Topic: Good Lord, Another Editorial: Can't Touch This

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I was able to adjust to the touch screen controls in Mario 64 DS, but I agree that the touch screen as an input device is dubious.  Eventually developers will learn to avoid the touch screen AS a touch screen unless it really does make sense. (There is absolutely nothing wrong with using that touch screen simply as a screen.)

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
"Unfortunately Hunters looks like it will be a Metroid mini game for multiplayer rather than a whole Metroid game which leaves us with the problem of there not being a single major killer game that uses the touch screen."

He speaks, yet he does not know.

What are you talking about?  Show me some evidence that says Hunters will be a complete Metroid game.  I am not being biased for or against Nintendo with my criticism.  It is one of the few games that actually uses the touch screen well and I give it that, though tapping the screen to do anything in a game is just about clumsy.  For me the game needs to do more than take advantage of the hardware's capabilities for gameplay.  The game needs some kind of composition and unity, otherwise it is nothing more than a multiplayer game.  


Rick is right about the controls needing to be translucent, but I think so far the problem is developers not using common sense when making their games rather than the problem being the hardware.  

[Don'tHate742]

Good God, did anyone complain when you had to use that ugly square box thing that hurt your hands; in other words the NES controller. No people kept playing and having fun. I don't have a DS of my own, but I've played around on it long enough to get a good feel for it. Metriod was a blast, easy to control, and easy to hold....no problems there. I haven't played Mario or Wario DS, but I do have experiences with a PDA. When you write on a PDA it is easy to see what your writing while you write. I don't get your guys argurment really, to me, it seems like you are holding your stylus like a chopstick or something. I think mastering the DS is the same as learning how to use any type of controller that your completely new too. When you first held an NES controller, did you know how to use it well? No, you knew how to use it; but well...probably not. What about the light gun? You were probably not a natural sharp shooter when you started...sure you got the concept but i'm sure you felt it awkward to hold at first. Yet you became good at using it well, even if you had to partially cover the screen sometimes. The analog stick was just an extension of the D-pad and really didn't add anything new. What about double analog sticks for FPS? I'm sure you were horrible when you first started; everyone is. Mastering the controls is just as important as playing the game itself. Once you feel comfortable with controls you can start learning how to get better using those very controls. You may argue that it's harder with the DS, but that's just cuase of you and what you do for a living (playing videogames probably). Your too use to something else and the change is making you frustrated.

Once you figure out how to use the controller well, it's a rewarding feeling, and I think your just complain that it's harder than you thought.

[SgtShiversBen]

I agree with Don'tHate. With my DS I adapted to it very easily.  It doesn't hurt my hands at all.  I've played Mario DS on all controller concepts and found them all to be great.  I switch in between them just so that way I can play it old fashioned or touch screen.  My girlfriend loves the freaking thing to death (she wants the Candy Pink one) and she shows it by kicking my ass in the Mario Mini Games.  Metroid Prime Hunters is just freaking awesome.  It plays exactly like a FPS Computer game and it makes it easier (for me at least).  I think it's good that they went this way with the game, because then we'd be exaclty like the PSP is.  Games we could play at home, but instead have to buy them on a handheld AND at home.  With this they at least are adding the variety.  I know for sure I couldn't play Yoshi or Polarium at home.  But that's just me, I guess Nintendo had me in mind when they designed the DS.  It fits in my hands and is all gravy.  The PSP on the other hand I do not know.  It seems pretty tempting, but then I'm reminded it's a HANDHELD system, and 250$ is WAY to expensive.  Heck, I don't even know how I payed 150 for the DS.  I guess I just wanted it that much, and I don't negate my purchase at all.  

[Bill Aurion]

What are you talking about? Show me some evidence that says Hunters will be a complete Metroid game.

How about YOU give some evidence that proves the game won't be...We don't have a clue how it'll turn out, so you can't claim it'll go one way or the other at this point in time...

[Hostile Creation]

You're all just whining.  I've had no trouble with the touchscreen and no one I've played with has had trouble with the touchscreen.  You're a moron if you're holding the stylus in your fist and banging it into the touchscreen, it's not like people have any trouble writing crap down on paper and not being able to see it.  Honestly, I've had no problems at all with my hand being in the way or the controls being at all awkward.  I just think it would be a good idea, in many games, to control with the bottom screen and navigate with the top screen.

"That's because for your mom and sis (and most casual gamers), pressing buttons and/or using the d-pad is even more abstract than using the stylus."
That's exactly my point.  Besides, my other friend, owner of a Gamecube and a Playstation 2 and who has played games as long as I have, also enjoyed the DS quite a lot.  And my other friends too, though none of them are as familiar with console or handheld gaming.

"one of the level designers on Halo"
I hope he has more credentials than that.  The terrible level design is one of the reasons I can hardly stand to play Halo much.

[RickPowers]

Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
"one of the level designers on Halo"
I hope he has more credentials than that.  The terrible level design is one of the reasons I can hardly stand to play Halo much.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=7559/

He's actually very smart, and while I haven't completely agreed with some things he's said, game design is more art than science, and art is difficult to teach.  By the way, IIRC, it was the MULTIPLAYER levels on Halo that he worked on, not the main game.  I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that's what he said.

[Hostile Creation]

Don't worry, I believe you.  I haven't played many of those games, so I can't say much, but I'll just take your word for it.
I'm not actually a big fan of the multi lay-out, either.  Most of the levels bore me, Blood Gulch is one of the few I enjoy.  Definitely better than the main game, though.

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
What are you talking about? Show me some evidence that says Hunters will be a complete Metroid game.

How about YOU give some evidence that proves the game won't be...We don't have a clue how it'll turn out, so you can't claim it'll go one way or the other at this point in time...

The name of the game is Hunters and every aspect thus far shown of the game suggests it is not about adventuring in search of upgrades and pieces of a story, but rather killing your friends in deathmatch so Nintendo can push the multiplayer aspect of the hardware.  Wasn't this game supposed to be out by now?  I've already seen commercials for it on television.

[Don'tHate742]

If it is only like Unreal Tournament, then why in the world is it taking so long to be released? I mean if the single player is just like the multiplayer aspect, with not much of an adventure added on, then why in the world is it taking so long to be released? With delay after delay? They could be perfecting the aiming/shooting aspect, but for this long? It seemed preety perfected to me, with some missing functions due to it being a demo and all. I am almost positive Hunters is exactly going to be that, where you hunt stuff. What Metriod game didn't hunt things? Your a bouty hunter for christ sake! Plus with the break throughs that MP and MP2:Echoes acheived, a 3-d metriod FPA has been proven to work. So I don't see why it can't work now, with the greater ease of aiming being the only thing different.

Anyways, the time it's taking to release = full metriod game to me

[Bloodworth]

I'm with Don'tHate and Hostile Creation on this one.  I really don't have any of the problems with the touch screen controls that  Jonny or anyone else have expressed, but I haven't tried Mario 64 or Wario Ware either.  My girlfriend and I have been addicted to Feel the Magic and Yoshi instead.  Even then, I don't have this issue with my hand being in the way.  It may obstruct the action at times, but I don't notice it.  I don't feel detached from a game because it's there, and in fact, with Yoshi, time just disappeared for me.  I'd start playing, not feel like I'd been on very long, and then find an hour had passed

As for Metroid, Nintendo has said there's supposed to be a full single player mode as far back as last E3, and I believe that's still the plan.

[PaLaDiN]

In fact I distinctly remember a video of a singleplayer cutscene or something of the sort.

[Don'tHate742]

I'm glad that Bloodworth agrees with me becuase he's sooo much cooler than Rick.

[RickPowers]

BANNED.  

[Jonnyboy117]

Who said anything about the touch screen being hard to use or it being hard to see what you're doing?  My problem with the touch screen is that I can see EXACTLY what I'm doing, and usually that's drawing or tapping on things.  I don't care how you hold your stylus, there is always an obstruction over the screen, which makes it far more difficult to focus only on the screen display, and some portion of the screen will always be completely covered up.  The impact on visibility is minimal; the impact on immersion is significant.  No, this is not an issue with the GBA, PSP, or any other system; the problem is unique to touch screens.

[Bill Aurion]

That sounds like a personal problem, as I have found myself that much more immersed in the game due to actively controlling what's going on on-screen...Wario Ware for me is an example of such interaction, and I can't wait to see what's next...

(edited thanks to sarcastic Hostile... ;_;.)

[Hostile Creation]

That redundant statement was pretty redundant, Bill

Warioware is a blast.  The only problem I found with games being too similar was with the blowing games, since they're all basically blowing into the microphone.  A little bit of variation, but not much.
And for this as well, I became totally immersed in the game and was not bothered by the fact that I saw my hand at all.  It works fine for this sort of game.

[Kaboth]

[QOUTE]What are you talking about? Show me some evidence that says Hunters will be a complete Metroid game. I am not being biased for or against Nintendo with my criticism. It is one of the few games that actually uses the touch screen well and I give it that, though tapping the screen to do anything in a game is just about clumsy. For me the game needs to do more than take advantage of the hardware's capabilities for gameplay. The game needs some kind of composition and unity, otherwise it is nothing more than a multiplayer game.[/QOUTE]

Even if Hunters was only essentially a multiplayer game, does it really matter? After all that's all Unreal Tournament has ever been and few people doubt the success and fun of those games. I think focusing on cornering the market for competitive multiplayer games is an excellant move by Nintendo to dissuade people from jumping on the PSP train. I only wish they'd perhaps tried it with a new franchise. But if a regular Metroid Single player game is added, I consider this a bonus.      

[Djunknown]

Great read as always.

Quote
Create mouse-friendly games like strategy or tycoon games. Let the bottom screen work like a PC tablet or a laptop touchpad and have a mouse cursor on the top screen where all the action takes place.

Nintendo could use the DS to pitch game ideas to devs/publishers that normally don't flock to consoles/handhelds. Roller Coaster Tycoon DS? Not exactly original, but plausible!

Another free idea is to look at a classic PC game called Abuse(Hell, why not just tweak it, port it and call it a day?). Its a 2d shooter a la old Contra, but uses the mouse for precise shooting. one possible configuration is to use the stylus in either hand on the bottom screen as you see the cross hair on top (and the weapon will point to it as well). The d-pad or cross pad will be for digital controls, and use the L or R trigger to jump. So if you're using the D-pad, L would be to jump. Just a thought.

Hopefully they'll showcase more stuff at GDC and E3 to keep people interested in the DS.  

[KDR_11k]

I don't have a problem with the stylus hurting immersion but that might be because I'm used to working with a pen on a computer.

[Caillan]

The importance of immersion has been overstated by opinionated as well as influential developers and theorists. It is a fine principle to hold in a certain type of game, but there are too many examples of brilliance which openly ignore the concept for it to be an absolute. The only absolute principle games should abide by is to provide enjoyment, be it from fun or a feeling of satisfaction or intellectual stimulation or anything else.

There are many external factors you are exposed to when you are playing games. Outside sounds, the feeling of the controller in your hands, and the border around the TV screen are all too striking to conciously ignore. though I do not agree with them, some suggest that players actually go into a sort of trance after a few minutes of playing games, at which point all external factors are blotted out. If this actually is the case, surely you hand could be as well?

[KnowsNothing]

I'd like to express my frustration on the fact that the screen on Bill's DS is completely unmarred, yet somehow I've managed to scratch BOTH screens on my DS.  What the hell?!  I try to be as careful as possible ;___;  And how did the scratch get on the freaking top screen?!  I must have gotten the faulty DS unit with screens made out of butter.

There needs to be a Worms game for the DS.
 

[Don'tHate742]

Good suggestion...I love worms, especially in a can.

I also love the contra idea with mouse-like precise shooting. That was the only thing I wished from my contra games, a way to shoot in more then just 8 directions. Oh ya and to also stand still while shooting diagonal. I think that instead of "innovating" Nintendo full capacity like they are now, they should focus a small portion of their resources of bring those games that normally would suck and a handheld or console. A Starcraft or Warcraft would be so freaking sweet, and I'm not even a big fan of those games....just the possibilty of saying "hey, I got Starcraft. Wanna play?----What race you gonna be?" while standing in the middle of NOwhere/anywhere would be great. Twitchy FPS would be fun too. I have always liked Doom (though I haven't played 3). Also a board game collection would be nice (playing chess during class is surprisingly fun). Games like Time Crisis could be done well too. What about Bulder's Gate, Black and White, and even Max Payne (sucked for consoles)?

These games that focus on the arcade, PC game player could potentially attract them to the DS since it has what they want. They don't want a console or a console handheld (GBA/PSP), the want the PC handheld (DS).

[Robotor]

Some of the games seem to be about changing the environment to help a character, instead of directly controlling it.  In this case seeing your hand wouldn't hurt, because you are outside of that character.  And I have to agree with Bill in that I've had more immersion and reward in my 3 DS games than I have in a while.  Especially in WarioWare, but that’s because I'm not thinking "draw a line".  If you think slice a vegetable, pull a string, scratch a back, or lather the hair the game isn't repetitive at all.  Touch screen control has impressed me, and I think it's great for gaming, really great for handhelds.


Great editorial though, keep them coming.  I'm really digging on the influx of them.

[KDR_11k]

Arena Wars would be the perfect multiplayer RTS title for the DS. There's very little buildup time, you start fighting within the first minute and matches with reasonable score limits won't last more than a few minutes. Controls are simple and the game meant for competitive multiplayer. The perfect game for the match against the stranger on the bus.