm glad I'm not the only one to see that.
MP3 has great art direction better then most games.

Julian is correct about developers being lazy on the Wii, but are publishers giving devs the budget to push the Wii?
Sad fact that no matter how good the team, the Wii will never push next-gen graphics.

Also the only thing 128-bit about the PS2 was the vector engines on the EE.

[Deguello]

Mario Galaxy is "Next Gen," whatever that means nowadays.  Galford fails.

[Shift Key]

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Originally posted by: Deguello
Mario Galaxy is "Next Gen," whatever that means nowadays.  Galford fails.

"Next-gen" is just some stupid excuse that people use to distract other people from the gameplay.