Topic: Agatha Christie you haters!

[Kairon]

Just caught up with the entire thread now and oh boy... when you guys get off topic you really go all the way!

Oh, and for the record, Harry Potter Books are, at least, not drivel. Eragon is.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Just caught up with the entire thread now and oh boy... when you guys get off topic you really go all the way!

Oh, and for the record, Harry Potter Books are, at least, not drivel. Eragon is.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Yep, this is the NWR at its finest. Credit goes to SB, though, since he was the one that ruffled feathers and started the discussion .

And I agree about the HP books. Again, if the movies are any indication, the stories are creative and rock solid. Eragon...I mean, Dragon wars is a MUCH better example since it took off for the sole fact that the author was 16 years old.

If I am not mistaken, it took HP YEARS before it reached popularity. It wasn't like "OMG good book" and everyone bought it. It had to build its popularity.

[Arbok]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Oh, and for the record, Harry Potter Books are, at least, not drivel. Eragon is.

Fully agree. The Harry Potter books won people over based on characters and story; it didn't just randomly become a phenomenon. A lot of Eragon's hype, though, was based around "Oh my god, look at how young this author is!" rather then the story; something that became painfully obvious when Eldest came out and suddenly everyone was kind of indifferent about it, as the author didn't really mature in his craft with age as many people assumed he would.

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Arbok

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Originally posted by: Kairon
Oh, and for the record, Harry Potter Books are, at least, not drivel. Eragon is.

Fully agree. The Harry Potter books won people over based on characters and story; it didn't just randomly become a phenomenon. A lot of Eragon's hype, though, was based around "Oh my god, look at how young this author is!" rather then the story; something that became painfully obvious when Eldest came out and suddenly everyone was kind of indifferent about it, as the author didn't really mature in his craft with age as many people assumed he would.

Hence why the movie flopped while the HP movies get better with each installment. I know that sometimes movie directors alter the content of a book to the point where it isn't like the original one, but if the story is great the movie will also be solid and fun. Like I said, the HP movies have gotten better and better and its because the books themselves have gotten better with time.

Since we are talking about it, SB, why did you say that the HP books were crap? Did you read them, dislike the movies or simply looked at the popularity of the books and came to the conclusion that since it was popular it sucked?

I agree that sometimes popularity doesn't always equal quality, but sometimes you have to give credit where credit its due, despite popularity.

[Smash_Brother]

Actually, it was the movies which I didn't like.

I've never read the books so I can't really say, about them, but the Eragon craze seemed to be entirely built upon the "OMG THE AUTHOR IS SO YOUNG!!!" hype and I'm immensely glad the movie did so poorly.

[Hostile Creation]

Henry James is fantastic.  The Aspern Papers and The Turn of the Screw.  Dense, but worth reading.
We should have a literature thread in the general chat for this sort of discussion

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k So Mario 64 is the Agatha Christie of 3d jump and runs.

Except that Shigeru Miyamoto designed the first games upon which all subsequent 3d jump and runs were based, since he was the first one to introduce the moving screen and platorming concepts.

And which games do you mean that came before Mario 64?

[ShyGuy]

Sega Bugs! Crash Bandicoot maybe?

[IceCold]

Heh. Well, I guess I'll have to chime in here..

Agatha Christie was a good writer. Not an exceptional one, but her books certainly aren't "sh*tty". Shakespeare was a horrible plagiarist - for example, apart from a few plot and character embellishments, he basically copied the entire story of "Othello" from another source. Still, that doesn't make him a bad writer. Good prose distinguishes itself, and Smash, you can't pull out the "opinion card" here. First, you make the "3rd grade reading level" comment, then afterwards to defend your dislike by saying that it's your opinion. It can't be your opinion that she writes at that level. It's either true or not, and in this case, it's definitely false. You may disagree with the style, or the themes, or the viewpoints expressed in the book, but you can't say that something is bad writing when it isn't.

Smash's arguments in this thread are his typical, hyperbolic ones, with a few phrases italicised for emphasis, and a swear or two tossed in, all just to prove a point

If you want someone that deserves every ounce of criticism he gets, it's Dan Brown. I think I've mentioned it here before, but The Da Vinci Code is beyond awful. Even as simple, escapist fiction, the novel fails on all fronts. It honestly reads like something which came straight out of the "C" pile of a high school English class. Not only that, but it's as if the student plagiarised from a history text and inserted the very same words into the dialogue.

Yes, the irony was intentional

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We should have a literature thread in the general chat for this sort of discussion

I made one about books a while back.. I'll go look for it.  

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
Sega Bugs! Crash Bandicoot maybe?

I was thinking he meant Sonic 3D Blast on the Saturn, which wasn't a full 3D game at all but was a fixed camera ordeal.

Mario was, to my knowledge, the first 3D engine which granted the player the ability to move the camera freely to any direction.  

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: IceCold It can't be your opinion that she writes at that level. It's either true or not, and in this case, it's definitely false.

And why not? When I see her books as appropriate reading material for children of that age, then it's perfectly within reason that this is my opinion, just as it is your opinion that she does not write at that level. I read the Hobbit in 3rd grade. I'm sure I could have also handled And Then There Were None, which I read three years later.

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Smash's arguments in this thread are his typical, hyperbolic ones, with a few phrases italicised for emphasis, and a swear or two tossed in, all just to prove a point

Incorrect. As I stated multiple times, my intention was to troll the Christie lovers while simultaneously defending Pap.

Though, I do admit that the one merit to my argument was pointing out that Christie didn't invent the mystery genre or anything else of the sort but rather that she herself admits she was inspired by previous writers to whom she gave ample credit.

But I give you credit for being able to discern my serious arguments from my non-serious ones (even though trolling should be pretty obvious when I do it so bluntly).

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If you want someone that deserves every ounce of criticism he gets, it's Dan Brown. I think I've mentioned it here before, but The Da Vinci Code is beyond awful. Even as simple, escapist fiction, the novel fails on all fronts. It honestly reads like something which came straight out of the "C" pile of a high school English class. Not only that, but it's as if the student plagiarised from a history text and inserted the very same words into the dialogue.

And this is your opinion, which is subject to the same criticisms which you so heavily lay on DB.

I've not read his books, but the DaVinci Code movie was rather good (though I think we have Tom Hanks' mullet to thank for that).

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Yes, the irony was intentional

Shame, because you make a more convincing argument with the italicization.  

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: IceCold It can't be your opinion that she writes at that level. It's either true or not, and in this case, it's definitely false.

And why not? When I see her books as appropriate reading material for children of that age, then it's perfectly within reason that this is my opinion, just as it is your opinion that she does not write at that level. I read the Hobbit in 3rd grade. I'm sure I could have also handled And Then There Were None, which I read three years later.

Because "third grade reading level" is quantifiable.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: PartyBear Because "third grade reading level" is quantifiable.

That would explain why they file her under children's books.

In fact, "The Murder at the Vicarage" and "Murder on the Orient Express" are both listed as being appropriate for ages 4-8.

I admit I was partially mistaken, since children are typically enrolled in 3rd grade at 8-9, Christie's books are, in fact, aimed at a YOUNGER than 3rd grade audience.

So for the record, yes, Agatha Christie is considered suitable for kindergartners.

[Strell]

"Every book is a children's book, if the child can read!"

-Mitch Hedberg

[Smash_Brother]

When Mitch Hedberg buys out Amazon, he can see to it that children have access to all manners of "literature".

But until then, I feel that the recommended ages Amazon and other literature retailers use qualify as not only a guideline for reading difficulty but also for content.

Mitch also has a few other choice quotes for anyone who might have believed he was actually championing literacy.

[Strell]

Dude.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but that was totally meant as a joke.  Any conversation I can insert a Lewis Black or Mitch Hedberg joke is a conversation where such divine will will be done.

Plus, Mitch is dead.  May he rest in peace, man among men that he was.

[Hostile Creation]

I like how Smash Brother is using factual evidence to assert an opinion.

[ShyGuy]

If Majesco sees the length of this thread they are going to think the title is already generating huge buzz. Million seller for sure!

[KDR_11k]

Jumping Flash came before Mario 64.

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
That would explain why they file her under children's books.

In fact, "The Murder at the Vicarage" and "Murder on the Orient Express" are both listed as being appropriate for ages 4-8.

I admit I was partially mistaken, since children are typically enrolled in 3rd grade at 8-9, Christie's books are, in fact, aimed at a YOUNGER than 3rd grade audience.

So for the record, yes, Agatha Christie is considered suitable for kindergartners.

Her books are for kids in the same way Nintendo's games are, i.e. they're for everyone.  Popular writing -- that is, writing intended to be enjoyed by most people -- is usually written at no higher than a third grade level.  Even if we assume that most adults read at a higher level than that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that were false, why limit your audience to people cognizant of unorthodox locutions?

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Strell I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but that was totally meant as a joke.  Any conversation I can insert a Lewis Black or Mitch Hedberg joke is a conversation where such divine will will be done.

Show some Eddie Izzard love and we'll talk.

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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
I like how Smash Brother is using factual evidence to assert an opinion.

I honestly didn't intend to, but if someone is going to refute my opinions with facts, I am inclined to do the same.

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Originally posted by: ShyGuy
If Majesco sees the length of this thread they are going to think the title is already generating huge buzz. Million seller for sure!

Hey, I aim to please.

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Jumping Flash came before Mario 64.

That would matter, except Mario 64 was in development long before Jumping Flash ever hit the market:

The development of Super Mario 64 took less than two years, but producer/director Shigeru Miyamoto had conceived of a 3D Mario game over five years before, while working on Star Fox. Miyamoto developed most of the concepts during the era of the SNES and considered making it an SNES game (making use of the Super FX chip), but decided to develop it for the Nintendo 64 due to the earlier system's technical limitations.

Mario 64 was released just a year and a month after Jumping Flash, which didn't feature the dynamic camera or the full 3D world like Mario 64.

This is not comparable to Christie's works, as she had over 20 years between her influence by Doyle and the creation of her novels.

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Originally posted by: PartyBear Her books are for kids in the same way Nintendo's games are, i.e. they're for everyone.  Popular writing -- that is, writing intended to be enjoyed by most people -- is usually written at no higher than a third grade level.  Even if we assume that most adults read at a higher level than that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that were false, why limit your audience to people cognizant of unorthodox locutions?

Then we agree that the 3rd grade reading level recommendation is, in fact, subjective, which is what I've been saying the whole time.

It HAS to be subjective because I've seen 3rd graders who read at an 8th grade reading level and I've seen other 3rd graders who read at a 1st grade level. There are certain 3rd graders to whom I'd hand a Poe book to without concern while others would be scarred for life by it.

[UltimatePartyBear]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Then we agree that the 3rd grade reading level recommendation is, in fact, subjective, which is what I've been saying the whole time.

It HAS to be subjective because I've seen 3rd graders who read at an 8th grade reading level and I've seen other 3rd graders who read at a 1st grade level. There are certain 3rd graders to whom I'd hand a Poe book to without concern while others would be scarred for life by it.

To some extent, it's subjective.  It isn't like it's a hard scientific fact that third graders can't read sentences with five-syllable words.  On the other hand, the rating is derived from statistical analysis of the reading abilities of different age groups, so when something is said to be written at a third grade level, it's reasonable to claim that the majority of people with at least a third grade education can read it without difficulty.  That's all it means.

I was reading at an 8th grade level in third grade, and at college level in 8th grade, but the fact that they could measure that suggests that it has some basis in fact.  It's also good to know that if I had been lagging behind instead of excelling, they could have found out about it and helped me, which is probably the best use of reading level ratings there is.

[Smash_Brother]

Yeah, I had the same deal going (8th grade level in 4th, I think).

I started my assault in this thread with the intention of striking back at a few of the folks who had jumped all over Pap for not knowing who Christie was. If someone doesn't know, it's immensely easy to post a link to Wikipedia with her page rather than verbally assail the person (and attacking someone because they are unknowing of something is a basic form of hermit crabbing).

Christie is appropriate by scientific and content standards for children age 4+. However, that's not to say she can ONLY be enjoyed by people of that age (I was wrong to say that she was "aimed" at that audience).

In fact, the reason why Christie has sold so many books is because of her broad age appeal. That's why her books have sold so much more heavily than her predecessors from whom she claims inspiration.

The subjective nature of reading levels will always be the case, however. It depends entirely upon the child in question, not only for difficulty but content. Some kids can handle concepts and ideas that others cannot yet. Some with an overactive imagination shouldn't be allowed to read an author like, say, Poe because some of the imagery may scar them for life.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Well, obviously reading levels aren't based on content, but on readability.  When you start getting into the matter of what's appropriate for children, you get into thorny issues.

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I started my assault in this thread with the intention of striking back at a few of the folks who had jumped all over Pap for not knowing who Christie was. If someone doesn't know, it's immensely easy to post a link to Wikipedia with her page rather than verbally assail the person

True, but on the other hand, it's easy enough to google things for yourself if you don't know instead of sidetracking entire threads by asking a simple question.  

[Smash_Brother]

True, but when I ask a question here on these forums, the intention is to hear what people have to say on the subject. "Who is Agatha Christie?" is a question which would be answered differently by different sources, Wiki included.

In this case, Pap got enraged sources who preferred to do a bit of crabbin' than give a straight answer.