Topic: Editorial: PlayStation or Xbox?

[Jonnyboy117]

Please use this thread to discuss Jonny's new editorial, found here:

PlayStation or Xbox?

[MaleficentOgre]

Its never been more clear that NOA's marketing sucks than this years holiday titles. whenever people ask a question its alway halo 2 or gta.  Never is MP2 mentioned, and whenever I bring it up I'm automatically labeled as fanboy.  "MP2 is going to be the same as the first" is all I ever hear about the game.  Somewhere along the line the single player campaign of Halo 2, which no one legally knows about, became the best thing ever.  If nintendo is ever going to survive its going to learn to market its games better.  Become a bigger force in the industry.  I don't have the answers but I'd say kicking yamauchi in the head is a good start.  I know he's the reason nintendo is here in the first place, but his time has come and gone, he's like big daddy joe-pa.  I think nintendo as a company is afraid to do anything he would dissaprove of and that is hurting them a bit.  The silver lining in all this is the DS.  I think its an inspired idea by nintendo to make a platform and call it a third pillar so they can test the waters.  They needed to find out if an older nintendo with fancy new multiplayer skills would be accepted in the marketplace.  Here's to hoping it works, and nintendo can retake their rightful place as the undisputed king of video games.

[Lokno]

My answer is decidedly "neither." Nintendo will weather this storm, and they'll be back on top, that I’m sure of. For proof of that, realize what they’re up against, and that they’re still making money in the face of it. In the short term, I’m glad to have PM2, the finest Mario RPG yet.

[Famicom]

While it reads more like a mini-rant than a full editorial, I do agree with your thoughts on the topic. As a college student myself, the game buzz I hear is never about Nintendo or the GC. That usually leads to me not participating in said conversations, but it's kinda disheartening as a big Nintendo fan myself to see my favorite out of the public eye of choice. While I (and others) can play the whole "I don't care what anyone else thinks because I'm satisfied" role, it's not good for the future of our little system if no one's paying attention to it. Taking a quick glance at the 10 most popular pages over on Gamespot, not a single GC game is on the list. Kinda bad considering the holiday season is approaching, but the hype isn't building.

[Ian Sane]

"I know a lot of people at Nintendo of America, and I try to be honest with them when we discuss how the company is doing. When I say that marketing is their biggest problem, sometimes they are shocked."

I certainly didn't like reading that.  I mean it's these people's job to be on the ball.  If we can see that marketing is their biggest problem and they can't then they're really in trouble.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised since they've been doing the same types of ads for the last three years with nothing to show for it.  It's hard to think of what would help.  I think NOA admiting there's a freaking problem would be a start.  They seem to either have no clue they're doing something wrong or don't want to admit it.

One thing that could help is if NOA had more say in what NCL does.  NCL really has a Japan-only mindset and that can handcuff NOA.  Making Zelda a cartoon and calling the game "Mario Sunshine" and making the console look like a purple toy are all ideas that may work in Japan but have a negative effect in North America.  When they make major decisions and games they need to think of how they'll be accepted in Japan and North America and thus try to find a happy medium between the two.  Look at the company's online stance.  A lot of things they talk about regarding online is based on how things are in Japan.  In North America things are different.  No online = missing feature = bad image.  NCL talks about crap like hot spots in malls as if it's a suitable option.  HELLO!  That doesn't work in North America!  Now NOA isn't off the hook.  They haven't figured out that demo discs work better when they're widely available yet so they're not getting my total forgiveness.

In Other Systems I wrote a long post about what Nintendo has to do to win back third parties.  A lot of it relates to public perception as well.

Ideally the best thing they could do is try something new.  The same dumb "0.001% gameplay footage ads with dorks in costumes" and Fusion tours no one knows about and kiddy Nintendo Power magazine and in store demos haven't worked for YEARS.  So ditch them and try something different.  Maybe at least try what Sony does since MS has copied them a bunch and it's paid off.  At least accept that you have no clue and the current method is completely broken.

[Jonnyboy117]

I have high hopes for the DS, and it looks like maybe Nintendo is going to market it better than they have other systems, but this editorial was about GameCube.

Lokno, if you're satisfied with the game selection on GameCube and with the prospects of even worse publisher support next generation if Nintendo can't convince consumers AND publishers that they are a real contender, then I guess this editorial isn't for you.  I am not satisfied with how GameCube has fared in America, and it does bother me that many games are released on PS2 and Xbox but not on GameCube.  I don't want the next system to have these same problems.  It doesn't really matter to me whether Nintendo is making money or not.  I just want a system that I can play the newest Metroid, ESPN NFL, Burnout, and GTA on.  GameCube should be that system, but it's not.

[Pale]

I honestly don't think marketing is their biggest problem right now.  Its the percieved value of the nitnendo as a kiddie system.  That isn't something NOA can get rid of unless they abandon making games for all ages completely....which would be the worst idea ever.  Right now I would probably say its about 75/25 all ages games vs. adult games....  Even if that approached 50/50, the only games the public would see are the all ages games.  Its a tough situation for nintendo because they can't just abandon what is making them money right now.  It pains me to say it, but I really think nintendo just has to bring that ration closer to 50/50 and then do something really innovative with online gameplay.  It needs to be free...and it needs to be perfect...flawless....and well...perfect...  I still hold out hope that this demasked stuff may be the beginning of that.

[Robageejammin]

Ah, so this is Planet Gamecube on a bad day...yea, we all have em. I just had one (of many) last week with another Nintendo bashing on tech tv I believe. This ass comes on and says how Nintendo's gonna drop out of "the race" accompanied with a nice little flash animation of a ps2 and xbox running forward and a Gamecube tripping behind. The sad thing is that 2 second flash animation will probably sway lots of ignorant sons of...i mean... casual gamers. Yes, its true that Nintendo's image needs to drastically change, but for once, I truly think they're aware of this and are giving it their all to try and change it...with the balance of having the "Nintendo difference". Its a hard route, but I for one am proud of Nintendo for straying away from most of the popular garbage thats out there today. Right now, I honestly couldnt be happier with Nintendo's motives. If they play their cards right for the next generation, I think Nintendo can..well...save the videogame industry. Sorry if thats a little too optimistic for you guys, but its the truth. The quality (and no i dont mean graphics) of games in my opinion is at a very harsh decline mostly due to the casual gamer's view of a"good game". Today, I saw an abominable sight at my Gamestop...a line going not only out the door, but 3 stores down. For what you ask? Well none other than the next brilliant GTA game of course. Sorry Rockstar, great idea, but i'd pick Spiderman 2 over the gaming sell-out any day. My point is that games like Metroid Prime, Pikmin, Eternal Darkness, Skies of Arcadia, Warioware, Tales of Symphonia, Viewtiful Joe, Wind Waker, and Animal Crossing were never even close to that kind of line. Meanwhile, these games are a million times better than GTA ever was or will be. It will take some time for people to actually realize this, but with Nintendo's plans for a gaming Revolution, and competitors plans for a beefed up rehashing machine, Nintendo might just make an overdue dent in the system. Anyway, i'll stop taking up this whole page now. I have to say, Its nice to know that even the most respected fans like Jonny have their bad Nintendo days. Don't we all...

[Jonnyboy117]

Ian, I have spoken with people at Nintendo Power magazine who say they would love to include demo discs, but NCL won't let them.  I think your comments about the relationship between NOA and NCL are exactly right, and I know things in that regard that would probably upset you greatly.  That may be the topic of my next editorial.  At least there is some good news on that topic, though.  The America-first launch of Nintendo DS is a good sign that NCL is thinking more about the (larger) American market with their new systems, and from what I've heard, Reggie is being given unprecedented decision-making power from the execs at NCL.  They seem to believe in him and are giving him more freedom to steer NOA's future.  I hope that is indeed the case.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
from what I've heard, Reggie is being given unprecedented decision-making power from the execs at NCL.  They seem to believe in him and are giving him more freedom to steer NOA's future.  I hope that is indeed the case.

Excuse the smallness of my comment, but I like hearing news like this.  Some indication of progress.

[WindyMan]

Yes, Nintendo has Reggie now.  The savior will bring us to the promised land.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Perhaps I only hang around nerds in my Computer Science Lab, but I had a conversation about the Commodore 64, Amiga, and NES MMC chips just last week.  But, hey, what's one CSL lab monitor versus the general consumer base of ultra-realism, gore-loving gamers?  

[MysticGohan24]

lol, do you really wanna ask that Ty? heh.

I know the feeling

It's good to hear such progress is being made. It seem's NCL has confidence in Reggie's abilities.
I hope this means NOA will have more power in decision making and bringing stuff over.

it's time to grow ( expanding, which NOA has been wanting/needing )

[Berto2K]

Hopefully, some of this giving of power stems form Iwata as well.  In the past Yamauchi held a strong-hold on anything.  Now, as gaming has matured as an industry (although still young), powers need to be balanced where they are best used.  

As far as games go on the Cube, I am happy.  Yes there are games I wanted to come to Cube, and was dissapointed when they didn't.  Games that were coming to Cube and then canned.  Public image has a huge deal in this as it is a catch 22.  More people buy the system, more games come out.  More games come out, more people buy the system.  Which do you go after first?  Personally I think that you have to deliver the games first and the rest will come later.  Part of the delivery of the games is the marketing of them.  Market wrong, and the game could bomb like Beyond Good and Evil.  If NOA and NOJ can cooperate to give Reggie the power he needs to make his magic work, I can see good things happening for Nintendo.

[gally]

I feel like a minority myself - being one who, for instance, likes cartoons, but only story-telling oriented ones rather than humorous ones. Then, when people know I like cartoons for their story-telling, they assume I like Japanese cartoons and/or melodramatic cartoons with twisting story arcs, when I'm not really a big fan of either. My niche is hardly there - it was in abundance in the 80s, but is not really there today.

In a way, Nintendo is also similar in that it was in abundance in the 80s and was doing well, and it was not a niche. If you liked video games, you liked Nintendo, and there were many types of games out there, while people had little prejudice over which types you liked. Nowadays, if you like games, people have their assumptions. I happen to like both Billy Hatcher and Battlefield Vietnam. Both Serious Sam and Zelda: Wind Waker. Can't people, if nothing else, tolerate the unpopular tastes more?

"Nintendo's for kids, isn't it?" someone asked at the pool a couple summers ago, when I mentioned the Gamecube. Not out of malice, but just casually asking. I mentioned that I happened to like it, and he said "that's cool", but you know...that whole "is for kids, right?" is annoying. Nintendo needs to put themselves on the tips of people's tongues again - become synonymous with video games the way they were in the 80s. I remember someone saying that Nintendo shouldn't try to "out-Sony Sony" at their own game, but instead strive for a "neutral" image. I hope Reggie's new marketing ideas help bring about that "neutral" image, without losing the family-friendliness that I think helps Nintendo in certain ways (i.e. various parents buy their systems for their kids). Anyone know if Reggie is behind the DS campaign being started now?

Yup, I feel like a minority all right... And don't get started on my taste in movies. Anyone hear of Jan Svankmajer's Alice? I thought not.  

[cartman414]

I remember when I first got the opportunity to check out the Metroid Prime 2: Echoes demo a month or so ago, this other kid who came up to watch me play asked, "Is that Halo 2?" I rest my case.

[ruby_onix]

I agree with Jonny, it does seem that most people in America (outside of GameCube owners) don't believe that the GameCube even exists.

According to recent NPD numbers, the landscape is spread out at about 25 million (PS2) vs 9.8 million (Xbox) vs 7.8 million (GameCube). Yet some people honestly seem to think that the XBox has a shot at beating the PS2, while the GameCube is going to drive Nintendo into oblivion. What's wrong with these people? And that's not even getting into the amazing financial differences between the two consoles.

But then again, this shouldn't surprise me. I remember the hoardes of people ignorantly claiming that the PSone was more powerful than the N64. And before that were the people claiming that the Genesis was more powerful than the SNES, because of it's superior clock speed. Stupidity is a very powerful tool. And Nintendo's favorite "make great games, and wait for word of mouth to spread" advertising technique requires that the masses have brains, so it doesn't always work.

I think one of the things helping the XBox is the fact that it failed miserably in Japan. Yes, I'm saying that actually helped it, at least, it did in America. The XBox got pidgeonholed as "the American console". I've seen intervies with a number of Japanese developers who said the picked the XBox because the games they make are "American-style", so they wanted to make games for "that console that's popular in America". I wouldn't think that Japanese developers could possibly be that stupid, but I guess they are sometimes. I mean, the console that's popular in America is the PS2. Just look at MGS3. This effect isn't helping the GameCube at all, because when a Japanese developer wants to make a Japanese game, they just pick the PS2.

I don't think this "image problem" could ever prove fatal to Nintendo, but if they really want to do better, they have to go all-out in trying to fix things. No half-measures. Nintendo seems to pull it's own punches far too often.

I do believe that as a "third party friendly" company, Nintendo has come a long way and learned a lot, but they're still not what they could be. Like for instance, I'm quite floored that Sega's "Feel The Magic" is going to be a DS launch title, but lets take this one step further. Do I believe that say, Konami will be making a "Tokimeki Memorial" title for the Revolution? Heck no! Gainax's "Princess Maker 4" is being made in Japan, exclusively for the PS2. Could I see a GameCube port happening? Hah! That's a joke.

Right now, I believe that games like Feel The Magic and BMX XXX (which is a bad example because it was garbage) are "token games", and don't reflect on Nintendo becoming an "open" home for a diverse selection of developers. Resident Evil? That was Nintendo not looking a gold-plated gift horse in the mouth.

Hey Nintendo! If you want to change this, you have to do everything in your power to make things better.

By the way, halting your production of the GameCube mere weeks before a price cut, then having major shortages, killing your entire momentum, was just an awesome idea [/sarcasm].

Here's a thought, what would've happened if you decided to risk losing $50 on the price of the Cube back at that price drop? It would've been a mere $50, wouldn't it? Do you think that would've maybe moved a few systems? Oh wait, you were supposedly at your maximum production capacity at the time, weren't you? Do you think it was even possible for you to have beaten the XBox in America, let alone the PS2?

[Bloodworth]

Nintendo needs games as unique and dramatic as GTA or Halo and they really need a solid stream of them.  Old franchises are no good, as I think Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid have probably proven by now.

However, I think the stigma Nintendo has may not be fully broken for a few generations.  I've got a hunch that one of the biggest reasons that Nintendo has the "it's for kids" feel is because that's embedded in people's memories.  When you were a kid, you played Nintendo. When you were a teenager you "grew out" of Nintendo.  And when you were an adult you picked up a Playstation because the games explored darker emotions.  Nintendo has to do something to get people to notice them really, because I think the ones that continue to think that Nintendo's for kids wrote Nintendo off some time ago and simply stopped paying attention to what they're doing now.

[KDR_11k]

Reggie is the VP of marketing, you can assume that he at least has a major say when it comes to ads. After all, thats what he's been hired to do.

[Plugabugz]

I reckon that they should start small and work up to the larger problems.

Europe and Australia have a bigger problem then Japan and the USA. The Donkey Konga ads are absolutely awful. I saw a full 1 minute version which just cointained a small video of gameplay followed up with people jumping around and then £89.99: Only for Nintendo Gamecube.

I feel Nintendo should firstly concentrate on more productive ways of using their existing expenditure before they start spending on anything else.

[Caillan]

Before I say anything else, I would like to make what I feel is the most important and overlooked point regarding this argument: Nintendo's dev kits are crap. There recently was a game developer's conference at my local university, and several quite famous (albeit mainly for their writing) developers attended. When asked why they made their games for the PS2 and XBox but not the Cube, they cited nothing but the fact that they weren't going to pay twice the normal price for a bullshit divelopment kit. Subsidising dev kits should be considered an investment. Nintnedo's recent cooperative work with third parties has been very nice, producing good games like F-Zero GX, but they need to go a step further and just do something about the the dev kits so everyone can get along. If there is a really big game, like Vice City, give the dev kits out free and offer to pay wholey for the publishing costs. Gurantee that Rockstar could not lose any money at all from a Cube port of Vice City.

Regarding image, Ruby Onix is definately right when he/she/it (?) says that it cannot kill Nintendo. Even with the worst image possible, Nintendo's held a financially viable position. The XBox, coolest of the cool kids in the krypts, had a financial deficit of $143000000US in the September quater. Though this might not matter for Microsoft, Nintendo would definately be suffering from a loss like that. Overall, the Cube is roughly equal in terms of sales (give or take a few million) with the XBox worldwide. As there is no way anyone could possibly argue that Nintendo's advertising has any sort of positive effect upon its image, ditch the TV adds/whatever they do over there and just secure the right games. Word of mouth will do the rest.  

[JHarris]

Here's how I think Nintendo could solve their problems:

Nintendo really needs a Halo-like buzz game.  The N64 had them in the form of Ocarina of Time and Mario 64, but there have been few of those buzz-games this generation.  Wind Waker could have been one but alas, most gamers are, let's be honest, know-nothing jerks who will dismiss something at the slightest excuse.  You can argue the day is long that they were wrong to dismiss Wind Waker -- and you'd be right, painfully right.  But when all is said and done, they don't *have* to become enlightened enough to find out what they're missing.  Unfortunately the coolest parts of Wind Waker were at the end, in that incredible endgame.  All you have to do to show a "I am a tremendous clownboat."-spounting know-nothing how actually cool the game is is to let them watch you go down to sunken Hyrule, through the castle, through Ganon's Tower and beat the big bad guy himself with Zelda on support, with those torrents of water flowing all around.  It would shut up almost anyone.

One thing Nintendo could do this is to take their shiny U.S. development arm and make a purposely, shallowly trendy game.  It's not hard.  Something that looks cheap and trashy, probably involving a female protagonist wearing a bikini and with a sword and magic powers or some such, killing demons and committing drive-by shootings or something.  It'd at least shatter their family-friendly reputation*.  But put some actual gameplay behind it; that's the key.  It'd also help if, behind the trashy veneer, there was some sort of subtle commentary on the proceedings.

If the game looks cool enough, people will buy it, and thus the system, just for that.  Most people, these days, buy games based solely on how they look in demos and the box art.  Most gamers these days are not particularly sophisticated folks.  An "introduction" game,  made specifically for them, could do wonders for Nintendo's fortunes.

* Yeah, I know Nintendo's not just for kids.  I know that Metroid Prime is great, and so is Eternal Darkness.  But Eternal Darkness, while very dark, was also not tremendously accessable to Joe Gamer.  I loved it to death, but then again I read Lovecraft.  Most gamers don't even read ingredients lists.

[Nephilim]

*sigh* the same old babble since 99
Nintendo are doing a good job

on the case of excluding the system, its just normal.
I have often heard people question which is better or even been asked "do you own a ps2 or xbox"
People just need to realize that video gaming isnt mario and sonic anymore

People seem to think that its just new, passing off a machine
they need to remember back in the genesis vs snes days
I remember often being told the fact I own a megadrive is a mistake and snes is 100times better.
The fact is most people at the school had this view.
Does that mean all nintendo fans are the devil? no
Sega gave away 2 games, and a T-shirt and 1 year sub. to there magazine with there megadrive. snes was the unit and a cricket game.
much like today were you get more with the cube, were xbox u just get it and halo or gotham city racing.
didnt make a difference.
Sega spent millions, Nintendo gave away gameboys on a game show and funniest commercials show

You cant force trends
 

[Kulock]

Quote
Originally posted by: DeadlyD
People just need to realize that video gaming isnt mario and sonic anymore

Sorry to just pick out one point, but I really think you should go look up the US sales numbers for the recent Sonic games before making a comment like that. Even though they've done things that have angried some of the fanbase (a fanbase that I'm not sure will EVER be happy with a Sonic game again unless it's published for the Genesis/Mega Drive), the games have still had remarkably high sales, even titles that were presumed to be cheap throw-away efforts, like Sonic Mega Collection. So apparently the buying public still considers at least one of those video gaming. And if Nintendo could ever get around to making a brand new Mario title with some real development effort and polish put into it (I'm sorry, but Sunshine just REEKS of lazyness or poor design in spots, even though there are fun-to-play points)... well, who knows?

[Jonnyboy117]

Some of you have mentioned Super Mario Sunshine.  I think it's a fantastic game that a lot more people should be enjoying, but it was hurt very badly by...you guessed it, marketing.  "Clean is better than dirty."  Ouch.

As far as Nintendo releasing a huge buzz game, that kind of hype is a combination of innovation and marketing.  Nintendo can deliver on the first part, but hype doesn't create itself.