Topic: The Blue-Ray/HD-DVD DVI standard and how it could really screw the PS3.

[Pryopizm]

RE:  The title of this thread.

This won't affect PS3 sales at all.  PS3 games will be able to play on both digital and analog hookups.  

[KDR_11k]

If you're within the first five rows in anything but a tiny cinema you can't even see the entire screen at once because you end up with 120° of movie, usually more. For the investment a 46" HDTV would cost (1000 Euros at Aldi and I think that was just 40") I could watch every movie that came out on opening day for at least a decade. A decade is most likely longer than the TV would last and I wouldn't want to watch every movie that comes out within the time period, anyway. There are TV shows worth watching but not that many and there are a lot of reruns so buying the DVD box set is cheaper compared to paying TV fees (17 Euros a month just for owning a TV!) and cable fees (I don't think there are any HD broadcasts on terrestrial).

When did they introduce HD to cinema? I don't recall blocky 640x480 movies. Cinema always had finer "resolution" (on film it's called granularity, I think) than a TV. Maybe they introduced digital but so far I haven't seen it. Movies still have the dirt and roll change marks.

And what home user has a 12.3 sound setup? That's what cinemas use.

Cinema = $17 (Ticket=$9 / Popcorn(small)=$5 / Soda(small)=$3)

Cinema = 6 Euros. 8 Euros if you don't go at a cheap time. You don't have to buy that crap they offer. DVDs can easily run you 20 Euros or more.

worked at a Movie Rental place for awhile while I was in school and the guy there would buy all his DVDs from Wal-Mart and all his videogames used from GameStop. He did this so he could bypass the licencing fees to rent the movies. Normally when you buy a movie to rent you buy a copy that costs around $700(give or take) this is on a per-copy base so for every copy you want to carry you have to pay $700. Now you understand a bit why they get so pissed when you lose a movie.

I don't think that's really illegal. Copyright is about the right to make a copy, not the right to decide what else the customer can do with the copy. If renting something out is illegal that's a clear malfunction of the law and must be removed.

[Artimus]

As KDR just touched on, the physical eye reading size of the movie screen may not appear any bigger than the TV, but the amount of detail contained most definitely is.  

[Terranigma Freak]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pryopizm
RE:  The title of this thread.

This won't affect PS3 sales at all.  PS3 games will be able to play on both digital and analog hookups.

Please read the message. Nobody said anything about games. You're basically forced to pay extra for a Blue-Ray drive that DOESN'T watch movies. Games isn't even the issue here.  

[capamerica]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
If you're within the first five rows in anything but a tiny cinema you can't even see the entire screen at once because you end up with 120° of movie, usually more. For the investment a 46" HDTV would cost (1000 Euros at Aldi and I think that was just 40") I could watch every movie that came out on opening day for at least a decade. A decade is most likely longer than the TV would last and I wouldn't want to watch every movie that comes out within the time period, anyway. There are TV shows worth watching but not that many and there are a lot of reruns so buying the DVD box set is cheaper compared to paying TV fees (17 Euros a month just for owning a TV!) and cable fees (I don't think there are any HD broadcasts on terrestrial).

a 46" HDTV is only $1400 in the US, that equal to watching about 155 movies. I watch at least 1 movie every week (Renting, Buying or going to the theaters) so 155 movies is a little less then 3 years. And thats if prices don't keep going up. Each year the price goes up another $0.50 here. Back in 2000 it was only $6 to see a movie now its $9. And I'll get alot more use out of a HDTV then just watching 155 movies, I also get to use it to watch TV and playvideo games.

I don't pay anything for TV, I also don't have Cable since I can get most of the stations I want for free over my antena and there really isn't anything on Cable I want to watch. I do buy TV shows on DVD I like doing that since alot of my favioret shows ended and most stuff on TV now is pure garbage.

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
When did they introduce HD to cinema? I don't recall blocky 640x480 movies. Cinema always had finer "resolution" (on film it's called granularity, I think) than a TV. Maybe they introduced digital but so far I haven't seen it. Movies still have the dirt and roll change marks.

All the theaters in my area have been useing it for at lest a year now maybe longer. They did the switch around the time StarWars III came out.

And what home user has a 12.3 sound setup? That's what cinemas use.

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Cinema = 6 Euros. 8 Euros if you don't go at a cheap time. You don't have to buy that crap they offer. DVDs can easily run you 20 Euros or more.

As I said for us here its almost cheaper to buy a DVD then to get 2 people to go see a movie in the theater.
I normally go to the movies with a group of friends, I rarely go alone. You might not watch a movie more then once, but some of us do. I rather wait a few months for the DVD release and buy it for $20(or less) and own it for the life of the DVD then go to the movies and waste $9 on something that I can only watch once.

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
I don't think that's really illegal. Copyright is about the right to make a copy, not the right to decide what else the customer can do with the copy. If renting something out is illegal that's a clear malfunction of the law and must be removed.

Here is the US it is illegal. On all the US movies it states that it is illegal to rent the movies and its also illegal to show them in a public place.

[Pryopizm]

Quote
Originally posted by: Terranigma Freak

Quote
Originally posted by: Pryopizm
RE:  The title of this thread.

This won't affect PS3 sales at all.  PS3 games will be able to play on both digital and analog hookups.

Please read the message. Nobody said anything about games. You're basically forced to pay extra for a Blue-Ray drive that DOESN'T watch movies. Games isn't even the issue here.

My point is that it will not screw the PS3.  The PS3 will live or die based on its user base and game sales.  None of which will have too much to do with Blu-Rays incompatibility with current/older HD-Sets.

The only thing that's screwed will be the adoption rate of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players.

[Bill Aurion]

I can see what Terranigma is saying...A lot of people bought a PS2 because they were getting a game machine AND a DVD player...There was an extra incentive to purchase the system (or perhaps it was even the ONLY incentive, as DVD players were pretty expensive back then)...With this gamers are forced to pay a lot more for a system that can only be used for games, as opposed to a game machine and a BluRay movie player...  

[capamerica]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pryopizm

Quote

My point is that it will not screw the PS3.  The PS3 will live or die based on its user base and game sales.  None of which will have too much to do with Blu-Rays incompatibility with current/older HD-Sets.

The only thing that's screwed will be the adoption rate of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players.

This will have some effect on the PS3 sales. IF Sony was trying to duplicated the success they had with the PS2 in terms of people picking it over the Dreamcast due to the fact it played DVDs. Those sales are in jeopardy. Since now Sony can't really push the Blu-Ray player as a item to sell the PS3. It brings the war back down to even ground. All Systems play games and all systems play DVDs. No one will care about Next gen video format. Sony loses this ace they had up their sleeves. Now they have to really push the system as a gaming system. This will also effect Sony's plans to use the PS3 as a Trojan Horse to get Blu-Ray players into everyones house and killing off HD-DVD cause no one is going to buy a PS3 to use it as a Blu-Ray player now since no one can use it as one.

Truthfully if Sony was smart they would drop Blu-Ray off of the PS3 and go with a normal DVD player like Microsoft and Nintendo.
I have a feeling that very few companies are going to take advantage of the size of a Blu-Ray disc. Most likely all 3rd party developers who create games that will fit on a Dual-Layer DVD Especially the companies that release multi-consoles games.

[IceCold]

And to top it off, the PS3 will likely be so expensive and arrive relatively late, so it will have few advantages..

[KDR_11k]

Most likely all 3rd party developers who create games that will fit on a Dual-Layer DVD

Really? No. GTA San Andreas hit the limit of the DVD. Okay, so it only used one layer but you cannot use two layers if you stream data (a DVD player takes a second or so to refocus on the other layer) and even if you don't stream using two layers causes problems.

[capamerica]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Most likely all 3rd party developers who create games that will fit on a Dual-Layer DVD

Really? No. GTA San Andreas hit the limit of the DVD. Okay, so it only used one layer but you cannot use two layers if you stream data (a DVD player takes a second or so to refocus on the other layer) and even if you don't stream using two layers causes problems.

You had to go and point out the one case where dual layer wouldn't work hu? Most games still have load screens.
What I was trying to point out is that all 3rd party developers are going to develop games for the lowest settings, Since MS and Nintendo use DVDs they are going to make games based around them.

If I'm not mistaken the new Unreal engine has some cool tech that loads levels with out you knowing it so it seems like your playing in once large level, so maybe that would be the way they would get around it.

[KDR_11k]

Even with load screens I've heard that devs shy away from using two layers.

If I'm not mistaken the new Unreal engine has some cool tech that loads levels with out you knowing it so it seems like your playing in once large level, so maybe that would be the way they would get around it.

That'd be the streaming we're talking about. GTA does that, Metroid Prime does it, SSX 3 does it.

[BigJim]

Older HDTV set owners can relax for now. Analog connections on BRD and HD-DVD formats are secured at least until 2011.


http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/003549


Sweet. So my future Series 3 Tivo can use the HDMI, and BRD/HD and console(s) can use the component inputs.  

[Smash_Brother]

This is just betamax and minidisc all over again.

Seriously, Sony failed twice in getting their proprietary standard adopted as the widely accepted media. Apparently, they think the third time is a charm...

[Renny]

SACD is currently failing. Third time wasn't the charm, now they're going for broke.

[Smash_Brother]

Oops. Good call!

[SixthAngel]

Does anyone know how much the bluray discs will probably mark up games?
My dvd player is only a few years old, just like many other people I know.  Why would we buy a whole new player much less rebuy movies for what seems like such a tiny difference?  My dvds look very good on a hi-def tv if I'm around one (usually I'm not), this would have to be an astronomical rise in quality to make me buy hd-dvd or bluray.  At least the switch to to dvd saved (physical) space and gave extras.  The last format changes also had a big change in appearance.  This new format to any average person looks no different and doesn't have that "high-tech" appeal.

[KDR_11k]

Does anyone know how much the bluray discs will probably mark up games?

Not much. Since the prices didn't go down after the cartridges were replaced with CDs I don't think they factor the price of the medium in. Games are priced at "What those suckers will pay" and the suckers wopn't pay more than 60 Euros.

[Arbok]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Not much. Since the prices didn't go down after the cartridges were replaced with CDs I don't think they factor the price of the medium in.

Since when? PS1 games were much cheaper than N64, or SNES before them, games. That was one of the prime factors behind why they won out that generation. Once the PS2 was released, and their userbase was established, they went back up to the old levels for the CD/DVD games on that system.

[BigJim]

The BRD discs in themselves won't result in marked up games. Some developers so far are anxious to price HD games at $60 anyway, regardless of the disc medium.

Anyway, what you say is true, Sixth. The difference between DVDs and HD DVDs isn't as dramatic as broadcast TV vs. HDTV. The picture is definitely sharper thanks to the higher resolution, but the difference won't blow you away. Video games resemble that scenario and is probably why Nintendo chose not to invest in HD yet.