Topic: The OFFICIAL Big N rumor thread *bring your own salt*

[BlackNMild2k1]

I was referring to the minimum cart order cost and they have that practice to this day as far as I know.

They even have a minimum sales before the dev sees money back on WiiWare

As far as everything else, if Nintendo is producing it, then they have to charge for it and it will always be more expensive that a disc. That is the whole basis of the argument. Everything else is supporting that.

[Adrock]

I guess we're not done with this then.

If they have that policy in place, still no one has complained. That's my point. It's clearly not a problem for them. Even the 3rd parties that released games on N64, still complained about Nintendo's policies. They supported the console, albeit poorly, yet still voiced their displeasure. This has happened on many systems, both past and present, market leader or not.

Of course, cards costs more. I never said that they didn't. I said that the price discrepancy was shrinking which you also acknowledged. I'm not disputing that 3rd parties may prefer discs because discs are cheaper (they probably do). Rather, employing cards is not necessarily a dealbreaker. The bottomline is if 3rd parties feel they can make money on Cafe, they'll support it, regardless of storage format). Simple as that. That said, if 3rd parties told Nintendo, "Blu Ray or GTFO" (perhaps even citing cost as a reason) and Nintendo went with cards anyway, I would absolutely think that was utterly stupid. In that instance, Nintendo would have just relinquished support by being boneheaded. I just can't imagine it going down that way. Nintendo needs to build them a system worth supporting, part of that is ensuring that it can be a port machine, at least initially. As long as Nintendo doesn't do anything silly, they should be fine.

[MegaByte]

Actually, they have complained. Here's an example: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408920

[Adrock]

I stand corrected then (though strange that it took nearly 6 years to come up, as that link is dated 2010... seems like a more serious issue that should have been brought up sooner). Point remains that despite criticism, 3rd parties have still supported hardware if they found it to be profitable. Mind you, I'm not trying to weasel out of being wrong about 3rd parties complaining about Nintendo handling of DS cards. On that point, I concede. I still don't think it's a dealbreaker unless 3rd parties make it one and refuse support if Nintendo chooses cards (or, really, anything that 3rd parties are vehemently against). Nintendo still has the responsibility of making a quality console that benefits everyone.

I wonder if Nintendo is just lackadaisical on the process or if it really takes that long. If they aren't treating it with urgency, they really should if they want to improve 3rd party relations. Just because they're the market leader, doesn't mean their partners don't deserve respect. Nintendo should know that more than any company. Iwata has been talking a lot lately about improving 3rd party relations, I certainly hope this is something they do.

[Kytim89]

If you want a return to cartridge gaming, I have an idea that might satisfy this urge. Suppose that Nintendo allowed you to store your Virtual Console games on your Wii 2 that has SD card support. The game is stored and played off of said card. Now, save each individual game file to its own single SD card and then some third party company can provide a sticker with the game logo on it so that I can now have small cartridge games with modern technology. For example, say that Gamecube finds its way onto VC and you download Wind Waker onto an SD card with the logo of the game. Would anyone like to do this?

[Lithium]

Would anyone like to do this?

not really. as for the whole sd cartridge vrs discs I'd say we'd have to wait about 1 or 2 more generations for them to be super cheap and have lots of storage for the idea to work, Nintendo also has to drop those old school policies. Seriously though, by then downloadable games (like steam) will be all the rage.

[Kytim89]

Would anyone like to do this?

not really. as for the whole sd cartridge vrs discs I'd say we'd have to wait about 1 or 2 more generations for them to be super cheap and have lots of storage for the idea to work, Nintendo also has to drop those old school policies. Seriously though, by then downloadable games (like steam) will be all the rage.

The average VC title is in the tens of megabytes, so all you would have to do is find a small SD card in the average range of said file sizes and the price would be negligable. The most you would have to have is one GB SD card for Gamecube games and most of those titles are not even that big. This could work if it was done right.

[Lithium]

the price point issue wasnt regarding your point but rather the other ongoing argument that's hapening in this thread.
as far as your suggestion goes it seems kind of impractical the size of the files arent that big and it's simply more convientent to have them on the onboard storage. I guess if you're nostalgic for cartridges fine but its kind of a waste of money to have to buy all those extra SD cards just to put one game on it, anyways if you were to do that there are ebay sellers that stock empty game cases for DS and you can print your own boxart if you want to. It's basically what i did with my wiisports game sleeve

[Kytim89]

the price point issue wasnt regarding your point but rather the other ongoing argument that's hapening in this thread.
as far as your suggestion goes it seems kind of impractical the size of the files arent that big and it's simply more convientent to have them on the onboard storage. I guess if you're nostalgic for cartridges fine but its kind of a waste of money to have to buy all those extra SD cards just to put one game on it, anyways if you were to do that there are ebay sellers that stock empty game cases for DS and you can print your own boxart if you want to. It's basically what i did with my wiisports game sleeve

Some of the people on this forum want to return to cartridges, and rightfully so, but all I am doing is pointing out a simple, or some what obscure, way of returning to cartridges for the next console generation. Also, having a single game on a card that is too small to hold a few modern day music files may seem wasteful, but it something that I would do if given the chance.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Actually, they have complained. Here's an example: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408920

Thanx for providing that link. I knew I read that stuff somewhere before and couldn't remember where. I read so much stuff that it's hard to remember where it all originated.
And I also have to admit that that debate was so spread out that I often forgot what the original debate was really even about and the original point I was trying to make since I've been so distracted with other stuff.

[Adrock]

Kytim, I think most of us agree that games would benefit from a switch to solid state media. It's faster, more durable etc etc. The major disconnect was whether the switch would make sense from a business standpoint and alienate 3rd parties. There's evidence supporting both sides. I think it could work, BlackNMild2k1 disagreed.

This was brought up because I said that switching seems like something Nintendo would do in response to the 25GB disc Kotaku rumor, as opposed to switching being something should or even will do. That was just an observation. I'm not itching for a return to cards because I'm an "anti-discite" or anything. I take great care of my games and movies. I understand the benefits of optical media. In terms of the end product, however, solid state memory provides a better user experience. If pressed, I'll debate the merits of its value, but I'll take good games any way I can get it. I'm not a fan of digital downloads but I still bought Shantae on DSi because it's the shizzle and I want to support great, passionate teams like WayForward Technologies. That said, while I support the use of cards, discs don't inherently bother me.

[Stogi]

If Nintendo switched to cards, I bet the first complaint you would hear is that they are too easy to lose.

[Chozo Ghost]

That doesn't mean the Wii 2 can't see a NEW game in the Mass Effect series that tells a different story

So we end up getting some casual on rails side story crap like Umbrella Chronicles or Dead Space Extraction while every other console gets the real stuff? Geezus Christ!

[Ceric]

I'm sure that 3-4 weeks lead time is artificial for the most part.  Nintendo would want to keep their assembly lines fully humming all year so that lets them play to move it around especially if they require X amount.  Nintendo could have a very good reason to require X, like they want to have enough for every major retailer to have.  I find with these types of things that the best way to handle them if you have an insistent on X number is to explain why and answer questions.  Something Nintendo isn't very good at.

Also on the losing car side of things.  For a console I probably make it Bigger so I don't have to use the small flash module but the less expensive big ones.  I personally think they be the size of CD but square.

[Adrock]

@The Unagi - Yeah, probably even if those same people were capable of keeping track portable cartridges since 1989 as well as SD cards and other memory card types.

@Ceric - I kind of feel like that's too big. I imagined something like half the size of a credit card or something slightly bigger than a DS card so idiots couldn't ram it into a DS/3DS thinking it's the same thing. That probably wouldn't stop them from trying. I guess if it was the same size, a message could always pop up asking to insert a proper card.

[Chozo Ghost]

Hopefully Nintendo will keep their profit margin on the hardware itself much thinner than they did with the Wii. I understand if they don't want to sell for a loss and I'm not saying they should, but they should aim for just breaking even on the hardware or only make a few dollars of profit on it. They shouldn't be making $50-$100 profit off it like they did on the Wii. $5-$10 profit would be more appropriate, in my opinion.

I want them to profit and be successful, but that should be achieved from the games; not from the hardware.

[Ceric]

@The Unagi - Yeah, probably even if those same people were capable of keeping track portable cartridges since 1989 as well as SD cards and other memory card types.

@Ceric - I kind of feel like that's too big. I imagined something like half the size of a credit card or something slightly bigger than a DS card so idiots couldn't ram it into a DS/3DS thinking it's the same thing. That probably wouldn't stop them from trying. I guess if it was the same size, a message could always pop up asking to insert a proper card.

A Virtual Boy Cart?

[BlackNMild2k1]

MS to steal Nintendo's thunder @ E3?

Remember that comment I mentioned from some AMD worker about a console he was working on from the current fusion line and how they were ordered to pull in their schedule from end of 2012 to sooner...

March 2011:
-AMD working on CPU/GPU combined chip for console due for release @ end of 2012; Told to bring schedule in for earlier release

New MS system could steal Wii 2’s thunder with shock E3 reveal
http://www.develop-online.net/news/37618/Develop-source-New-Xbox-console-on-desks-at-EA

The successor to the Xbox 360 console is on desks at an unnamed Electronic Arts studio, Develop understands.

The new hardware, sent to EA last month, is a very early build with no casing – it is in fact being stored inside a PC shell.

EA developers are getting to grips with the tech to create first-generation software, Develop has been told.

“Quite often when new consoles come around they’re packaged into a PC shell, but actually what’s inside is an entirely new console,” a senior, trusted, well-placed source said.

Microsoft has declined to comment. EA has declined to comment. Develop’s source is not employed at either company.

The source believed, but did not have certain information, that the new Xbox would launch by the end of 2012. The individual expects an announcement will be made, at least in some form, at E3.

Nintendo better be packing a powerhouse GPU because they may not be the only one with a new console next year.

[Chozo Ghost]

If Microsoft has a new console due for release next year then that one rumor about the Cafe being on par with the 360 had better be false, because a new Nintendo console which is only as powerful as a last gen console from 2005 just isn't going to cut it.

[Ceric]

This could actually be good news for Nintendo.  MS will have to get a lot locked in soon for a 2012 release so if Cafe is much beefier then everyone thinks they may still come out ahead.  Compared to going first normally and guaranteeing being last by the end.

[Adrock]

That might be bad for Microsoft. 360 is doing really well right now. They're the lead platform the vast majority of multiplatform ganmes with no signs of that changing. Why rush into new hardware?

Also, if Nintendo's controller is anywhere near as crazy innovative as rumors suggest, Microsoft may not have time to counter. Of course, it's possible they could innovate as well, but let's be honest here, probably not. The most I'd expect from MS is a better version of Kinect and more powerful hardware.

[Ian Sane]

That might be bad for Microsoft. 360 is doing really well right now. They're the lead platform the vast majority of multiplatform ganmes with no signs of that changing. Why rush into new hardware?

Well people always say the same about the Wii.  "Why should they release a new system when the Wii is the most successful console in the universe?"  Eventually you have to move up.  Though I think this would be premature it does make a little more sense than if Sony did it.
 
I am quite shocked if it happens.  I figured Nintendo would get a few years before the competition introduced successors.  Now I am legitimately fearful about the Cafe's future.  This was Nintendo's chance to "catch up" in terms of hardware.  But I figured Nintendo, being Nintendo, was not going to do a good job of that.  They would catch up somewhat by fluke because the other systems were not coming out any time soon and just by being very conventional Nintendo was going to at least match the PS3.  But I never figured Nintendo was interested in being cutting edge.  So now I figure MS will leapfrog them because Nintendo is going to be conservative.  And then regardless of whatever casual-focused screen gimmick Nintendo is peddling, we're in the same boat where they're a generation behind and get left in the dust regarding third party support.
 
Nintendo has to not be short-sighted here in the slightest.  They have to have had this thing ready to compete not just with the Xbox 360 and PS3 but the inevitable 720 and PS4.  They have to have been thinking specifically about what sort of console MS or Sony could release in 2015 or so and whether or not Cafe could compete with it.
 
The only thing that might work is that technology has hit such a ceiling that third parties don't think the difference is enough to make Xbox 720 games that use so much of the extra power that a Cafe port is not possible.

[broodwars]

That doesn't mean the Wii 2 can't see a NEW game in the Mass Effect series that tells a different story

So we end up getting some casual on rails side story crap like Umbrella Chronicles or Dead Space Extraction while every other console gets the real stuff? Geezus Christ!

First off, Umbrella Chronicles; Darkside Chronicles; and Extraction were actually good games.

Second, that's not even what I was talking about.  Shepard's story ends with Mass Effect 3, and there isn't a doubt in my mind that EA will want to continue this franchise.  I figured the Wii 2 could get in on the next epic trilogy in the series, or perhaps even the MMO they teased in the Game Informer article last month.

[Ian Sane]

I just thought of something.  Could the announcement of the Xbox 720 have a Dreamcast effect on the Cafe?  The Dreamcast was awesome but a lot of the gamers Sega was trying to win back waited for the upcoming PS2 instead.  The assumption with the Cafe is that some effort is being made to win back core gamers.  But what if those core gamers just decide to wait for the upcoming 720 instead?

I think the attitude regarding Sega was that they had burned everyone before so why risk getting burned again when Sony hasn't burned you and the PS2 is almost here.  We could see the same attitude here.  I personally am not very interested in the 720 but I am going to be taking a wait and see approach with Cafe anyway.  Why jump into the Cafe with both feet when MS, who from a core gamer perspective is the top dog, has something new as well?  I figured one advantage the Cafe would have would be some time to itself so core gamers would give it more of a chance because it would be the "next big thing".  Well it will have no such advantage.

[Stogi]

If all it takes to win is graphics, then I think there will be no clear winner. You are forgetting that graphics are pretty much as good as they can get. Have you seen Crysis 2? I can barely see who's shooting at me because everything is too detailed (yes too detailed, and I'm playing on a 50" 1080p plasma).

I think Nintendo recognizes this. What they are going to release is a different answer to videogames. One that breaks away from what we assume a console videogame system is.

Well at least I hope...