Topic: I don't like metroid prime. Heres why:

[Nintendo_Pimp]

the reason there is no plot(imo) is because samus is a stone cold killer, unlike thoes other softies like solid snake, she wont think before she shots, if you pit snake and samus, snake would die inn seconds. in conclusion, dont (mess) with SAMUS, shes a emotionless killer

(payd for by the why doesnt nintendo make more metroid games foundtion, a subsidiary of the why doesnt tnintendo make more earthbounnd games foundation)

[Sir Daniel Fortesque]

I think some people are taking this guy's opinion a little bit too hard. Everyone has his own opinion about everything, you got to understand that, that's how this world works, if you don't like it that way, well you could always shut inside a room and never talk to anyone, or you could go live on mars though I doubt anyone could talk to you in there.

[GoldShadow1]

You know, I was thinking, in Metroid Prime 2, they should have a few more RPG elements.  Not that it's going to become Final Fantasy, but it could become a bit more strategic.  You can't change around your equipment using the menu in MP, and that's something I'd like to see change.  You could get minor armor upgrades, for example.  You could also have a system similar to the Badge system in Paper Mario or the Relic system in FFVI - you get special items that do any number of things, but you must choose a limited number of them out of the ones you have.  For example, you could give yourself a extra heat-shield when fighting a giant lava beast, coupled with an item to give a constant stream to your Ice Beam (although overall it'd be the same or less power than the blasts - it'd just be spread out over time).  Or you could have an item to highlight any monsters in the area, etc.  It'd make it more interesting.

[theaveng]

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Originally posted by: BlackGriffen You people who didn't like the story have no imagination. It's a pity that you have to have stories spoon fed to you instead of creating your own. ... Lay off the caffeine, and dare to dream for yourself. It's better that way.

THAT'S a personal attack/insult.  Basically, you insulted anyone who didn't like Metroid Prime as stupid and "lacking imagination".

Attack ideas, not people.

[thecubedcanuck]

Black Griffen

How can you base someones imagination or lack their of on a video game?

Imagination is used in the creation of the game not nessasarily when playing it. Yes, you can become immersed in the game, but this is due to the games elements drawing you in, not your imagination. Games are mainly visual, how does this leave any room for imagination?

For you to say that someone doesnt have an imagination because they dont like a certain game only shows flaws in your own judgement. I dont like prime because I find it brutally boring, plain and simple.

You seem intent on trying to prove how smart you are by using big words and belittleing people, I for one find your actions quite childish.

Its only a game.  

[mouse_clicker]

"THAT'S a personal attack/insult. Basically, you insulted anyone who didn't like Metroid Prime as stupid and "lacking imagination"."

No, it was an attack on people who flew through the game without scanning diddly squat, then said there was no story (like EW). There WAS a story and it was a very imaginative and very good story, but you only got it if you scanned the Pirate Logs and Chozo Lore (which was a very creative way of telling the story instead of through cut scenes). Sure the guy's comment was mean and way off-base, but it IS stupid for people to complain about the story they didn't even take the time to experience.

What *I* love is that everyone is all in support of "it's their opinion, don't bash them", yet some of those same people get really pissed off when the tables are turned. It's THEIR opinion that the story was severely lacking and it was HIS opinion that those people are too lazy and need to have the story fall on them. Why are THEY entitled to an opinion but HE isn't?

[BlackGriffen]

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Originally posted by: theaveng

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Originally posted by: BlackGriffen You people who didn't like the story have no imagination. It's a pity that you have to have stories spoon fed to you instead of creating your own. ... Lay off the caffeine, and dare to dream for yourself. It's better that way.

THAT'S a personal attack/insult.  Basically, you insulted anyone who didn't like Metroid Prime as stupid and "lacking imagination".

Attack ideas, not people.

If you had just said, "I don't like the game," the most I could have said was, "That's nice." Specific critiques of MP were brought up that permitted me to make said judgements about the critiquers. Like I said, I admit that I presented the content in an offensive manner, but the content in and of itself was not an attack.

Say, for instance, a blind man was critiquing Saving Private Ryan as a horrible movie. So much of the power of that movie came from the visuals, that it would be fair to say that a blind man wouldn't "get it" the same way someone who can see can. Is it an insult to say to a blind man, "But you can't see the movie, how can you judge it fairly?" Though the form of my original post was closer to, "What are you, fuckin' blind?" in form. Again, I apologize for using an abbrasive tone, but I stand by the content of what I said.

BlackGriffen

Edit:fixed italics tag.

[BlackGriffen]

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
Black Griffen

How can you base someones imagination or lack their of on a video game?

Imagination is used in the creation of the game not nessasarily when playing it. Yes, you can become immersed in the game, but this is due to the games elements drawing you in, not your imagination. Games are mainly visual, how does this leave any room for imagination?

See, that's where you and I differ. I don't sit around and wait for the game to draw me in. I dive in, actively, and a bad game is one that pushes me out, or that hinders my "freedom of motion" within the universe of the game. See, there are two halves to a game: creating and playing. Both halves require imagination and an active engagement to be truly fulfilling. If you wait for the game to draw you in, you're not playing a game. Drawing you in is something passive entertainments do, like TV and movies. Games should be inviting, but not blatant, and have form without rigidity. The really good ones will also have depth greater than can be accessed passively. That is what Metroid Prime does.

So I hope you can now see why the criticism that the game lacks story can be taken as evidence for a lack of imagination.

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For you to say that someone doesnt have an imagination because they dont like a certain game only shows flaws in your own judgement. I dont like prime because I find it brutally boring, plain and simple.

No, I can point to a lack of imagination based on the specific arguments presented, like I just did above. A good game is like a good book: it reads you at the same time you read it. You can tell a lot about a person just by what they see in art (including video games).

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You seem intent on trying to prove how smart you are by using big words and belittleing people, I for one find your actions quite childish.

Believe it or not, but this is closer to how I talk and think than what I put in my original post. I was trying to be playful, and maybe get a laugh, and I didn't use this formal tone because it is hardly conducive to that. I also do not intend to belittle (except for my rules lawyer comments), I intended to encourage thought, which I obviously failed at doing with my first post.

BlackGriffen

P.S. Please bear in mind that the last sentence is not meant to imply that you don't think, it is meant to point out a failure on my part because of my poor choice in how I expressed my ideas.

[theaveng]

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Originally posted by: BlackGriffenIf you had just said, "I don't like the game," the most I could have said was, "That's nice." Specific critiques of MP were brought up that permitted me to make said judgements about the critiquers. Like I said, I admit that I presented the content in an offensive manner, but the content in and of itself was not an attack.

You argue the critique... you DON'T attack the person.  For example, someone says:
"MP didn't have a story." And you can reply:
"It did have a story.  The story was revealed through the scanner.  Did you forget to scan?" or something similar.

You attack the statement.  You do NOT say, "Your stoopid an' lack imaginashun," like a 5-yr-old.  You argue the FACTS, not attack people.
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Anyway, I originally said I didn't enjoy MP's wandering into a room and then standing around and looking.  I still maintain by that opinion.  I suspect that's why I dislike First-Person Shooters in general.  Wandering around in dark, dismal caves trying to figure out where to go next sucks for me.  I prefer the 2D platforming of Super Metroid or the third-person platforming of Mario.  That's just my own personal preference.

Now, someone responded, "You have to do scanning in Super Metroid" which is a valid point.  But because each room was small, and you could see the entire room with a single glance, it didn't feel like such a chore.  Super Metroid was much faster-paced for me.  (NOTE: That person critiqued my argument... he didn't insult me.  Notice the difference.)

And finally, I commented that MP would have been a *lot* more interesting if there was less text (like a history book...yawn) and more video logs.  I think that would have created a more varied atmosphere and helped bring the Chozo to life.  If you could *see and hear* the Chozo you'd feel more compelled to complete the mission and help them recover their planet.  

[mouse_clicker]

"And finally, I commented that MP would have been a *lot* more interesting if there was less text (like a history book...yawn) and more video logs. I think that would have created a more varied atmosphere and helped bring the Chozo to life. If you could *see and hear* the Chozo you'd feel more compelled to complete the mission and help them recover their planet."

Maybe YOU'D be more compelled, but personally I thought it was eerier having the Chozo civilization on Tallon IV destroyed and all that was left of them being the records of their prophecies left behind. Remember, all the Chozos on the planet ARE dead or have faded into spectres. I liked the idea of Samus being kind of like an archaeologist exploring the ruins of a great race of people. The text fit more in with the notion that this is all that's left of the non-physical portion of the Chozo civlization. It also made you fell really alone, that Samus was the only person there (even when you met the Space Pirates they were few and far between). Really, if you want to "see and hear" the Chozo, picture them in your mind. Metroid Prime leaves much of the details of their race to the imagination. So use that little portion of your brain and *visualize* the Chozos yourself. That's what BlackGriffen meant about you guys not having much imagination, and I'm really starting to think he was right.

[matt oz]

mouseclicker, I just wanted to say that even though you're one of the younger posters on this board (though not much younger than I), you are one of the most intelligent people here, with consistently intelligent posts.  You made a very good point in this thread.

As soon as I see a misspelling, or bad grammar in a message, I stop reading, and I don't think I've ever seen that in one of yours.  So thank you for a breath of fresh air on these normally inane and idiotic boards.


And in case anyone is interested, my opinions on Metroid Prime:
-I think it's like an Oscar movie that not everyone can appreciate (or dare I say get?)
-It's the sort of game, that for me, I need to be in the mood to play.  Back in December, I got stuck in the Phazon Mines, and stopped playing, literally, until 2 weeks ago.  Now I'm on the Omega Pirate, and once again, stuck in the Phazon Mines.
-In order to understand the brilliant and extremely well-written story, one must READ, which seems to be a lost art.  I was never fond of cut scenes, and I think it's ingenious that in 2003, a story in a fully 3-D game is presented fully in text.

[mouse_clicker]

Thank you, matt. I'm kinda surprised you haven't noticed any spelling mistakes in my posts, though- I chicken peck when I type, but I do it REALLY fast (like 120 wpm if I'm into it). I often hit two keys at once or hit one key before the other and often have to go back and change my spelling so it's not atrocious. I usually catch it before I post, but a lot of times I don't.

[BlackGriffen]

In a thread about personal opinions, the person is the arguement. What made my points attack-like was the way I presented them, as I've pointed out. The only personal attack I engaged in was when I implied that you were arrogant for using the term "ad hominem" without knowing what it really meant. There is an important test for whether what someone says is an argumentum ad hominem, "Would this be irrelevent if true?" AaH is a dirty tactic because it distracts from the actual argument taking place, not because it is offensive. AaH is an irrelevent attack, everything I brought up was relevent to the discussion. Just like if a doctor were giving expert testimony, it is not a personal attack if the witness's competance as a doctor is brought up.

Also, I never called you stupid. Unimaginative, only if you claimed MP had no story (which you didn't). Slow on visual uptake, yep. Lacking in attention span, definitely. Over cautious, you betcha. Stupid, no. Arrogant, only after you tore in to me with "childish." Are you saying that someone with the qualities I described is stupid? Because this is hardly the case. Imagination of the sort I described is definitely not a requisite for intelligence. Speed of visual recognition has nothing to do with overall intelligence either (speed of thought in general can be easily compensated for with depth). Lots of people have short attention spans.

Also, cubed-canuk demonstrates why I try (and all too often fail) to speak with a colloqual tone: when I use the words that most naturally come to my mind (as I am now), I get accused of lording it over people.

BlackGriffen  

Edits: Bah, I'm trying to type too damn fast.  

[mouse_clicker]

I know how you feel, Griffen. When I type up a long winded response in a debate, the whole thing comes to me on the fly. I don't sit there and mull it over- the words come to my head and I hit the keys in the corresponding order to put them onto the screen.  Here at PGC I've toned down a bit because I've gotten some flak for how I debate (although when I encounter similar styles, I disregard the irrelevant jabs and focus on what the person is saying), but I debated like that all the time at IGN.

[thecubedcanuck]

black griffen

Are you trying to make me laugh?

You seem to think to can judge a person by their preferance in video games?
When in fact all you are doing is showing flaws in your own fragile charachter.

I dont like Prime, it has nothing to do with attention span, imagination or visual skills.
I simply dont like it. It doesnt appeal to me. I dont play games to read for hours on end. I have a an extensive library if I choose to read.
Metroid just didnt do it for me, in any way, shape or form.

So if you wish to continue to use Metroid Prime as a way to read an individual, to determine their character, or as a tool for any other reason. I say all the power to you, because in the end it doesnt mean jack.
Its only a game, too bad you think it means so much more.

[Naiku]

I'm about half and half on the topic.  I like having lots of things to collect.  That was my insentive to keep playing, I wanted to get every upgrade, every log book entry and everything else, I ended up playing 3-4 times because I kept forgeting the same log book entries .  Anyways I like to collect so exploring to collect was fun though I wish there were a few scenes where there were puzzles and perhaps a little FMV to help you solve them.  The game I know isn't a puzzle game, but for me (I'm more into rpg's though I have played and do enjoy all the Metroid games) I think It would be better if the puzzles made you think a little more.

Of course we know the reason there are no puzzles is because samus can only do three things, roll up into a ball, shoot, and jump (essentially everything else she does is an extension of one of these).  Now that doesn't seem quite right she still has one free hand (the other arm IS a gun of course), and lots of other hi-tech tools they could add.  I think It would be interesting if they included something in the grapling beam to make it work like a tractor beam to bring objects toward you, allowing you to move them to get them out of the way, or some other tools that can be used to solve the puzzles.

Once again I realize this is supposed to be "realistic in the universe Samus lives in" and since she's invading an enemy base the base has to be designed so it's functional to the enemy while trying to keep the "unwanted guests" out.  Of course some of these puzzles could involve getting around wreckage "which you may have caused while fighting an end boss," or special door locks to keep you out that you have do something to break (other than simply get the right weapon and shoot the door, or scan the key pad).  I know this is getting ranty now, and I love the feel of the games, which most of these additions COULD spoil, but I think if they were executed properly they could increase samus's capacity by adding new add-ons for her suit (or fusion suit if it turns out that she keeps that), and add better and more complex puzzles (not that there wern't any good puzzles but for me they simply weren't good enough).

Then of course this game IS about the fighting so maybe puzzles would mess it up?

but what am I talking about this is about the use of story...I think that's unneccessary but story could be implemented better in some instances.  Actually the only videos I care about is when Samus gets an upgrade I think each upgrade should have a short 1 - 2 minute clip that demonstrates her putting this onto her suit, powering it up and testing it for the first time to kinda give you a feel how it works, with a kinda martial arts feel to it...well maybe not but when I say martial arts feel I'm reminded of the very first scene when she makes a diving leap off of her ship to land on the space station.

ok I'm ranting now and most of my ideas were probably bad so I'll stop now (I've said that before haven't I?)

[bamf226]

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Originally posted by: theaveng
And finally, I commented that MP would have been a *lot* more interesting if there was less text (like a history book...yawn) and more video logs.  I think that would have created a more varied atmosphere and helped bring the Chozo to life.  If you could *see and hear* the Chozo you'd feel more compelled to complete the mission and help them recover their planet.

I disagree with this.  By not seeing the Chozo, the player has the opportunity to let his/her imagination run wild.  Were the Chozo humanoid, bug-like, etc.  What did they eat?  Where did they go?  By scanning what they left behind, each player is able to put the pieces together.  Would you say an Indiana Jones game would be less interesting if you had to decipher ancient manuscripts to progress through a game to retrieve an ancient treasure?   Scanning is definitely a great concept in the game to learn more about the world you are on and its history.  

But, I realize that in today's world, everyone is always in a hurry.  They don't have the time to dive into a book, let alone read entries for a video game.  Society in general wants information 2 minutes ago instead of waiting.  

[mouse_clicker]

"You seem to think to can judge a person by their preferance in video games? When in fact all you are doing is showing flaws in your own fragile charachter."

You just proved you're a hypocrite! How can you judge BlackGriffen's character and personality from a judgement he made about someone? If you ask me, that makes YOU just as bad as you're claiming HE is. If you're going to tell people how to act, you might want to act the same way yourself.

[thecubedcanuck]

mouse clicker

I dont know him from a hole in the ground.
He chose to attack people based on their opinion of a stupid video game. IMO anyone who does this this is a tad immature. This is about the game, and about what people think of the game, not each other. To judge someone based on their opinion of something as stupid as a video game is idiotic. I judged him on his comments that were directed at other people, because he brought people and thier personal traits into this conversation, and they clearly do not belong here.
I like NHL hockey 2003, you may like Time splitters, and so and so may like frogger, this is all a matter of taste, and has no relation to anything else what so ever period.
These are games, simple stupid games that are meant to be played for fun and entertainment. To many people treat them like there are life and death issues that can be used to guage ones intelligence, personality or manhood. I find this completely and utterly insane.

[theaveng]

ooooops...

[theaveng]

ooops...

[theaveng]

stupid MSN...

[theaveng]

stupid MSN...

[theaveng]

oooops... where's the delete button?

[theaveng]

BlackGriffen: You insulted people on this forum, and you can't even admit that what you did was wrong.  I truly feel sorry for you.

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Originally posted by: bamf226

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Originally posted by: theaveng
And finally, I commented that MP would have been a *lot* more interesting if there was less text (like a history book...yawn) and more video logs.  I think that would have created a more varied atmosphere and helped bring the Chozo to life.  If you could *see and hear* the Chozo you'd feel more compelled to complete the mission and help them recover their planet.

I disagree with this.  By not seeing the Chozo, the player has the opportunity to let his/her imagination run wild.  

You would have a good point if this was a book, but it isn't.  This is a video game... key word: video.  They should be using videos to tell the story.

Also, why would a technologically advanced society like the Chozos use text?  It makes more sense that they, like us, would use cameras to record important events.  Given that the temple had holographic images jutting out of stone obelisks, it's clear the Chozo had the ability to record video logs rather than inscriptions.

And finally, using videos doesn't eliminate the player's responsibility to piece all the info together.  You still have to piece together all the disjointed videos into a coherent history.  Like I said earlier, there was several Star Trek episodes that used the "piece video logs together to solve the mystery" tactic very effectively.  Metroid Prime could have done the same.

Anyway, in Final Fantasy 7 and Parasite Eve, we see video flashbacks to *very* effectively reveal the past.  In my opinion, Metroid Prime should have done the flashback-style recorded in video logs to bring the past to life.  Like I said at the beginning, this is a video game, not a book, and the creators should take full advantage of that video aspect for maximum impact.
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I think I should end this by saying that I *did enjoy* Metroid Prime... sort of.  As others said, it has beautiful atmosphere with fantastic sound and video... but it lacks the excitement of earlier Super Metroid.  The 3D setting was one reason.  Using old-fashioned text instead of video was the other.