Topic: REVIEWS: Sonic and the Secret Rings

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

TP 8.7

Gamespot was right afterall.

[Koekoenutt]

I did forget to mention a few things I meant to bring up. I was wondering if people had problems when they hit the brake button, and come to a complete stop, that sometimes Sonic would stear to the right/left a lot and end up hitting something, even when your controller was barely tilting a direction, if at all? I found this also to be an issue on later missions where precision is an absolute must. Also, I find it impossible for anyone to get gold coins in every mission. Some missions I was surpised to get a silver/bronze.. and some I was surpised I didn't get anything at all or just bronze. I have one gold, but I haven't gone back to missions I have cleared, instead I have beentrying to get the game done so I can trade it in for another Wii game. Just don't think it is a keeper.

Also, I did think the reviewer, based on his scoring.. was harsh. I would definately rate this game higher than a 5, but like GoldenPhoenix.. I wouldn't rate it anything higher than 7. Putting 3.5 in gameplay was really low scoring, becuase as much as I complain, I still find it enjoyable enough to at least finish. Then again, I'm also the type of person who hates putting a game half way down and not finishing it.  

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: wandering
The problem is Nintendo fans.

It's funny: I almost raised this point, except from a completely different angle.

Nintendo fans are spoiled rotten by most games today. Take TP or Mario 64, for example: it is IMMENSELY hard to die in these games. The focus of the game is adventuring with little to no chance of death.

Guess what? Sonic team TRIED adventuring and people b*tched up a storm that "Sonic is all about speed!", so they give us a game where the entire focus is trying to surmount obstacles while moving at breakneck speeds where one wrong move can equate death and people get up in arms about the game and how it's "frustrating", "too hard", etc. etc.

God forbid, we Nintendo fans actually sit down to a game in which we die and KEEP dying until we, oh I dunno, GET BETTER AT IT?! How feeble have we as gamers become when we become offended when a game is difficult to the point that we don't plow through it without any trace of difficulty?

NSMB was easy as hell, TP was a cake walk and Nintendo fans actually pissed and moaned that Mario SUNSHINE was too hard. Huh?

Now, we have a game which has a learning curve to the control, but rather than taking a hit and simply losing some easily-recovered life when you f*ck up, you die. OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!11!!!11!!!!!!1!

But to make the whiners look even worse, Sonic doesn't even HAVE lives!!! He just starts again 20 feet back from where you died, not forcing these whiners to even start the level over most of the time.

I have no problem with this control scheme, once I learned it. When I figured out the rhythm of steering Sonic, homing attacks, jump timing and jump canceling, it rapidly became second nature.

How did we forget the glory days of the 16-bit era where players didn't blame the GAME when they sucked at it but tried harder until they got it right?  

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: wandering
The problem is Nintendo fans.

It's funny: I almost raised this point, except from a completely different angle.

Nintendo fans are spoiled rotten by most games today. Take TP or Mario 64, for example: it is IMMENSELY hard to die in these games. The focus of the game is adventuring with little to no chance of death.

Guess what? Sonic team TRIED adventuring and people b*tched up a storm that "Sonic is all about speed!", so they give us a game where the entire focus is trying to surmount obstacles while moving at breakneck speeds where one wrong move can equate death and people get up in arms about the game and how it's "frustrating", "too hard", etc. etc.

God forbid, we Nintendo fans actually sit down to a game in which we die and KEEP dying until we, oh I dunno, GET BETTER AT IT?! How feeble have we as gamers become when we become offended when a game is difficult to the point that we don't plow through it without any trace of difficulty?

NSMB was easy as hell, TP was a cake walk and Nintendo fans actually pissed and moaned that Mario SUNSHINE was too hard. Huh?

Now, we have a game which has a learning curve to the control, but rather than taking a hit and simply losing some easily-recovered life when you f*ck up, you die. OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!11!!!11!!!!!!1!

But to make the whiners look even worse, Sonic doesn't even HAVE lives!!! He just starts again 20 feet back from where you died, not forcing these whiners to even start the level over most of the time.

I have no problem with this control scheme, once I learned it. When I figured out the rhythm of steering Sonic, homing attacks, jump timing and jump canceling, it rapidly became second nature.

How did we forget the glory days of the 16-bit era where players didn't blame the GAME when they sucked at it but tried harder until they got it right?

All that may be true about games being easier, but Sonic is hard because it has some poorly designed levels and clunky controls. A game can be challenging and be well designed, sadly Sonic SR misses the well designed part by a mile in places.

[Jessicagirl]

It seems as though this review got called out. I am going to have to disagree with it as well. I don't like how people compare games to the "good old days" when these people seem to lack knowledge about what those "good old days" were about. Though looking at Gamerankings.com, it is clear that the opinions held in this review are not agreed upon by the vast majority of reviewers or gamers. This is one of those reviews that can be safely ignored.

Reminds me why I don't come to this sight nearly as much as I used to.

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Jessicagirl
It seems as though this review got called out. I am going to have to disagree with it as well. I don't like how people compare games to the "good old days" when these people seem to lack knowledge about what those "good old days" were about. Though looking at Gamerankings.com, it is clear that the opinions held in this review are not agreed upon by the vast majority of reviewers or gamers. This is one of those reviews that can be safely ignored.

Reminds me why I don't come to this sight nearly as much as I used to.

Good ole days were hampered by poor balance and level design, so I think it is fair to compare this game to the "good ole" days in that aspect.  

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix All that may be true about games being easier, but Sonic is hard because it has some poorly designed levels and clunky controls. A game can be challenging and be well designed, sadly Sonic SR misses the well designed part by a mile in places.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out how much better I did once I got the rhythm of the game down pat?

And I just don't see what's so wrong with the level designs. Yeah, they're at their best when you're moving through them at incredible speeds, but I'm just finishing up the remaining missions to unlock the last world now and the ONLY level design I didn't like was the one which forced you to press buttons to collect 10 rings. Everything else was fine.

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix Good ole days were hampered by poor balance and level design, so I think it is fair to compare this game to the "good ole" days in that aspect.

No, the "good ole days" were bolstered by undaunted players who wouldn't declare a game "too hard" and "frustrating" when it called for them to practice and get better at it.

I find it ironic that a lot of the VC games NWR posts as "safe for everyone" were, in fact, ridiculously hard and, had people no memory of playing them when they were young and the fun they had with them, would very likely rake them across the coals for "poor level design", "balance" and "bad controls".

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Watch out, Smash, it's those same difficult games that scared away casual gamers from Nintendo all this time!

Nintendo's working VERY HARD to eliminate traditional play and bring all those gamers back with zero-pressure, no-surprises, patient, non-trial & error non-gameplay!

We've got to get with the times!

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix All that may be true about games being easier, but Sonic is hard because it has some poorly designed levels and clunky controls. A game can be challenging and be well designed, sadly Sonic SR misses the well designed part by a mile in places.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out how much better I did once I got the rhythm of the game down pat?

And I just don't see what's so wrong with the level designs. Yeah, they're at their best when you're moving through them at incredible speeds, but I'm just finishing up the remaining missions to unlock the last world now and the ONLY level design I didn't like was the one which forced you to press buttons to collect 10 rings. Everything else was fine.

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix Good ole days were hampered by poor balance and level design, so I think it is fair to compare this game to the "good ole" days in that aspect.

No, the "good ole days" were bolstered by undaunted players who wouldn't declare a game "too hard" and "frustrating" when it called for them to practice and get better at it.

I find it ironic that a lot of the VC games NWR posts as "safe for everyone" were, in fact, ridiculously hard and, had people no memory of playing them when they were young and the fun they had with them, would very likely rake them across the coals for "poor level design", "balance" and "bad controls".

And they would be right to rake them accross the coals for being poorly designed, personally many of the games they recommended for everyone I seriously disagreed with (Kid Icarus, Zelda, and even Bonk to a certain degree). In regards to Sonic, the controls are still clunky, obstacles seem randomly placed (Dino land being the biggest example of this), and it has some the dumbest missions around that slow the game down (Collecting things like the eggs were stupidity at its finest, it wasn't fun. The same applies to collecting coins, or ridiculous challenges like "Don't break the vases". If you were going to have diversionary missions they should have been additional to the game, not part of the story mode which is severely hurt pace wise by the missions. The game should have focused on what Sonic does best, blazing through a wide variety of levels.

[Koekoenutt]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

But to make the whiners look even worse, Sonic doesn't even HAVE lives!!! He just starts again 20 feet back from where you died, not forcing these whiners to even start the level over most of the time.

I have no problem with this control scheme, once I learned it. When I figured out the rhythm of steering Sonic, homing attacks, jump timing and jump canceling, it rapidly became second nature.

This is where I disagree. On the levels that are tedious and longer, they have waypoints from about 20-60 feet back from where you died. A lot of levels also started you off from the beginning though, and I found this to be annoying on the levels that it did change from this aspect. I bet you still slip on the controls very often, even though you have learned the controls. The controls are down to a habit for me, but this game requires the most precise controls, and sometimes it just doesn't deliver as well as it really could have. The controls work, I agree.. but to just throw off the idea that the controls could have been way more thought out and intuitive, I think is being stubborn. To say that you haven't gotten made at some type of feat in the game that you had to over come, all becuase you slipped on the controls.. is crazy to me.

I enjoyed Mario Sunshine a lot, I still own it to this day and never traded it in. Hell, I traded in Wind Waker becuase I had no money and wanted to buy new games, and I loved that game. I love a challenge. I bought Gradius from the VC Channel, becuase it's a challenge. Hell, the game intro video shows the player CHEATING in the demo. Same reason I bought R-Type, for the extreme challenge it gives you. I love playing Contra 3 at least three times a week becuase beating it on hard difficulty gives me a sense of accomplishment. The sameway Mario Sunshine gives me. Sonic to me, Isn't really that hard. Some of the missions really do peak immensely from other missions, but the way the levels are designed are just frustrating. The way things come at you, and where things are placed. Some of the worlds are really thought out and done nicely. It's challenging but you can still go threw the level and seem to have a rythme and flow to it. Monster placement in just the right areas to get to another part of the level you couldn't reach. There are really song strong missions and levels in this game, but then you get to the ones that are just poorly thought about and seemed slapped on to make the game longer. The game has a lot of content to unlock, sure.. but it's damn repeative and frustrating for something so little. Find the Fire Rings is enjoyable and a challenge.. Making me go threw a whole level just so the end can screw me becuase they wanted to put a ridiculous amount of coins right at the end of a No Coin mission is stupid. Putting in boxes with pearls in them on a no pearl mission, where it's almost a habit and reflex to automatically do that, let alone easy to slip up and do, is poor level design. Some missions it seems like they TRY and piss you off, and not trying to make it hard creatively.

I think it's kind of rude to call me a whiner about the game, becuase it could obviously be worked on a hell of out more. They tried so hard to impress people, that I think they looked passed a lot of things. Anyways, It's just my opinion and review, and I personally don't think calling out the negatives of the game that really bring it down, that I should be called a whiner. I disagree with the scoring, but the review itself handled it pretty well on the negatives. Even with all the reviews on Meta-critic, Almost every review has said something about the controls being clunky, even after power-ups. So, Obviously I'm not the only one who has slipped up a lot and got frustrated, and the controls aren't exactly perfect. I also loved Excite Truck and is one of those keepers that I have for the Wii. So unlike GoldenPhoenix, I like the tilt and turn controls.  

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Watch out, Smash, it's those same difficult games that scared away casual gamers from Nintendo all this time!

Nintendo's working VERY HARD to eliminate traditional play and bring all those gamers back with zero-pressure, no-surprises, patient, non-trial & error non-gameplay!

We've got to get with the times!

Who says there can't be a market for both hardcore and casual games? The casual games may be eating Japan, yes, but the hardcore games have also been selling like crazy. And as of now, the best selling games across the globe are the games fans can't get enough of.

Technically, this debacle has been going on WAY before the casual games reared their heads. It was during the N64/PSone era where games started to drop more hints, give you more lives and started playing fair. A friend of mine was constantly saying how today's gamers are soft and that games are too easy. At first I thought he was being an old fart, but now that I look deeper he is right.

As for the Secret rings argument, I think we all have learned that sometimes the value of a game lies in the eyes of the gamer.

Its obvious that many gamers loved or truly enjoyed SR, flaws and all, while gamers like Evan and Golden couldn't comprehend the game's appeal and called it the worse. Its a love/hate game. That we can all agree on.

However, what TRULY annoys the hell out of this argument is how the gamers that hated SR keep bashing or ridiculing either the game or the fans that enjoyed simply because it didn't meet THEIR standards.

I'm sick and tired of the "Nintendo fans like crappy games because they are desperate" argument.  I'm sick and tired of the sarcasm used when talking about the game.

Yes, you didn't like the game. Too bad. Now MOVE ON and let the people that enjoyed the game keep enjoying it.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I personally think Sega added in the waypoints to help cover the stupid challenges, and maybe even the level design. One other area I have a big gripe about Sonic is that it does nothing useful in the way of innovating gameplay, a nunchuck for control and the wiimote for unique gameplay utilizing the pointer or even some motions would have been much preferable, then again it is easier to throw in tilt controls and not worry about much innovation beyond that.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Pap have you even played the game yet?

[Koekoenutt]

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Originally posted by: pap64

As for the Secret rings argument, I think we all have learned that sometimes the value of a game lies in the eyes of the gamer.

Its obvious that many gamers loved or truly enjoyed SR, flaws and all, while gamers like Evan and Golden couldn't comprehend the game's appeal and called it the worse. Its a love/hate game. That we can all agree on.

That is something we can all agree on. =D

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Pap have you even played the game yet?

I personally haven't played it yet, so I can't talk about the game itself.

I'm mainly talking about how each camp has handled this very poorly and I simply don't like the sarcasm used. Like I said, I HATE how whenever SR is brought up someone says "It's sad how Nintendo fans are so starved for games they embrace bad ones".

It's OK if you didn't like the game, and its OK if you liked it. I'm simply saying that there's no need to antagonize each other. After all, when me and S_B criticized Elebits, we didn't antagonize anyone that liked it, and giving it a fair review and said that the game is worth a rent at least since it is one of those games that some will love, others will hate.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It's confirmed that Smash doesn't like constantly digging for things, or backtracking.

[trip1eX]

Yeah it's not that the game is hard.  IT's just frustrating  because of  poor game design.   There's alot of unnecesary repetition because the game doesn't play fair with the player.    And the game doesn't seem very consistent either.  The game often feels awkward and it often plays itself.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: pap64

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Pap have you even played the game yet?

I personally haven't played it yet, so I can't talk about the game itself.

I'm mainly talking about how each camp has handled this very poorly and I simply don't like the sarcasm used. Like I said, I HATE how whenever SR is brought up someone says "It's sad how Nintendo fans are so starved for games they embrace bad ones".

It's OK if you didn't like the game, and its OK if you liked it. I'm simply saying that there's no need to antagonize each other. After all, when me and S_B criticized Elebits, we didn't antagonize anyone that liked it, and giving it a fair review and said that the game is worth a rent at least since it is one of those games that some will love, others will hate.

Ah but the only difference is that Elebits was a great, polished game, and Sonic and the Secret Rings isn't. j/k

[Jonnyboy117]

It's very telling that about half the people in this thread agree with the review, and the other half disagree.  It's a polarizing game.  Evan knew that his review would be one of the harshest yet published, and he is trying to find another staff member to write a second opinion (who knows whether it will be any more positive).  I hope that happens.  Regardless, just because Evan's review doesn't jive with the average on GameRankings doesn't mean it is less valid than all those others.  That's one of the pitfalls of GameRankings; it leads you to make statistical assumptions on non-scientific data sets.  An outlier is not necessarily less accurate than the data within standard deviation.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Pretendoes what SAYdont. And this review has poor level design!

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think I should be made a staff member and give a second opinion!

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

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Originally posted by: pap64

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Pap have you even played the game yet?

I personally haven't played it yet, so I can't talk about the game itself.

I'm mainly talking about how each camp has handled this very poorly and I simply don't like the sarcasm used. Like I said, I HATE how whenever SR is brought up someone says "It's sad how Nintendo fans are so starved for games they embrace bad ones".

It's OK if you didn't like the game, and its OK if you liked it. I'm simply saying that there's no need to antagonize each other. After all, when me and S_B criticized Elebits, we didn't antagonize anyone that liked it, and giving it a fair review and said that the game is worth a rent at least since it is one of those games that some will love, others will hate.

Ah but the only difference is that Elebits was a great, polished game, and Sonic and the Secret Rings isn't. j/k

Elebits wasn't that polished as it suffered from launch-itis.

Here's the stuff I found while playing SB's copy:
The game slows down greatly when too much stuff is going on
The game jumps between 60 FPS and 30 FPS, sometimes less due to the slowdown
Controls (especially for movement) are somewhat slow
Your character gets stuck every once in a while
The voice acting is terrible

My main gripe with the game was that it was too long and it got tedious after a while. They should have taken a cue from Katamary Damacy and stopped at 10 or 15 levels.

[ShyGuy]

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Regardless, just because Evan's review doesn't jive with the average on GameRankings doesn't mean it is less valid than all those others.

The review is less valid because of Evan's penchant for melodrama and hyperbole.

[Khushrenada]

Svevan himself admitted the review was just to cause a flame war not to mention the fact it has been exposed as part of a further ploy in a game of politics on the board.

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I think I should be made a staff member and give a second opinion!

No, they can't have a staff member give Elebits a 12 out of 10 without the site looking bad.

Though, I should point out that I gave Elebits a 7.5 in my review and Evan gave it a 6.

Now its YOUR turn to agree with him, I guess.