Author Topic: Rockstar has a new game called IV  (Read 72488 times)

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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #150 on: May 05, 2008, 11:59:36 AM »
I think Rockstar likes to make games that give them "attention whore" status because they do something controversial. I remember GTA:VC had controversy because it had the racist blurb of "Kill the Hatians", SA had the whole hot coffee fiasco.

While I do agree that was the case with the last games, GTAIV is quite a bit deeper than that...(For once the main character isn't a knob, and he's actually a good guy deep down...)
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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #151 on: May 05, 2008, 12:01:55 PM »
Stop killing hookers.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #152 on: May 05, 2008, 12:28:18 PM »
GP, I don't understand where you're coming from with the *gasp I can't make Niko a woman" comments.  I understand if you prefer that kind of customization, but I myself have always enjoyed a specific character with a specific background rather than a "create-a-character" that fits into the story.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant, though.

Not if you are actually creative, it is quite possible to shift elements of a story to fit a gender of a character maybe even their background. Think of it as a multi-branching story that is somewhat different depending on the character you create, something like a Mass Effect which tailors elements to the character creation without making it feel like "A character that fits into the story". Sandbox style games are about role play as much as they are about the environment you explore, at least that is how I perceive them, character customization needs to expand not diminish. Yeah it may take some more work to integrate the customization into a story that actually revolves around that character, and personally I'm not sure Rockstar has the creativity to do so, but it is something to strive for. At least GTA's competition is trying to do that stuff, but Rockstar seems to be stuck.

Rockstar is so proud of their pushing boundaries, why not at least push some boundaries with a female protagonist. If they are so dead set against taking the time to make an integrated create a character why not really go into new territory with the gender of their character. They probably won't though, they seem more than happy to make females into prostitutes with hardly any strong females.

I'm sorry to go against you here GP, but Rockstar is NOT making Mass Effect. They're making seedy underworld crime movies. And the movie they're making, in the form of a videogame, very specifically calls for a male protagonist.

What we have to realize is that Rockstar isn't really making a sand-box game. They're making a game recreation of these types of movies, within the confines of the sandbox genre. The only reason it's sandbox isn't because that's the boundary that Rockstar wants to push, but because American/Western gaming sensibilities emphasize freedom of choice and action, and deep full-scale simulations, over tightly wound gameplay threads.

The only thing that Rockstar wants to do is make games that are as close as possible to underworld crime movies... and a lot of those don't have female protagonists, nor do they offer the open-endedness that would accept a feminine character. I'm not a fan of that movie genre much, but it seems to me to be a very structured genre, a very narrated one, and one in which traditional and possibly misogynistic gender roles are very important and very prevalent.

Good excuse to not expand their gameplay. Very convenient way to skip out on expanding the plot. I used Mass Effect as an example of how you can expand plots with different characters without sacrificing story. You give Rockstar far too much credit for a game that is meant to be a sandbox game that is tied together with a plot. The game is NOT structured, if it was events would occur with or without you getting to the next checkpoint to activate a mission to push the plot along. The odd thing is that I've seen a few of these crime movies and not a whole lot of them have the protagonist driving around to pick up hookers to help him recover from his injuries and then have the protagonist kill them. Some of these crime movies do actually have strong female leads as well which are absent in Rockstar games, sot hat point is suspect.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #153 on: May 05, 2008, 12:28:52 PM »
I think Rockstar likes to make games that give them "attention whore" status because they do something controversial. I remember GTA:VC had controversy because it had the racist blurb of "Kill the Hatians", SA had the whole hot coffee fiasco.

While I do agree that was the case with the last games, GTAIV is quite a bit deeper than that...(For once the main character isn't a knob, and he's actually a good guy deep down...)

Good guys kill hookers. To be serious this is a problem I have with most of these Sandbox games that fans argue as being this "cohesive" story, and I think it is fair to be especially harsh with Rockstar because they started the genre and should be able to advance it. In Rockstar's games you can put the Green River Killer to shame, but the basic story is "Oh he really isn't a bad guy", it is like you are living two totally disconnected plots. To be fair at least Rockstar advanced this a bit with some missions on going on killing sprees, but it is still extremely flawed for a game that individuals like Kairon argue is a "crime movie".
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 12:53:20 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2008, 12:33:45 PM »
I think Rockstar likes to make games that give them "attention whore" status because they do something controversial. I remember GTA:VC had controversy because it had the racist blurb of "Kill the Hatians", SA had the whole hot coffee fiasco.

While I do agree that was the case with the last games, GTAIV is quite a bit deeper than that...(For once the main character isn't a knob, and he's actually a good guy deep down...)

Good guys kill hookers.

Because we all know that good guys have pent up anger so they have to take it out on the ladies of the night ;).
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2008, 01:07:26 PM »
Good guys kill hookers. To be serious this is a problem I have with most of these Sandbox games that fans argue as being this "cohesive" story, and I think it is fair to be especially harsh with Rockstar because they started the genre and should be able to advance it. In Rockstar's games you can put the Green River Killer to shame, but the basic story is "Oh he really isn't a bad guy", it is like you are living two totally disconnected plots. To be fair at least Rockstar advanced this a bit with some missions on going on killing sprees, but it is still extremely flawed for a game that individuals like Kairon argue is a "crime movie".

That is, of course, the limit of having a lot of freedom...The way I play the game involves me trying to involve as few innocents as possible...Unless I'm jacking their car... ='D
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2008, 02:07:59 PM »
Good guys kill hookers. To be serious this is a problem I have with most of these Sandbox games that fans argue as being this "cohesive" story, and I think it is fair to be especially harsh with Rockstar because they started the genre and should be able to advance it. In Rockstar's games you can put the Green River Killer to shame, but the basic story is "Oh he really isn't a bad guy", it is like you are living two totally disconnected plots. To be fair at least Rockstar advanced this a bit with some missions on going on killing sprees, but it is still extremely flawed for a game that individuals like Kairon argue is a "crime movie".

That is, of course, the limit of having a lot of freedom...The way I play the game involves me trying to involve as few innocents as possible...Unless I'm jacking their car... ='D

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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2008, 03:02:39 PM »
Good guys kill hookers. To be serious this is a problem I have with most of these Sandbox games that fans argue as being this "cohesive" story, and I think it is fair to be especially harsh with Rockstar because they started the genre and should be able to advance it. In Rockstar's games you can put the Green River Killer to shame, but the basic story is "Oh he really isn't a bad guy", it is like you are living two totally disconnected plots. To be fair at least Rockstar advanced this a bit with some missions on going on killing sprees, but it is still extremely flawed for a game that individuals like Kairon argue is a "crime movie".

That is, of course, the limit of having a lot of freedom...The way I play the game involves me trying to involve as few innocents as possible...Unless I'm jacking their car... ='D

Then again it is possible to integrate consequences in your actions that may even affect the flow of the story. But I am happy you aren't pro-killing innocent people :P.
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Offline Dirk Temporo

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2008, 05:10:39 PM »
1. Escaping police is much more tedious

Which is an improvement.

Quote
2. Less building interaction

what

Quote
3. Less ground to explore (I'm sorry but I like to feel free in sandbox games, which is why I have a soft spot for GTA SA. This is in itself is a reason to prefer aspects of San Andreas to GTAIV)

Fun fact: New York City isn't as big and open as California.

Quote
4. Some vehicles have been cut like the airplane (Probably will be in the next game)

Oh noes. They cut vehicles which would be completely useless. :(

Quote
5. Not really related to previous GTA games, but where is progress in character customization?

Rockstar has commented on that several times.

Quote
There aren't even exercise related customization.

Because it was f**king stupid.

Quote
Pathetic in my opinion especially when games like Saints Row will let you, gasp, actually be a woman! Amazing, some companies are actually getting over their sexist portrayal of women.

Not portraying women as gangbangers is not "sexist." Women make up a miniscule, almost non-existent, portion of organized crime. The women that ARE involved in organized crime are almost always drug dealers, and nothing more.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #159 on: May 05, 2008, 05:31:30 PM »
Good excuse to not expand their gameplay. Very convenient way to skip out on expanding the plot. I used Mass Effect as an example of how you can expand plots with different characters without sacrificing story. You give Rockstar far too much credit for a game that is meant to be a sandbox game that is tied together with a plot. The game is NOT structured, if it was events would occur with or without you getting to the next checkpoint to activate a mission to push the plot along. The odd thing is that I've seen a few of these crime movies and not a whole lot of them have the protagonist driving around to pick up hookers to help him recover from his injuries and then have the protagonist kill them. Some of these crime movies do actually have strong female leads as well which are absent in Rockstar games, sot hat point is suspect.

What movies? I'd be happy to put them on my netflix!

But yeah, perhaps Rockstar is at fault here, but not because they're reluctant to advance the genre or anything like that. Instead, I think they've come smack up against the problems of trying to push both for cinematic gaming... and decidedly uncinematic freedom. Both are directions that western game development is chasing, and both are highly incompatible.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #160 on: May 05, 2008, 07:04:11 PM »
1. Escaping police is much more tedious

Which is an improvement.

Quote
2. Less building interaction

what

Quote
3. Less ground to explore (I'm sorry but I like to feel free in sandbox games, which is why I have a soft spot for GTA SA. This is in itself is a reason to prefer aspects of San Andreas to GTAIV)

Fun fact: New York City isn't as big and open as California.

Quote
4. Some vehicles have been cut like the airplane (Probably will be in the next game)

Oh noes. They cut vehicles which would be completely useless. :(

Quote
5. Not really related to previous GTA games, but where is progress in character customization?

Rockstar has commented on that several times.

Quote
There aren't even exercise related customization.

Because it was f**king stupid.

Quote
Pathetic in my opinion especially when games like Saints Row will let you, gasp, actually be a woman! Amazing, some companies are actually getting over their sexist portrayal of women.

Not portraying women as gangbangers is not "sexist." Women make up a miniscule, almost non-existent, portion of organized crime. The women that ARE involved in organized crime are almost always drug dealers, and nothing more.

Good for you, you like the tedious and annoying cop escape "radius" game, I do not. Building interaction is referring to being able to go into more buildings instead of GTA's painted doors.

Fun Fact: There is no reason to limit it to Liberty City AGAIN, the genre is moving past a cramped city. It worked for GTA3 but it is outdated for a series that expanded that.

Exercise: Your opinion, it was a step in the right direction and could have been fine tuned.

Women: Because GTA is a great realism simulator right? We all know most women are hookers right? The sexist stereotypes are borderline sickening in GTA games and don't even come close to replicating anything in reality so why not get their "Creative" juices going and try a female gangster working her way up, could make for a unique story.

Crime Movies with strong female characters (I know I'm forgetting some):

-The Godfather movies had some secondary but strong women (probably the king crime movie)
-Scarface (The original 30s film)

Those are two right there. Guess it depends what you consider a "crime" movie. Does Kill Bill count? ROFL.

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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #161 on: May 05, 2008, 08:04:38 PM »
I think you should finish the game first before continuing on about Rockstar's classic stereotypes...Just a heads-up... =)

(Hint: There's a rather solid and realistic gang family woman later on...)
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2008, 08:51:40 PM »
Who?  Wife of the HAMBURGLAR?
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2008, 09:06:51 PM »
I think you should finish the game first before continuing on about Rockstar's classic stereotypes...Just a heads-up... =)

(Hint: There's a rather solid and realistic gang family woman later on...)

I read about that, mainly mixed views on her. I'll see when I get the time to play more of the game which is going to be tough with Boom Blox! Let me be clear even though I have some problems with GTAIV I still think it is a good to great game, there are just areas that I find disappointing.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 09:35:58 PM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline Dirk Temporo

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2008, 04:48:04 PM »
Good for you, you like the tedious and annoying cop escape "radius" game, I do not. Building interaction is referring to being able to go into more buildings instead of GTA's painted doors.

It's easier to escape your wanted level in GTA 4.. Two and three starts were stupidly difficult to escape before, whereas  four+ was completely impossible without a Pay'n'Spray. So I still fail to see what you're complaining about. Also, you can go into more buildings in this game than in SA, not counting safehouses.

Quote
Fun Fact: There is no reason to limit it to Liberty City AGAIN, the genre is moving past a cramped city. It worked for GTA3 but it is outdated for a series that expanded that.

The city has THREE TIMES THE LAND MASS of GTA 3. That means if you took every island in GTA 3, and put it all together, it would make up ONE of the islands in GTA 4. That is not, in any way, "limiting" Liberty City.

Quote
it was a step in the right direction and could have been fine tuned.

Your opinion. (Teehee. See what I did there?)

Quote
We all know most women are hookers right? The sexist stereotypes are borderline sickening in GTA games and don't even come close to replicating anything in reality so why not get their "Creative" juices going and try a female gangster working her way up, could make for a unique story.

The entire GTA series is based on stereotypes, satire, and generally making fun of everyone. Women don't get special treatment.

Also, a GTA game with a woman as a main character would be COMPLETELY different than one with a male main character. It's not like Metroid or Perfect Dark where the character being a woman doesn't mean anything. If they didn't design two completely different storylines, one for male, one for female, LOTS of people would be pissed. There's no reason they should have to spend the time and effort on that just to appeal to the 2% of gamers who even care.

I know women who play GTA, and none of them are as BAWWWWWWWW as you.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #165 on: May 06, 2008, 08:26:37 PM »
Yeah, it may be that Rockstar is writing an experience deliberately focused at a... male-dominated audience. Umm... which makes me feel real dumb for discovering something that's seemingly apparent.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #166 on: May 06, 2008, 11:03:32 PM »
Yeah, it may be that Rockstar is writing an experience deliberately focused at a... male-dominated audience. Umm... which makes me feel real dumb for discovering something that's seemingly apparent.

So I guess Rockstar isn't for pushing boundaries right? Just boundaries that involve shock value. How surprising.

Since I don't think Dirk deserves much response:
-City is still cramped (My whole point, not how "big" the city's land mass is compared to GTA3
-You must have played a different game than me in regards to the cops
-Building interaction: see Godfather
-Women are shown and treated like crap for the most part in the series, the male characters are not so overwhelmingly shown like this. Obviously you didn't read my points in how this could be accomplished and that maybe they could have a female lead for once.


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Offline KnowsNothing

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2008, 11:18:09 PM »
So I went ahead and bought this game.  It's okay.  I kind of wish I waited for a PC version since it seems like the kind of game I'll just go mess around in every once in a while and I won't be able to do that next year when I go to school...

Anyway, it's alright, I guess.  Only a couple hours in so obviously the missions are boring, but even keeping that in mind everything just seems underwhelming to me.  It's my first GTA game ever, too.  Perhaps this just isn't my type of game.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2008, 11:26:32 PM »
So I went ahead and bought this game.  It's okay.  I kind of wish I waited for a PC version since it seems like the kind of game I'll just go mess around in every once in a while and I won't be able to do that next year when I go to school...

Anyway, it's alright, I guess.  Only a couple hours in so obviously the missions are boring, but even keeping that in mind everything just seems underwhelming to me.  It's my first GTA game ever, too.  Perhaps this just isn't my type of game.

Wow. Have you played any previous "sandbox" games like Godfather, Scarface, or Saint's Row?
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2008, 11:34:20 PM »
Yeah, it may be that Rockstar is writing an experience deliberately focused at a... male-dominated audience. Umm... which makes me feel real dumb for discovering something that's seemingly apparent.

So I guess Rockstar isn't for pushing boundaries right? Just boundaries that involve shock value. How surprising.

Not so much any shock value. The only shock value that Rockstar is pursuing in GTA games is the shock value their cinematic sources are. Anything else is beyond their attention.

You may accuse me of cutting Rockstar slack all you want. I only accuse them of chasing a vision.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 12:43:07 AM by Kairon »
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Offline blackfootsteps

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #170 on: May 07, 2008, 12:39:42 AM »
I don't like the cop escape segments either. I think that once you are outside the circumference of the circle that should be it, stars gone.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #171 on: May 07, 2008, 12:47:20 AM »
Dare I say the annoying cops make it feel like less of a sandbox game then it should.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #172 on: May 07, 2008, 03:59:59 AM »
Yeah, it may be that Rockstar is writing an experience deliberately focused at a... male-dominated audience. Umm... which makes me feel real dumb for discovering something that's seemingly apparent.

So I guess Rockstar isn't for pushing boundaries right? Just boundaries that involve shock value. How surprising.

Not so much any shock value. The only shock value that Rockstar is pursuing in GTA games is the shock value their cinematic sources are. Anything else is beyond their attention.

You may accuse me of cutting Rockstar slack all you want. I only accuse them of chasing a vision.

Wow, do you honestly think Rockstar isn't going for shock value with many of the elements in their GTA games? Rockstar has built a reputation on pushing boundaries in gaming, and not "cinematic" boundaries. How many cinematic sources have the protagonist murdering cops, killing hookers, and hijacking cars by the butt load and running over civilians. Even some of the most brutal crime movies like Scarface didn't go near the levels that the GTA series has went. I hate to say this, but I really don't think you know what you are talking about Kairon. Hate to sound rude but your argument makes zero sense. Rockstar is proud of pushing what is tasteful in gaming, just look at the hoopla over Manhunt 2, most of that game was built around shock value. It is like saying Midway wasn't going for shock value in the Mortal Kombat games, but were trying to achieve some cinematic experience.

It is almost ridiculous that you defend someone like Rockstar for their "cinematic" experience yet the GTA world is really disconnected from the main "mission" or "cinematic" aspect of it. Yeah it includes elements of the city, but overall your actions in the world around you have ZERO impact on the main story. Funny I recall you saying Zelda: TP was disconnected yet you defend one of the most disconnected games around. If Rockstar had such a need to replicate or show homage to these crime movies, the best way to attain that would be through a structured game, that is if their only concern was as you say "shock value their cinematic sources have", then they would be much more straightforward. Obviously this was not their main concern, or they wouldn't take time putting together an open-world where you can do totally contradictory things to the "cinema".

Let's not forget the GTA series was founded on being controversial, you were basically a criminal doing criminal things and you could run over people. In fact when it first came out the main draw to the game was this sort of "shocking" things, more so than the game itself which was average at best. Heck much of the fan base would probably admit much of the content in the GTA series is merely for the "cool" or "shock" value rather than cinematic. You don't hear them say "Hey me driving that Hooker off the bridge to drown reminds me SOOOO much of Scarface", or "Hey murdering that homeless man reminds me of this one scene in the Godfather where the protagonist murders that begger"

Regardless, at least these "creative" people have GTA to release every few years, because their genius doesn't translate to much else besides creating controversial games that suck when you strip it out of them.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 04:21:32 AM by GoldenPhoenix »
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Offline blackfootsteps

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #173 on: May 07, 2008, 04:25:55 AM »
Dare I say the annoying cops make it feel like less of a sandbox game then it should.

Yep, which sucks for someone like me. I can't resist pushing / smacking innocents especially when they either a) get in my way or b) say something as I'm running past. This culminated in me accidentally stabbing Roman and then not being able to pick him up from the hospital coz I was evading the fuzz.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Rockstar has a new game called IV
« Reply #174 on: May 07, 2008, 04:28:20 AM »
Dare I say the annoying cops make it feel like less of a sandbox game then it should.

Yep, which sucks for someone like me. I can't resist pushing / smacking innocents especially when they either a) get in my way or b) say something as I'm running past. This culminated in me accidentally stabbing Roman and then not being able to pick him up from the hospital coz I was evading the fuzz.

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