Topic: Good Lord, Another Editorial: Can't Touch This

[Jonnyboy117]

When it rains, it pours.  Please use this thread to discuss my new editorial:

Can't Touch This

[Shecky]

There should be more games on the DS that don't use the touch screen, and I refuse to buy any game that thinks switching between the buttons and the screen during game play is a good idea.  (This excludes multiple control schemes that use one or the other and are mutually exclusive)

Edit: Mutually exclusive over the entire play time... as in like an initial preference or control setup.

[PaLaDiN]

I think it's just a matter of time... it's still a relatively new thing, and games like Meteos and Yoshi do prove its potential.

I remember I didn't like analog sticks much at first... but now I can't go back to dpads.

[Ian Sane]

I never thought about the lack of abstractness of the controls making things seem repetitive.  It makes sense.  I've found pre-DS games that use special input devices like light gun games or arcade driving games or rhythm stuff like Donkey Konga get old pretty fast if you play them too long.  They're fun but they're clearly pick-up-and-play games meant to be played in short bursts.  With an abstract buttons method things feel more like a videogame.  More immersive gameplay that requires special controls feel more like an activity or a toy.  They're fun but they don't quite feel like a videogame.  At least that's what I find.

However I think the big problem with Nintendo's early DS games is that it is clear they designed the DS in the wrong order.  They clearly thought "let's be different" and added a touchscreen without any real ideas ahead of time to justify the concept.  What they should have done is designed some game ideas first and then come to the conclusion that a touchscreen was the ideal way to play these games.  The idea spawns the invention.  No one invents something and then thinks up how to use it.

I think another problem is the trap of feeling one HAS to use the touchscreen and the microphone.  Why does Warioware Touched focus so much on touchscreen games?  Wouldn't it provide more variety to mix things up a bit?  Have a run of normal games, a run of touchscreen games, etc.  Though I also think the WarioWare concept itself by design is prone to becoming stale very quickly.  When each new game requires so many microgames one is going to run out of ideas really quickly particularly when you see how quickly they've made new games in the series.

When I first heard of the touchscreen I immediately thought of it as a clever way to implement mouse functionality on a portable system where because of size a mouse isn't possible.  So I think an ideal solution is to treat the touchscreen like a mouse.  Create mouse-friendly games like strategy or tycoon games.  Let the bottom screen work like a PC tablet or a laptop touchpad and have a mouse cursor on the top screen where all the action takes place.  And for those that want the option let the player pick if they want that method or if they want to play on the touchscreen itself and remove the absraction.

Though I imagine Nintendo likes the fact that touchscreen control is less abstract.  They've said before they want to target non-gamers and removing abstraction is going to be more appealing to the group.  I just worry that they may be focusing too much on that group and that the DS (and possibly the Revolution) may neglect longtime gamers who prefer more complex gameplay and abtraction.

[Hostile Creation]

Everyone I've introduced the DS to would probably love to disagree about the touch screen being ineffective for games, especially casual gamers like my mother and sister.  They love the use of a touchscreen, seeing what they're doing, it's much more fun for them.  So it depends on the audience.  For example, I'm not sure they're going to like Yoshi Touch&Go as much as I will.
You do make some good points, though.  While I think some games should certainly have you paying attention to what you do on the touch screen, or at least have portions of the game that do, focusing control on one half and action on the other is a good idea.  I think the Bob-omb's Away mini-game in Mario 64 DS did an excellent job of using control on the bottom screen, focus on the top screen, with occasional action on the lower screen.

[Caillan]

I agree with most of this, especially the point about having your hands get in the way as you play. I wouldn't say the touch screen sucks but I'm skeptical about its potential. Yoshi's Touch and Go seemed promising, but from the recent review it sounds more like a game I'd buy if I had a DS, not a game I'd buy a DS for.

"But for the most part, I’m not convinced that the touch screen offers anything useful to the DS that couldn’t be done (and probably better) with an analog joystick."

I think a mouse would be a better comparison, but really the touch pad is unique. The thing is, the touch screen only has one state when you are in control of the cursor: when the stylus is physically touching it. With a mouse, you can use the cursor to hover over an object or use one of two clicks. there's also usually a wheel. It would perhaps have been nice if the stylus' tip could have been pushed down for a 'click' effect.

An analogue stick can't do many of the things even the current DS games require you to do. Rubbing or slicing would be extremely awkward on the Gamecube, because you'd need both a stick and a button to do poorly what the stylus can do by itself on the DS. This isn't to say that the touch screen is actually as useful as an anolouge stick, though.

"There should be more games on the DS that don't use the touch screen..."

The problem with not using the touch function is that you're stuck with either a tiny screen or a larger, but horribly disjointed one.

I'm really liking all the editorials, by the way.

[nemo_83]

I think the touch screen sucks for movement in games like Mario 64, but is great for aiming in games like Metroid Hunters.  Unfortunately Hunters looks like it will be a Metroid mini game for multiplayer rather than a whole Metroid game which leaves us with the problem of there not being a single major killer game that uses the touch screen.  I would like a Pikmin or Warcraft game that uses it.  There are plenty of FPS franchises that would control well with the touch screen, actually better than with an analog stick, but the damned third parties have released nothing as yet.  Thank god we will at least get a new Castlevania on the system even though it doesn't use the touch screen for anything more than a gimmick.

[KnowsNothing]

You know, I feel the need to say that I've already thought of every point you made in this editorial.  I especially wanted to share about how the touch controls in Touched! linked to its repetitive feel, but I couldn't figure out how to put it into words without sounding like a fool, but then they'd be "It's just knows, he's a fool".  You said it perfectly

So I pretty much agree with everything.  Saying touch-control "sucks" is a bit harsh, but you  knew it was harsh when you said it, sooooo...*shrugs*  

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I’m not convinced that the touch screen offers anything useful to the DS that couldn’t be done (and probably better) with an analog joystick

Animal Crossing.  Using the second screen as a touch-sensative menu is not a mind-shattering idea, but it'll work a hell of a lot better than it did on the GC  So there are games that use the touch controls in innovative ways, such as Touch and Go, and then there are games like Animal Crossing or any RTS that will use the touch screen as a easier way to do the same we've been doing for a while on the go.  I think the fact that this is a handheld adds alot; we've never been able to play an RTS on our GBA.  

I have to go!  ZOOOOOOOOM  

[Deguello]

"Unfortunately Hunters looks like it will be a Metroid mini game for multiplayer rather than a whole Metroid game which leaves us with the problem of there not being a single major killer game that uses the touch screen."

He speaks, yet he does not know.

[Bill Aurion]

"I’m not convinced that the touch screen offers anything useful to the DS that couldn’t be done (and probably better) with an analog joystick"

I don't like this quote at all...You can theoretically do all forms of gaming with the analog stick, but that's not the point...The touch screen 1) allows for a great deal more accuracy, and 2) allows more interaction between the gamer and his or her game...THAT is what makes the touch screen so attractive to non-gamers and gamers alike...

[PaLaDiN]

What I see it as is, it's just different.

There are games that use the stick that are better with sticks, and there are games that use the touchscreen that are definitely better with the touchscreen. Can you imagine Yoshi with a stick?

I think you're vastly oversimplifying things by relating repetitiveness with lack of abstractness. The same could be said for analog sticks in relation to dpads. The same exact editorial could have been made about analog sticks and fighting games, because don't kid yourself, there already are and will be games that would be completely out of the reach of what analog can offer.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

I think most gamers expected the DS's games to be all Nectar and Honey straight off the bat, rather than realizing there would be a learning curve for developers and there would be flaws and limitations in the game controls early on.

[RickPowers]

Just going to throw in my two sense here.

Pocket PC and Palm devices have had touch-screens for YEARS.  And yet, if you look at the games available for them, the touch-screen is RARELY used, or is simply used as a pseudo-mouse.  I'm not entirely sure what it was that Nintendo thought would be so innovative about putting one in the DS, but the platforms that have been available until now haven't seen much in the way of unique gameplay.  I certainly don't discount the possibility that there is room for improvement and imagination, but there is a fair amount of history working against it.

Jonny has a point about your hand being visible when you're playing, which makes it hard to go on autopilot.  But for me, I find that my hand is, more often than not, obscuring the screen.  In fact, I'm not entirely sure that this isn't why the games on Pocket PC that use the touch-screen aren't turn-based or low-action games!

Quite frankly, I'm kind of surprised that Nintendo would miscalculate in this way, which leads me to beleive that they've got something planned on the first-party side.  Unfortunately, the strength of a platform is almost always measured by the third party support, and the slow-trickle of games at the present time is hardly reassuring.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

I think the key is for developers to start thinking of the DS as a mini-PC with a keyboard mouse setup

[Bill Aurion]

How to Hold Your Stylus 101

[RickPowers]

Just one problem with that, Bill.  Not everyone holds a pen (or stylus) the same way.  Plus, holding it in that manner introduces alignment and perspective tricks that can make you less accurate.

[vudu]

^ ... Nevermind that the "wrong" way has the stylus touching the screen a good half inch to the left of the "right" way.

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Everyone I've introduced the DS to would probably love to disagree about the touch screen being ineffective for games, especially casual gamers like my mother and sister.

That's because for your mom and sis (and most casual gamers), pressing buttons and/or using the d-pad is even more abstract than using the stylus.

[Bill Aurion]

I've personally had zero problems with accuracy... *points to 90ish Wario Ware scores*  It all boils down to coordination...

(Kingvudu: MEH!  I had to take the picture with my left hand, so I was too busy trying to hold it right to notice...I can take another picture if you'd like... )

[Ian Sane]

Once you have to tell someone the proper way to work game controls you've failed at controller design.  It should be blatantly obvious so that 99% of people instantly hold the thing correctly.

It's similiar to when Sony was telling gamers to adapt to their screwed up PSP button.  Telling DS gamers to adapt to holding a pen a certain way is not consumer friendly.  Plus I find holding my hand side ways to tap downward is hard on my wrist.  It's not ergonomic.

[Jonnyboy117]

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Originally posted by: kingvuduThat's because for your mom and sis (and most casual gamers), pressing buttons and/or using the d-pad is even more abstract than using the stylus.

Well, the D-pad is more abstract.  That's why it's more immersive.  You don't have think about it as much because pressing the D-pad has no real-life correlation.  Drawing lines does.  Yes, the touch screen is more intuitive and easier to use for casual gamers, and I'm sure that figured heavily in Nintendo's decision to use it.  But speaking as a gamer, and writing for an audience largely on the gamer side of the industry, the touch screen has little to offer me so far.  Nintendo has yet to show that it can be used to create new types of REAL GAMES (not just mini-games) that will occupy us for hours on end.  Maybe Yoshi is the first, we'll see in a couple more weeks.

Also, I don't buy the argument that we'll "get used to" touch input like we did for analog joysticks.  When you design a game that has to be displayed on the lower screen in order to be played, the player always has to see his or her hand while playing, no matter how good or "used to" the touch screen he or she has become over the months and years of owning a DS.  The visual barrier to immersion is independent of skill with the device.  Nintendo was smart to include the upper screen so you could play touch-sensitive games without looking at your hand, but so far there are few examples of games that use the dual screens in this way.

As the DS is developing so far, here's one way to classify the software:

1. Casual games are played on the touch screen.
2. Real games are played on the top screen.

[PaLaDiN]

Castlevania is played on the touch screen.

"Also, I don't buy the argument that we'll "get used to" touch input like we did for analog joysticks. When you design a game that has to be displayed on the lower screen in order to be played, the player always has to see his or her hand while playing, no matter how good or "used to" the touch screen he or she has become over the months and years of owning a DS."

If you're saying that seeing your hand takes you away from the game, then not only the DS but the GBA and the PSP all suffer from that problem. It's not like you wear blinders when playing any of them. Just like with the GBA, eventually you'll learn to relegate your hands to your peripheral vision. It's just a matter of seeing your hands as tools to effect onscreen actions, which is pretty much what you do with any videogame. I got the gist of it playing Metroid Hunters at a demo kiosk within minutes, and switching to the top screen control style didn't add anything to the immersion.

[Bill Aurion]

Once you have to tell someone the proper way to work game controls you've failed at controller design. It should be blatantly obvious so that 99% of people instantly hold the thing correctly.

The point is that I SHOULDN'T have to tell anyone how to hold it... =P  It should be obvious that you need to hold the stylus in a manner that doesn't block the screen...If you complain about it, then you are complaining about the innovation of touch-screen gaming as a whole (since there is no way around it), and that's just plain stupid, in my opinion...And the Sony PSP example is bogus, as using a touch-screen is more akin to becoming adaptive to a new controller rather than adapting to a defect...

[Ian Sane]

"The point is that I SHOULDN'T have to tell anyone how to hold it"

So we're all stupid or what?  Nintendo shouldn't design something with the idea that everyone thinks like you.  This isn't like pushing face buttons with your fingers.  This has to do with how one holds a pen when they write.  There's no universal conclusion that nearly everyone comes to.

How do you work a touchscreen ATM?  Do you hold your hand to the side so you can see what the buttons say as you're pressing them or do you read them and then press them with no regard to where your hand is?  Most touchscreen input that people are used to consists of reading a screen and then touching it.  The whole idea of playing a game with a touchscreen is pretty new so you can't just assume people are going to use some special method that they have never had to use with other touchscreen applications.  

[RickPowers]

I think Jonny's got this one nailed, and the rest of you are making great points as well.

I've been taking classes in Game Design as part of my college track, just for fun.  One of my instructors is Hardy Lebel, one of the level designers on Halo, now at Zipper Interactive.  One of the things he stressed early on is that the transparency of the controls is one of the keys to making a great game.  The DS instantly cripples any attempt at making the controls transparent, because your own freakin' hand will get in the way of the game.  Maybe there's a way around this, maybe it's possible to use a touch-screen in a more intuitive (read: less deliberate) way.

I think the point about having to think about how to hold the stylus is very astute as well.  The gamer should not be made to fight the controls, and having to "learn" how to hold a stylus is big mistake.  Another problem is that even if you want to use a thumb or finger, the way you hold the DS interferes.  There is simply no comfortable way to hold the unit and use the touch-screen that works for EVERYONE.  Each player needs to find a solution that works for them, which requires a certain amount of experimentation, something I can't imagine everyone will bother with.  For the record, I have yet to finish gathering more than a couple of stars in Super Mario 64 DS, because it's so damned hard to hold the device and work the "pseudo-analog control" at the same time!

Here's an idea, though.  Touch-pads on PC's have the ability to tell how hard someone is pressing it (by the amount of surface area being touched).  Perhaps that could factor into a game mechanic some how.

[vudu]

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One of my instructors is Hardy Lebel, one of the level designers on Halo

Wow.  Can you fail your professor?

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For the record, I have yet to finish gathering more than a couple of stars in Super Mario 64 DS, because it's so damned hard to hold the device and work the "pseudo-analog control" at the same time!

Use the D-pad in conjunction the B button.  I found it to be much better than the pseudo-analog.

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Touch-pads on PC's have the ability to tell how hard someone is pressing it (by the amount of surface area being touched). Perhaps that could factor into a game mechanic some how.

It's a neat idea, but it doesn't seem very accurate.  Unless there was a way to calibrate it, a person with big fingers would always trigger a "hard press" regardless of pressure applied.  Even then, if my hand begins to cramp while play (or I shift positions) and as a result I'm now using the "palm" of my index finger instead of the tip, the DS will register my input incorrectly.  Not to mention that a game with this feature would require the user to use his or her finger instead of the stylus or thumb-strap.