Topic: LOZ: 2005

[nemo_83]

My favorite Zelda is LttP.  It is perfect.  It is the greatest game ever made.  It is even better than Super Mario Bros 3.


Now I want to propose a question related to backwards compatablity between the Cube and the REV.  Let us assume that the following truly is the technology that makes "touching good, but feeling better."

http://www.demo.com/demo2/demonstrators/novint.html

http://www.demo.com/demo2/demonstrators/video/novint.asx

The REV will launch with the entire Cube lineup including this new Zelda, but will we be able to use the REV controller to do things in our Cube games we could never do before like aim in Metroid Prime or swing our sword in Zelda?

[Ian Sane]

"The REV will launch with the entire Cube lineup including this new Zelda, but will we be able to use the REV controller to do things in our Cube games we could never do before like aim in Metroid Prime or swing our sword in Zelda?"

That would require them to plan their games way in advance and I doubt they did that.  Plus it's not like Zelda is a sword simulation or something.  It's never been much more than "push the button and you swing the sword" so it's not like if you had some new motion controller that Zelda would suddenly have intricate detailed sword fighting.  At best you would swing the sword and it would do the exact same thing a button press (which requires no arm strain) would do.

[nemo_83]

they would not have to program the sword swings anymore so things actually become more simple.  you control the swing of the sword.  

i think this could be used without programming ahead of time, though they still have time to do that programming if it were needed for this one Zelda game.  this would make the REV a must buy, even if you have already played through the next Zelda by the time the REV is released.  sword fighting is not the focus of Zelda, but it is a part of it.  in fact all of the weapons in zelda including the bow and fishing pole would work better with force feedback.

[Hostile Creation]

Ian's point is that controlling the sword is pointless when pressing A is much simpler and more effective.

[Ian Sane]

"they would not have to program the sword swings anymore so things actually become more simple. you control the swing of the sword."

What?  That doesn't make any sense.  Designing motion sensor swinging would be much harder to design and program.

"i think this could be used without programming ahead of time"

Well I guess you could just map certain motions to be specific button pushes like you do a vertical slice and the game reads it as forward+B.  I think that's how you do a vertical thrust, the controls are so intuitive that I don't even think about what I'm pushing which is why I don't see why there's any real need to change things.  So let's assume they can do the button mapping thing.  What advantage does that give you?  It's still the same moves.  One advantage of really swinging is that it would give you better control so you could cut and slice exactly where you want to.  The only way to do that would be with extra programming already there which they likely won't do.

And personally I think a sword swinging game deserves it's own title.  The concept is unique enough that you could make a neat fighting game out of it.

[Miyamoto Osaki]

Ok lets get this straight, the Rev conteoller is to make your feel like your in the game correct. Why would they want to complicate the controller even futher, I mean its a great idea nemo_83 cause I know that I want to hack and slash that gannon to smaller pieces with my own hands(wouldnt you guys want the same) but Ian is right that it would take to long and they likely wont do it.

But lets look into the game futher. Now i want to get the sword fighting in here. You guys know that there will be new stuff to await like sowrd fighting on the horse(I wonder if they herd my pled for horse back sword fighting) I think they should put more button combination onto the sword fighting and other items. It would take a hell of a lot of time, but image the result. Your surronded by gannons soliders and you do a spin attack, a full circle with the analog stick and the push of B, then you push the A button and then push down on the analog stick, you see Link pull off a spin attack then a slash leap forward, killing all foes around him.
But i must stop becuase I know you guys will say its only a dream.

[Hostile Creation]

It's only a dream, Miyamoto Osaki.

[Caterkiller]

Since the Revelution will be backwards compatible, wouldn't it be safe to assume that there would be a  GameCube controller port to plug into and play the old games just like we do now and did when they first came out? If the new controller is as different as I think it is I would think Nintendo would do that.

[IceCold]

Yes, or if it is a wireless hub, Nintendo could design Gamecube AND Rev controllers that are wireless.

[nemo_83]

i think that two haptic controllers make things more simple.  

The developer would lock the cursor in 3D onto the hand of the character allowing you to puppeteer the character's body with your arm movements like having two 3D mice.  They even said on one of the sites that this technology can be made to work with current games.  But games that are specifically designed for it will be able to take greater advantage of its force feedback.

The gamer as a result needs fewer finger functions on the controller as the haptic controller allows things like aiming, jumping, moving, and using the character's hands to be controlled by the gamers hands rather than through the thumb.  Think SuperDS.

[mantidor]

I think it would make the control more difficult, you'll require certain skill to make Link move, while you dont need one with current controllers, you just push a button to make him swing his sword.

As for the fighting system of the new game, we saw already in the trailer a downthrust move, and even some punching, Im sure there are some surprises awaiting for us  

[Caterkiller]

"...you'll require certain skill to make Link move, while you dont need one with current controllers..."

Not exactly Mantidor,  we have been playing 3D games since forever, but people who almost never play games have a difficult time just running Mario or Link into a strait line.  

I just introduced a super non-gaming co-worker to WW. And using the... Oh wait a sec, I see your talking about the sword play, never mind. I thought you were taking about the analog stick. But who knows, using your arm to really swing could possibly be just as easy and more fun.

[norebonomis]

unless there is full sensory immersion, ala matrix 'jacking in' i don't want to have to swing my arm to make zelda fight. this is lame. creative, but lame. lame lame lame.

[Hostile Creation]

I bet you feel very self-conscious and insecure while playing games, don't you?  Heck, anytime really.  I don't know why you don't go out and buy a Playstation, to satisfy all your not-lame needs, Mr. Not Lame McGee.

[Miyamoto Osaki]

hehehe good one
but honestly, I dont want to move my arm or my wrist, I just want to relax and drink my mountain dew while kicking some ass, so im with you norebonomis

[Hostile Creation]

Oh, I basically agree with him.  In the sense that I don't think swinging your arm to swing a sword is particularly worthwhile.  But saying that you won't do it because it's lame is just about the most retarded thing I've heard.  Screw your illusions of dignity and have fun.  Chances are if you're too ashamed to swing your arm while playing a game people don't think very highly of you anyway.

[Miyamoto Osaki]

If i have to move my arm then i will, and i dont think of it as lame, i just think of it as theres no point in doing it becuase there is a easier way of moving Link.

[Rellik]

I wouldn't imagine full-body motion would be a basis for an entire system/control interface, either.

After all, Nintendo is all for MORE accessable control and gameplay.  Little kids wouldn't have the same ability to swing Link's sword as more mature people with longer/faster arms - that much alone would dissuade Nintendo from such a system.

As such, although I do believe that the Revolution controller will incorporate limited bodily motion as some form of control, I think we can rule out any full-fledged bodily control of the sort that would actually allow you to puppeteer the action on-screen.  And I doubt that the upcoming Zelda will be forward-compatible with new Revolution features, seeing as the Revolution probably won't be finalized by the time Zelda comes out.

As for Revolution Zelda... well, to use a generic example, say the bodily control is in the form of an xy tilt-'n-tumble plane - tilt forward, back, left, right.  The whole idea is to enhance the intuitiveness of control.  So I picture it being used in place of an analog stick - probably as the main motion control device.  I would assume both Gamecube analog sticks would remain present on the controller for the sake of compatibility - and having 3 analog controls accessible at one time would be useful (5 if you count the shoulders).

In addition to the tilt-'n-tumble sensor, another cool thing would be a torque sensor (a little more far-fetched).  Basically, any semi-rapid motion twisting the controller left or right would register as an analog input (by the rapiditidy of said motion).  Zelda usage: camera swing.  Want to see left, twist quickly to the left and you get a quick camera swing - unfortunately, this presents various problems of it's own.  Hey, this is fun - conjecture is an enjoyable pastime.

Or maybe there's just a gyroscope right in the middle of the controller - not only does it stabilize the controller so that it's easier to keep it in an upright position without accidentally tilting it, but it provides a mechanism for force feedback.  Has this been suggested yet?  It can offer varying resistance to tilting the controller - a classic example would be in a racing minigame, trying to turn the wheel, the farther it goes, the harder it is.  In a fishing minigame, when you're casting, the resistance goes down so the cast feels faster - when you're reeling in, resistance goes up, as you're fighting the fish.  Obviously, it's not going to actually stop you from turning it, but it gives you an intuitive cue of tension and resistance in the on-screen physical action.

In Zelda, during horse-riding, the resistance would increase when you try to "rein back", whereas there would be little resistance to tilting the controller forward.  All controlled by the speed of the gyroscope, which would have to be very light for its speed to be able to be changed in a small fraction of a second.  In battle, when you receive a hit from a moblin sword, resistance goes up exponentially to any direction but back, away from the screen, until you recover - this lets you "feel" the impact of the hit, and the direction of the character's motion.

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: Rellik

Or maybe there's just a gyroscope right in the middle of the controller - not only does it stabilize the controller so that it's easier to keep it in an upright position without accidentally tilting it, but it provides a mechanism for force feedback.  Has this been suggested yet?

Yes, it's been discussed to death. It would be innovative but quite hard to implement.

[Hostile Creation]

Okay enough discussion on Revolution Zelda which should be in the Revolution thread.  This is Legend of Zelda 2005 k thx

[norebonomis]

lol, k thx. stfu!

[Miyamoto Osaki]

you should of replied when you had the chance.
Does anyone know any more things that will be new to the game?

[nemo_83]

This game is going to be on REV.  That is why I brought it up.  I am hoping they allow us to use the Falcon, if it really is the REV controller, with our GameCube games.  It gives me a real reason to be excited the games I already own are going to be forwards compatible with REV.  Frankly I don't care if the REV improves the visuals or load times on Cube games.  I want to be able to control my Cube games with the REV controller.  With this Falcon it will be fun to simply cut the grass in Zelda again.

I have played a sword simulator game.  The graphics were horrible and it was on rails, but I had more fun with it than with Soul Calibur 2 because I could do anything with the sword and it would do it on screen.  I can tell you right now that as long as it does not turn every game on REV into a simulator this mechanic would work great as an aspect of the control in real games like Zelda and Metroid.  Let us assume the REV itself costs two hundred dollars next fall with the graphics of NextBox, but you pay three hundred and fifty dollars for REV because it comes with two Falcon style controllers and most of the launch games like SSB and Mario only require one handed play meaning you really get two player out of the box.

[mantidor]

one thing you havent mentioned Nemo is price, this technology is cool and all, but it is cheap? its affordable by the average console user? that also should be take into account.

New things in the game... aside from the horseback combat nothing is certain, in the traillers there are some scenes where Link punches an stalfo, but its not like 100% clear, so Im not sure.

[Myxtika1 Azn]

This is off-topic, but Nemo, I'm interested in knowing what that sword simulator game is called.  Was it in the arcades? Or can it purchased for home use?