Topic: Pearing down the Revolution controller

[Ian Sane]

I liked the three prong N64 controller too.  I feel the handles make things more obvious.  "Put your hand here to use this and here to use that".  You know exactly where to rest your thumb.

"But, see, some people don't even get into the games; as soon as they look at the controller they make up their mind that it's too complicated to use."

Fine, but there comes a point where it's not worth it.  If you're not even going to TRY to game then screw off.  Why should I have to deal with a limited controller so that people who refuse to even pick up a controller can game?  I can deal with people trying things out and getting confused but not people putting in no effort at all.  The fact that Nintendo seems to be targeting this group is what turns me off the most.  If you haven't made any effort at all you have no right to complain and you don't deserve to have a brilliant GAMING company like Nintendo focus on you.

We made Nintendo the successful game company it is today.  We do not deserve to have our gaming comprimised so that some loser who decided that gaming wasn't for them from a mere glance can game.  I care about games and Nintendo.  My Mom doesn't.  So why is the Rev being designed for her?  

[nickmitch]

Maybe a mix of the N-64 controller and the wave bird would be nice. The six face buttons of the 64 with a trackball where the c-stick would be (also acting as a button), a digital click R and L, bigger D-pad, yeah. . .

[Truthliesn1seyes]

But do you honestly think that Nintendo would sacrifice their core fanbase for the so far unproven non gamers? Do you think Nintendo will create a controller that will limit their creativity/options or downgrade their franchises like Metriod and Zelda? Just the simple fact that Metriod Prime 3 is being planned for Rev (using the logical assumption that it builds off of the previous 2) should show you that their controller isn't going to sacrifice any functionality. Metriod Prime is one of the most complex console games control wise. If they are going to dumby down the controls for the masses that don't play games, then how are they going to allow us to switch visors and weapons on the fly while still giving us the freedom to run, jump shoot and look every which way?

Nintendo can't abandon their core fanbase because we are the only ones that keep them afloat in the home console front. Nintendo has gone on the record to say that they aren't out to do away with the old type of gaming but that they are just trying to broaden video game's appeal. Nintendo is a big enough company to allocate resources to us hardcore gamers that want our zeldas, metriod etc... and to the non gamers who might be looking for a time killer.  Also, just in case you (Ian) or anyone else counter my previous sentence by saying how these other resources spent on the non gamers could be used to create more epic, full filling, traditional games, you have to keep in mind that games aren't made with just you in mind. There should be a market for every type of gamer, even the non gamers. Who knows, maybe we'll end up liking the time killers made for the non gamers. Maybe the development of these time killers helps spark some new ideas or approaches to our old, traditional games.

I still can't see how people can think Nintendo has spent millions in R&D (the Rev is supposed to have the highest R&D cost of all Nintendo's home consoles), signed ATI and IBM to develop custom chips and moved on up to bigger sized discs (as apposed to the Gcube discs) so they can make simple time consumers akin to minesweeper and whatnot that don't require such high end equipment.

[ShyGuy]

So what does everyone think it's going to take to please the 3rd parties and mainstream players?

I would guess 8 buttons (or button-like) and two directional inputs. Most games would be fine with 6 buttons.

The big question is, where do you fit them? the right side gets crowded with more than 4 buttons, IMO. 4 triggers are probably the best way to go, although it's a bit of a compromise, not too mention a little confusing unless they are distinct (not the like PS2 controllers)

I think an analog control pad could narrow the left side of the controller down to one place to put your thumb.

[Nile Boogie]

From what we know, the 360 and P$3 controllers are pretty much the same as last Gen. (Amount of buttons, placement etc...).  So "if" the Retrolution controller is some far-out wacky gyro-tube,  can't developers just port/design a game for the Retro with the WaveBird in mind. There seems to be no big change in the style of the 3 pads. If so then we could get games on both sides of the Next-Gen fence.


What do you get when you mix a trackball, a touch-pad, a srcollwheel and a Triroscopeā„¢?

[Truthliesn1seyes]

I was just thinking, of all the controller rumors going around, I think the guy in this blog has got it right, even if he is a fake.

http://theblogs.net/user/kingdea/

Basically, what this guy is claiming is that the Rev controller will be basically a modified Cube controller with reworked face buttons, R and L buttons still similar, z button moved to a trigger position similar to the N64 and another button being added on the left handle as another trigger, gyro built in, squeezable handles, a heating and cooling mechanism, and a trackball as apposed to the second analog stick.

Now please hear me out, I think some of what he says makes sence

Modified face buttons plus R and L buttons

There is no way around this, there really is no way Nintendo IMO will remove all face buttons.  They need to have at least 4 face buttons to stay alive with the casual and hardcore gamers today and also with the developers that want to keep making traditional games.  What they could do to appeal to non gamers is reorganize the face buttons in a manner that doesn't seem demanding.  Make the buttons distinguishable so they are easily memorized.  The R and L buttons can be carried over from the Cube since they are just smooth as butter and give off the best initial reaction (your fingers feel just right on the R and L buttons when you grabbed a Cube controller for the first time)

Modified Z button

The z button on the Cube I believe is probably the worst placed button I've ever seen from Nintendo.  Moving it over to a trigger position is only natural.  Everyone (non gamers) can relate to a trigger since even household appliances have them.  Sprays in the house have triggers under their nozzles and everyone has held a toy gun at one point or another in life lol.

Gyro tech

This almost seems to be a given.  Every time a non gamer tries and plays a game, they sway their hands in the general direction they want to move.  Thus why not include gyro tech to put this swaying motion to some actual use.  Swaying their hands will only feel natural to a non gamer

Squeezable handles

I guess this could be pulled off by including an analog button (similar to the R and L buttons on the cube) in the same shape as the right and left handles of the controller.  All the non gamer would have to do is squeeze the handle to press the button.  Squeezing is a very primitive infantile action that should be right at home with everyone.  Similar to triggers, squeezing is something we are accustomed to and is part of our every day lives.

Heating and Cooling tech

I don't see this happening, it really doesn't serve any purpose (gameplay wise) outside of just helping you get further in the game.  This is something I'd rank up their with rumble features in controls.  It has very few methods it can be used for gameplay but its mostly there for entertainment lol.  If they can include this in their controller very cheap, I can see them doing it, but if it costs them a pretty penny, I don't see it happening.

Trackball

I think this could very well happen. The second analog stick has become nothing more than a means to control a camera in a game or for aiming in first person shooters. A trackball would be a lot better for both of those purposes. A trackball would give you a lot more precision than an analog stick ever could since you can continuously adjust the trackball till you find just the right position you want. Also, for a non gamer, dealing with one analog stick is hard enough, seeing 2 on a controller just makes things that much worse. A trackball is just a ball in their eyes. A ball is something they've grown familiar with throughout their life. A trackball is just more inviting visually IMO. I can only speak for myself but when I first saw a trackball mouse, I immediately just wanted to touch it, spin it around, and play just for the hell of it.

Now if you add all this up, its basically taking everyday things that non gamers are already accustomed too, and applying them to games. I know they'll still be 4 face buttons and R and L buttons but so did the SNES over 10 yrs ago. Nintendo doesn't need to make the next "Bop It"(as some other forum member said lol, forgot who though) to attract non gamers. All they need to do is make a controller that, as they have said "people will just want to touch and feel it" when they see it. Once they get the person making a physical connection with the control, they'll then begin to learn how to play.

This controller theory is something that could help bring in new players while also still providing for the tradition followers.  

[Famicom]

I dunno, I just can't envision a console controller with a trackball today. Especially a controller with gryos. If I'm busy swaying my controller around the room, won't my trackball move, this screwing over my camera angles? And if it's tight, I lose the precision of having a trackball in the first place.

[KDR_11k]

it just wasn't comfortable for 1 type of game: fighters.

Certain fighters. Soul Calibur 2 works fine, any indy-made fighter with the 3+1 button convention (3 attack buttons plus one special button) works fine. Some companies insist on giving you too many buttons instead of thinking about how to reduce control complexity. There's really no need to separate attacks per limb unless those limbs can be damaged or something, not having a "kick" and "punch" button also allows for more wacky characters and a more logical correlation between button name and attack.

Famicom: I don't see why the ball would move much, it's a centered weight and all that could turn it is inertia (the sensors will provide enough friction to avoid that already), not likely to happen unless a game requires VERY abrupt movements.

[Spak-Spang]

TRUTH:

You broke down exactly my feelings.

The Cube controllers buttons were very nice for nongamers, but it did hurt the design for some types of games.  If Nintendo was to continue along the same exploration I am sure they can find similar results that would better for more games.

I am thinking still a larger A button, but smaller than the Cubes.  The A-Button again will be the resting point button and the other buttons will Surround the A-Button.  However, the design would be slightly slanted to allow pushing 2 buttons at the same time easily.

Now, the Trackball.  I believe this will happen too.  The Trackball works very well for camera work...but it allow works for games like Mario Party that requires you to rotate an analog stick quickly...how about just using the trackball to keep the analog stick from wearing out.  PERFECT.  The trackball with a creative team can create amazing games.  

Pressure Sensitive grips:  I don't see this happening.  I see these buttons as getting confused with the new trigger buttons underneath the controller.  The reason why is that sensitivity of these buttons would be impossible to calibrate.  An adult will naturally hold a controller with a firm grip, requiring a much stronger grip to trigger results, but then children might not be able to use the grip properly.

Heat/Cooling:  There is absolutely no game benefit to this feature so like you said truth...NO.

Gryo Control:  Completely agree...and I also agree that it won't be super advanced use it to do crazy game controls.  It will be simple stuff like rolls for Ar-wings and such.

The Z-Trigger wasn't that bad.  Really the worst part about it was the L and R buttons were too good to rest your finger on.  You didn't want to move the finger up to hit the Z-Button.  But that button was never meant to be a main action button.  However, this is something Nintendo needs to address.  If you want to limit the number of buttons then you need to make sure every button can be used comfortably for multiple uses and several game types.  

[couchmonkey]

While I understand Ian's complaints that Nintendo coiuld abandon us by making the controller too simple, I still ike where Nintendo is going with this.  I've seen non-gamers get way more excited about playing my NES than GameCube simply because there are only two buttons to deal with.

I also don't think we should worry too much since the controller is supposed to be able to play GameCube and N64 games.  If it can play those, then there's no reason to think it can't play equally complex Revolution games.  The question is how the heck is will it do that while removing buttons and sticks?  I have to agree with Ian that some kind of customizable touch-screen or similar controller is even more intimidating than one with a bunch of buttons on it...assuming the touch screen just displays the buttons that they didn't put right on the controller.  But I bet Nintendo has already seen that anyway.  I don't think it will just be a touch screen with controls all over it....especially since Nintendo has stated that it won't be a touch-screen at all.

[Truthliesn1seyes]

To answer the question in regards to the trackball moving with the swaying of the controller.  Could they in someway have the trackball clickable.  Say, for example, if you want to move the trackball, you simply click it down and it'll unlock it to allow movement, then when you have it to how you want it, you simply click it down again and it'll lock in place.  This will work perfectly IMO.  As for fps, since you constantly have to be using the trackball, you won't have to worry about it moving with you swaying the control becuase your thumb will always be resting on the trackball not allowing it to move unless you make it so.

Anyways, I wouldn't worry too much about the controller being drastically simple.  Nintendo has announced Metriod Prime 3 for the Rev and they continue to build off the previos 2 (a logical estimate) then the control will still have to be versatile.  Metriod Prime is one of the most complicated games control wise.  I don't see how we'll be able to switch visors and weapons on the fly while still running, gunning and jumping with a simple controller (unless they were to put the visor and weapons option to be activated through voice command lol)

[Ian Sane]

"But do you honestly think that Nintendo would sacrifice their core fanbase for the so far unproven non gamers?"

It's not something I think as much as it's something I fear.  Logically it seems like a stupid move but Nintendo has done a lot of really questionable moves in the last ten years.  The fact that it would be a dumb move is not good enough "proof" that they won't do it.  The Cube was like a collection of dumb Nintendo moves.  I love Nintendo but I don't trust them anymore.  Plus there's the level of support towards the traditional gamer.  I don't like what they're doing with the DS.  There's too much focus on non-gamer stuff and most of their new original ideas are for stuff like Nintendogs and Electroplankton.  It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers.  I don't want that for the Rev.  If the traditional gamers are supposed to rely on the download service and sequels that's not good enough for me.  I don't need to buy a new console to play sequels.  Metroid Prime 3 sounds great but I'm not buying a new console for it.

"The second analog stick has become nothing more than a means to control a camera in a game or for aiming in first person shooters. A trackball would be a lot better for both of those purposes."

The problem with this is that the second analog stick shouldn't just be for camera control or aiming.  It's mostly used for camera control because of how Nintendo designed it.  They made it a nipple stick.  It just wasn't as functional as the prime analog stick.  But it didn't have to be.  It could have been the exact same stick and if it was it might have been used better.  It's like when people say you don't need a d-pad anymore because it wasn't that useful on the Cube.  Of course it wasn't.  It was designed to be useless.  Nintendo initially didn't want one but third parties asked for it and since they didn't want to use it themselves they half-assed it and just used the GBA one.  Had they put a "real" d-pad on there it would have gotten better use.  So don't think of how the c-stick is currently used.  Think of how a good second analog stick can be used and then decide if a trackball is a better substitute.

[KDR_11k]

Truth: A lockable trackball is just confusing. Noone would try clicking it to move it. Besides, state switching can get annoying when you have to do it often and the current state isn't immediately obvious.

Ian: Sequels like Yoshi and Kirby? Castlevania DS?
What would you use the second analog for except for camera/aiming? Sure, some games like Katamari use it for tank-controls but generally all games, even those on the PS2 with its equal sticks use it for camera/aim only. That's because your right thumb is on the buttons, few games need more than one primary directional control

[ShyGuy]

Well, the 2nd analog stick is overwhelmingly used only as a camera stick or FPS aiming on Xbox and PS2 as well. Both have duplicate sticks and it's still lousy, IMO.

I can only think of 4 games off the top of my head that had alternate functions for the C stick:
Star Fox Adv: menu system (wasn't that great)
Pikmin: rounding up your pikmin
Luigi's Mansion: aiming the vacuum
Obi Wan for the Xbox: dynamic swinging of your light saber

[vudu]

You forgot beam selection for Metroid Prime.

[ShyGuy]

I haven't gotten that far in Prime yet, I'm stuck on the giant plant boss with the  sun beam dishes

[Ian Sane]

"What would you use the second analog for except for camera/aiming?"

Robotron 2084 and Smash TV!  YEAH!  Okay that's not something that is really widely used but the concept is solid and can be used for other games.  Imagine Mario Kart where the C-stick fires the weapons so you use that to pick what direction to fire in.  That would be pretty cool and it would be much harder to implement with a trackball.

[ShyGuy]

wouldn't that require letting off the accelerator (A) to fire? Although I guess the go button could be moved to a squeezable handle..

[Truthliesn1seyes]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane<br  I don't like what they're doing with the DS.  There's too much focus on non-gamer stuff and most of their new original ideas are for stuff like Nintendogs and Electroplankton.  It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers.  

See, this is a typical Nintendo fanboy rant.  These past few years, everyone has been drillin Nintendo for not bring Mario Kart and Pokemon online, and to a lesser degree, for Advance Wars, Animal Crossing, and a few other games.  Now Nintendo is coming along and answering our complaints and giving us our fav games online and what do they get?  "It's like the traditional gamers are supposed to be content with sequels like Mario Kart, Advance Wars and Animal Crossing while all the creativity goes to the non-gamers."  Its like Nintendo has to be mind readers and be able to see the future to be able to answer all our complaints.  We complained about a lack of online and now we are getting them applied to our fav franchises.  Yet now there are newer complaints.  Nintendo fanboys are like nagging girlfreinds who no matter what you do, you can't ever please.  Its a lose lose situation.

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane<br  Metroid Prime 3 sounds great but I'm not buying a new console for it

?  What exactly does that have to do with what I said?  I never mentioned Metriod Prime 3 in reference to it being a system seller.  Personally, I believe it is, but looking at through the industry's point of view, it isn't a system seller.  The reason I mentioned Metriod Prime 3 is becuase if its developement is based on the previous 2 games (a logical assumption) then you can throw away all these ideas you have of the Rev controller being too simple.  Metriod Prime, as I said in my previos post, has one of the most complex control schemes for a console game.  I don't mean complex in the way that its hard to master but complex in that it allows alot of different functions on the fly.  Tell me how exactly is Rev's "simple" and "dumbied down for the masses" controller goin to allow me to cycle through visors, cycle through beams, run, gun and jump on the fly?  Either the Rev's controller is capable of every function our current controllers allow just in a different form or Metriod Prime 3 is going to be a HUGE departure from the previous 2.  I for one, believe in the former rather than the later (I think thats how the sayin goes lol, anywho, you know what I mean)

[Morales]

Hey guys.  I don't post much, but I thought I'd share my newest controller idea.   It's similar, I'm sure, to many others, but I think this would be pretty streamlined, simple, and functional.  I wish I was an artist...

Ok, think the shape of the gamecube controller with a less bulky rechargable battery for wireless and the rumble making a return after a brief hiatus from the Wavebird.  Take away the dpad, c stick and z button.  

The controller will, of course, feature gyroscopes and be splittable into two halves for freedom's sake and also simple games that only use one half.  

The face buttons would be replaced with Immersion's touch pad with tactile feedback for a fully customizable configuration.  

The grips would be pressure sensitive.  I just love that idea, and it basically adds another L and R without having to move your index finger at all.

Put a mic on there, cuz it's cheap and could be used, especially with some of the AI middleware Nintendo is tinkering with.

Finally, the analog stick would utilize some haptic technology that provides resistance and motorized movement.  If you get hit, maybe it jerks in that direction.  If you're climbing up hill, you'll feel the resistance.  Finally, it could be used to (and excuse me for this one) stiffen up the stick when you're playing retro titles so that it functions as basically a mini arcade style joystick, thus making a dpad unnecessary.

Thoughts?

[Spak-Spang]

Morales:  There is too much there.  For one you would have to have 2 batteries to break it apart and keep it wireless.  Another situation is too many functions for a single controller type.

I like the Immersion's touch pad.  I believe that could really make it into a controller, but it would be a very basic controller besides that one element.  I also like the force feedback idea for the analog stick, but I don't think it is very functional.  It works for joysticks because you are holding the stick in your hand, and not just resting your thumb on it.  I believe the haptic analog stick like you are describing wouldn't work.

[nickmitch]

Touchscreen buttons + arcade style gaming = calc error 473

Many arcade gems require you to press multiple buttons and a touch screen doesn't recognize multiple touch points (I don't think it's ther just yet). Detachable controller means TWO batteries. Most people would just prefer a dpad. The L&R pressure sensitivity wasn't used much this gen so I doubt that it will be next gen.

One last thing: How do you replace the c-stick?

[SgtShiversBen]

Quote
Nintendo fanboys are like nagging girlfreinds who no matter what you do, you can't ever please.  Its a lose lose situation.

I agree whole heartily with that.  Didn't know that girlfriends (now my ex) could be such a pain

In all honesty, I have no idea what the controller will look like.  I don't even have a clue.  Personally I don't really care all THAT much.  I still know I'm buying a Revolution just so that way I can still play SSB on there and this time (unless they lie to us) it will be online.

[Morales]

Ah yeah, I nearly forgot about that rule with touch screens.   I don't know, maybe for games requiring more than one button press at the same time, they could map those functions to L/R or the grip buttons.  

I guess it would require a battery on each side.   I don't see that as that big of a deal but then again I'm no cost analyst and I also don't know how much power a controller like this would need.  I do know that the gyroscopic microchips consume very little power, however.

The gyroscopic sensors would take the place of the c- stick...and don't knock it till you try it.  I'm really just trying to get into Nintendo's head here.   You know, a controller, with less sticks and buttons but enough functions to be able to play all the games of previous generations.

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: TVman
Touchscreen buttons + arcade style gaming = calc error 473

Many arcade gems require you to press multiple buttons and a touch screen doesn't recognize multiple touch points (I don't think it's ther just yet). Detachable controller means TWO batteries. Most people would just prefer a dpad. The L&R pressure sensitivity wasn't used much this gen so I doubt that it will be next gen.

One last thing: How do you replace the c-stick?

When you touch multiple places on a touchscreen it simply averages the distance between them and finds a "center".  I guess they could make a "center" position that is not marked as a button but when pressed it acts as a combination of two buttons.  I know this is complicated and, yes, you could simply know the trick and press inbetween the buttons on the invisible "center" but I thought I'd just put down my idea.

Also, lets not forget the technology is always advancing.  I've heard (although don't remember where unfortunately) that developers are already tinkering around with ways to register multiple touches at the same time on the DS screen.  Maybe by the time rev is released the tech will simply work for multiple inputs.  But, anyway, I'm not really that big of a fan of touchsreen buttons anyway.  Unless they could somehow have it with logical feedback it sounds like a bad idea.  If there was a small screen to display information or select things then I'd be all for that.  In fact that'd be pretty damn cool and could free up the screen from stats and hide selections in multiplayer.