Topic: GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card

[WesDawg]

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Unfortuantly Nintendo wants the only way you can play that way to be if you have 2 GameCubes ($100 each), 2 copies of Mario Kart ($50 each), 2 Broadband adapters ($50 each), 8 controlers ($25 each), and 2 TVs (hopefully you already have these ). That's a grand total of $550.

This is blowing things a bit out of proportion. I think Nintendo was anticipating that at least one of your 8 friends you're playing with would have a Cube, TV, copy of Mario Kart, and probably 4 controllers to go with his Cube. Then all you really need is the two BBA which aren't $50 each if I remember right. Speaking of which, if you guys are really having trouble finding them, write me. I live in Iowa. We get tons of everything and I always see BBAs on the shelves at Target and Best Buy. I remember the weekend the Cube launched it was said to be "sold out" all over the USA, but our local Best Buy had cases full of 'em just sitting around on Black Friday.
In regards to online gaming, I'm not that good of a gamer as is. I don't look forward to the day I can get my ass handed to me by a 12 year old with much fondness anymore. It don't really matter for me yet either though. I don't have broadband and as such, upgrading to online gaming would be a new $50 bill/month for me at least. I'm not ready to pay that yet.
I do take issue with this quote:

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There is exactly one online game on the market. LAN modes are plainly or poorly implemented, and are just now arriving when other systems have had the feature for nearly a decade.

Maybe I'm a dickhead, but I think this is wrong. 10 years ago was 1993.  I was in 9th grade. The N64 wasn't out. The PS1 wasn't out I don't think. In fact, I don't think I even had the internet yet. If people were playing LAN games it was on the PC, and it was a world of different from console LAN gaming. In fact, if you want to say that, then online gaming has also been around for more than a decade. Probably two at this point. There's a difference between what was going on back then and the sort of gaming that's appeared in the last 4 or 5 years. I don't have time to research a history report on it, but the sentence is misleading I think.

In fact, it sorta sums up my whole opinion of the article. I like my Cube. There's plenty good to say about it, but your editorial seems to ignore all that in favor of the bad. In that sence, it's misleading. If you're going to complain, then title you're editorial: "Things Nintendo is doing wrong" and none of us will read it. This is called "Mid-Term Report Card" which makes you think it'll look at both pros and cons.

Third party support is great IMO. First party games have been really mixed, from some of my new favorite games ever, to some that I wonder how they slipped through Miyamoto's glove <cough>Mario Golf<cough>. I loved Grey Ninja's comments on SMS. I've often thought how odd it is that people rave about Super Mario World and hate SMS so much. There are reasons not to love SMS, but it being "non-innovative" ain't one of 'em. Anyways, I wouldn't mind articles like this if they gave some time to pros and cons, but one sentence that says, "I like Nintendo exclusives, but..." ain't objective. It's a pity offering. If you like your Cube, then tell us why. Later you can tell us what your complaints. Just like people do when they review games, or write report cards. Teachers always put good comments and bad ones on, unless you're a real bad student, whcih the Cube ain't. If you're gonna create a "Sports Game" category just to complain about the lack of sports games, then create a Side-Scroller category too, or a fighter one, or a platformer one, or a retro gamer one. That's where the Cube is huge right now. I can play most of the old NES and GENESIS library on it. That's pretty cool.

I don't want to comment on Sports games (cause I hate them), but I think Sony paid to have PS2 online exclusive for EA. It's not really Nintendo's fault that they got left out there. If it wasn't that way, I woulda expected to see them online on XBox too without using LIVE, since that would have required the same about of coding too. Really, Nintendo consoles haven't been the sports consoles since the SNES/Genesis days if I remember right. Not that that fixes everything, but its been a problem for awhile. It just wasn't noticable until the 40 million sports game fans started buying more consoles (hence gaming became a non-nerd activity). Now the disparage between the two is just suddenly obvious.

I figure a C is a pretty good grade. Not great, but pretty average from a console point of view. I just don't agree with the comments you made entirely. Based entirely on the comments, I'd think you'd give the Cube an F yet you call it your favorite system. I don't get that. If you hate it, go buy something else, and write for another site. It's that easy. I don't think you do though, or you probably would.

[Shift Key]

odifiend: Nintendo didn't get its war chest by jumping on to bandwagons willy-nilly. They got it by doing their own thing and doing it better than anyone else. If there was the need for an online game, I'm sure they'd find the best way to implement it PROFITABLY!

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If they really want to stay in the hardware business, it is unacceptable for them not to be exploring something like online gaming.

How about some logic to your flaming?

[Kyosho]

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often thought how odd it is that people rave about Super Mario World and hate SMS so much.

It's the generation thing.  As we get older, our tastes in games becomes different.  

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Third party support is great IMO. First party games have been really mixed, from some of my new favorite games ever

This opinion contradicts a lot of Nintendo fans on this board

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If you like your Cube, then tell us why. Later you can tell us what your complaints

I actually prefer to hear the bad stuff first, then the good stuff.  Easier to get the bad out of the way then focus on what is good in a game.  Also, negatives tend to weigh more when criticizing or analyzing a company.  How often do you see people praising Sony for their games? No one is going to waste their time pointing out things that don't need to be looked at.

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if you think I think Nintendo is infallible, obviously you've read maybe a few sentences from a few of my posts

MC, your general tone in your posts make people feel this way including me.  Re-read some of your posts carefully and see how it relates to others.

[mouse_clicker]

Kyosho, I was accused of being a Sony fanboy not much more than a month now by a man who made some 4 usernames to attack me. It's called persuasive writing- editorials generally fall under that category.

[Kyosho]

Yes, I realize it's a skewed editorial.  However, if people feel that your position promotes Nintendo as infallible, then you didn't do a very good job at persuading.

[mouse_clicker]

No, I led YOU to believe I thought Nintendo was infallible- many other people saw what I was truly getting at, what I even said in my editorial, that while Nintendo's not doing perfect, they're doing just fine.  

[DrZoidberg]

hey guys why don't you take a rage dump?

but online rah!

raaaage dump

[nolimit19]

it does not take billion or millions or trillions to make games online. to be honest, i kind of think nintendo is just being lazy, of concentrating on something big. didnt they get a patent or copyright for some online thing a while back. i dont remember what it was....well forget it. there is no reason for nintendo to not have online games. even if it was just for the hype. sure not many pay for the service or subscribe, but a lot of people do talk about it. if nintendo had a real online plan, no one would complain, and the fact that they dont have one just perpetuates the kiddie image.

[Cowboy Bebop]

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As for Nintendo supporting connectivity instead, it's more popular, more accessible, and best all much cheaper

Could you please provide some proof for this statement.  Please forgive me for not just taking your word for it.  I'd love to know the percentage of people who own a GBA GameCube link cable.  I'd doubt it was very high for the GameCube, and I'd be willing to bet it was less then 5% of the people who own a GBA.  According to your logic, Nintendo is ripping those people off, and anyone who wants connectivity is just being selfish.

[odifiend]

To MC: I know you don't get 6 billion dollars from jumping on the bandwagon.  Actually you get it from controling 70% of the video gaming industry.  And also about your most famous line:
"online gaming only pleases 5% of the players," it seems that you only extrapolated that data so it isn't all that accurrate.  Moreover Nintendo released the e-Reader and since its release it has been scrapped in Europe and pretty much laughed at in North America.  I don't know how it is doing in Japan but I can't imagine it is doing that much better.  I'm guessing the people it is pleasing equates to about 5% so I don't understand why Nintendo would think churning out billions of eReader cards that no one will ever buy profitable, but that online gaming which is becoming increasingly more popular is unreasonable.
To shifty: thanks for repeating exactly what MC has been saying for the past 6 pages.

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If there was the need for an online game, I'm sure they'd find the best way to implement it PROFITABLY!

I'm not so sure I agree with you on that because it is hard to implement anything, especially successfully, if you refuse to constantly explore it.  Psst... just so you know that's the logic to my flaming about exploring online gaming.
Online gaming aside, I ask anyone to tell me what Nintendo's direction is. Iwata says:

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Online video games have been a false start so far, Iwata asserts, which is why he has no plans to lead Nintendo in that direction. The current path taken by game developers toward more cinematic graphics, richer story lines and complicated controls is a blind alley that, he says, will only worsen the current "nothing's new" ennui felt by many consumers.

I agree with Iwata that online gaming has been a false start but this second part is disheartening to any Nintendo fan.  I don't understand his logic and citing Nintendo's sequels, MM: DD!!, SMS, 1080, and Mario Golf, I don't understand how he is breaking the ennui for consumers.  His theory that gamers don't want better graphics and storylines is even more thought provoking and begs the question where else is there to go and what is Nintendo doing to get there.

[Ocarina Blue]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Currently Nintendo hasn't spent a dime on Warp Pipe, because it's not even their project, and yet their game is benefiting from it. Nintendo has the perfect online plan- to let everyone else do the work while they don't do a thing.

Nintendo has lots of resources, the type of stuff the Warp Pipe team and any others attempting to set up a network could only dream of. Warp Pipe is still in beta, and while it is benefiting Nintendo, it will gain much more use in it's fully tested and more user-friendly form. I see what you mean when you say Nintendo is gaining advantage from doing nothing here, but helping Warp Pipe would be a small deed for Nintendo, but a huge help to Warp Pipe, and therefore in the long run, to Nintendo as well. As for Nintendo's biggest aid being to promote LAN to 3rd parties, agreed, but LAN tunnelingis useless without something like Warp Pipe to back it up.

[Mario]

mouse_clicker

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As for Nintendo supporting connectivity instead, it's more popular, more accessible, and best all much cheaper

Connectivity more popular than online gaming? ahahaha

Im sick of you saying the same thing over and over, whenever someone suggests something you bite back with "oh but that wouldnt be profitable for Nintendo". Well boo freaking hoo, it seems like you care more about Nintendo executives getting richer and richer, than what would be best for gaming and gamers. Oh Nintendo are making a profit, isn't that fun everyone!! Yay!

[NWR_Lindy]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker

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It's very self-centered of you to think that Nintendo has to go out of there way to please you.

Huh?  I'm their frigging customer!  They're SUPPOSED to please me because I'm giving them money to do so!  Do you work for Nintendo or something?  Are you really Satoru Iwata?  You sound just like him!

I wouldn't call doing nothing a strategy.  And don't you think that Nintendo's own developers could do a heck of a lot better stuff than what the Warp Pipe guys are doing?

Also, you throw around 5% this, 500,000 that, gimme some URLs.  I don't even know where you're getting these numbers from...my guess is from articles that are a year old.

I love how Nintendo shies away from online gaming because it "isn't profitable", and yet finds the cash to R&D and release Virtual Boy, e-Reader, ROB the Robot, the GameBoy Camera and the 64DD.  I'm sure all of these pieces of hardware gold made Nintendo a TON of money.

silks  

[Jonnyboy117]

PlayStation was released in 1995, if I remember correctly.  It had a port and cable for connecting two of the systems together, which a handful of games supported over the next six years.  1995 was eight, almost nine years ago, which I would consider "nearly a decade".  The Saturn was released even earlier and had the NetLink, which I believe supported both LAN modes and "online" tunneling modes, and again had just a few games with such features.

By the way, 5% of Xbox users having Xbox Live is not as little as it sounds.  GTA III is owned by only 10% of PS2 owners...is it not successful?  Most games are purchased by much less than 5% of the installed base, especially on PS2, and are still considered successes.  Sony grants "Greatest Hits" status to games that sell 250,000 copies, which is far less than 1% of the installed base.  Nintendo's "Player's Choice" games have to sell 400,000 copies, which is around 3% of the GameCube installed base.

And if 5% of Xbox owners using Xbox Live is not successful, how would you characterize the >>>>>>>1% of GameCube owners using GBA connectivity?  I think connectivity is a great idea with plenty of potential, but when Nintendo harps on it as a substantial reason to choose GameCube over the competition and then doesn't support it any better than it has, I didn't have the slightest hesitation in giving the feature an F.  About half of Nintendo's E3 press conference in 2003 was devoted to connectivity.  Of the games shown there, only FFCC has yet to come out.  Pac-Man Vs. is plenty of fun and doesn't cost a dime for us, but how is it helping Nintendo?  It's helping Namco sell a few games, perhaps, but I don't think R: Racing Evolution is going to burn up the charts anymore because it includes a free Pac-Man mini-game.  And it certainly isn't going to attract a lot of people to GameCube over the other systems.  How about the connectivity of The Sims: Bustin' Out, which Will Wright came out on stage to hype with Miyamoto?  All the reviews I've read say it's a dumb gimmick that is not worth bothering with.  What about the connectivity features in most of EA Sports's GameCube titles in 2003?  How many people used those?  Who cares about trading Madden Cards between the GameCube and GBA?  How much did that little feature help the GameCube version sell over the PS2 version?  (Hint: not at all.)  Did you even know such a feature was in Madden 2003?  Most people don't.  This is what I'm talking about as the failure of connectivity.

[manunited4eva22]

In terms of making money off of online, I agree with mouse, you can't make money off of it.  You just really can't.  There are ways to make money off of PC gaming online, such as selling advertising space, selling server space and bandwithe, all that jazz, but really, developers can rarely capitalize on it too much.

As for online gaming, if you really want to get into this, I have been playing DOOM LAN/online since '93.  That is a decade, and frankly online will always be better on PC.  With PC you can create a community that does more than just play games, you can create fanbases that are easily accessable after games, willing to PAY MORE for games, and will more likely participate actively.

Now here me out on this before you go mad.  How many games have voice chat on PC?  Probablly less than xbox live titles, but that doesn't mean much at face value.  There are countless chat programs that can either be had for free or very cheap that allow you to get around this.

Money issues:  I can recall more than a few times where Rick has said something on the lines of 'pc gaming costs a lot more than console gaming.'  He is dead right, absolutely in every way.  But then again, doesn't this say something about PC gamers?  They are more likely to spend more if they are getting what they want?  Now lets contrast this with console gamers.  How much did gamecube go up in sales when the price dropped to 100 bucks?   It sky rocketed.  How often do people buy bargain bin games on consoles?  The answer is always it is much higher than on PC.

PC is a place where you can get buy charging a little more, and where people will pay money if they want, but aren't neccisarily forced to do so. Lets look at MMORPGs.  They are available on both PC and consoles, but where do they thrive?  PC.  The ability to easily and quickly get a new patch, a new update, and the willingness of a predominately older and more willing to spend userbase is the result of this.  I

The fact is that until console games can attract gamers willing to spend more, it will never work.  You just need more money being spent.

[mouse_clicker]

It's a bash mousesy playground here. ^_^ Thanks, manunited, for saying exactly what I was thinking. Maybe connectivity isn't as popular as online gaming, but it IS more accessible and cheaper.

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Well boo freaking hoo, it seems like you care more about Nintendo executives getting richer and richer, than what would be best for gaming and gamers. Oh Nintendo are making a profit, isn't that fun everyone!! Yay!

What, because I don't want Nintendo to waste all their money then go out of business? Let's use the Mario logic here for a second and apply it to this situation- it sounds like YOU want Nintendo to go out of business! Now do you see how stupid a comment like yours was? How is online gaming BEST for the gamers? EXPLAIN that to me! Nobody has yet! All I've heard is I want to play online games, and I want to do this- quite frankly I'm SICK and TIRED of pimply little nerds sitting at their computers all day thinking they know how to run Nintendo better than Nintendo does. Just shut up already! It's really starting to piss me off! Mario, obviously you haven't understood a single thing I said, so I'll disregard your post in my editorial regarding this new information- please, you need to read ALL of my posts instead of the first few sentences and then assume what I'm getting at.

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Huh? I'm their frigging customer! They're SUPPOSED to please me because I'm giving them money to do so!

But 19 more people want to spend their money on something different- if you were Iwata, what would YOU support?

And since you seem to be the only one challenging XBox Live's sales of roughly 500,000, go and find me a sales chart that says otherwise.

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By the way, 5% of Xbox users having Xbox Live is not as little as it sounds. GTA III is owned by only 10% of PS2 owners

You can't compare XBox Line to a game, though, it doesn't work that way and you should know that, Johnny, being the director of one of the largest gaming fan sites on the internet. Xbox Live is the ABILITY to play games online, and only 5% of people, at least on the XBox (even less on the PS2) want that ability.

[Mario]

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What, because I don't want Nintendo to waste all their money then go out of business? Let's use the Mario logic here for a second and apply it to this situation- it sounds like YOU want Nintendo to go out of business! Now do you see how stupid a comment like yours was? How is online gaming BEST for the gamers? EXPLAIN that to me! Nobody has yet! All I've heard is I want to play online games, and I want to do this- quite frankly I'm SICK and TIRED of pimply little nerds sitting at their computers all day thinking they know how to run Nintendo better than Nintendo does. Just shut up already! It's really starting to piss me off! Mario, obviously you haven't understood a single thing I said, so I'll disregard your post in my editorial regarding this new information- please, you need to read ALL of my posts instead of the first few sentences and then assume what I'm getting at.

Yes, i would love Nintendo to go out of business, because we all know setting up an online structure would cost 6 billion nintendo dollars. And dont even try to say im trying to tell Nintendo how to run their business, in fact im 100% against that, because the fact is none of us here have a clue how much it would cost Nintendo to go with option A or option B, and how easy or hard it would be for them to accomplish whatever is best. You are the one who think they know how to run Nintendo, while others simply state that they are interested in online gaming and are unhappy that Nintendo aren't pursuing it.

To be honest i dont really care about online gaming, which is why i never talk about it.

It's arguable that connectivity is more accessable and cheaper than online gaming, but assuming you have enough GBAs, then yes it is more accessable and cheaper, but not as fun or cool.

I'll see if i can find some sales figures...

[mouse_clicker]

Let's look at the facts, Mario:

Nintendo says online gaming isn't profitable.

I say online gaming isn't profitable.

They say online gaming is profitable.


How am I the one telling Nintendo how to run their business? If none of us really know how much it costs to set up an online network, why SHOULDN'T we believe Nintendo? Afterall, they've gone online every generation, now, I'd think they would have the most experience. Hence, if Nintendo tells me that online gaming isn't profitable, I tend to use that as the base of my opinions- if someone provides a good case otherwise, I'll change my opinion, but so far all anybody has done is talk about how they want to play games online, and how Nintendo should set up an online structure simply so they can play games online. Hell, I'd love Nintendo to support online gaming, but I wouldn't want them to waste money on it, which is my WHOLE point. I'm not concerned only with Nintendo execs pocketing money, I just don't want Nintendo chasing geese around burning money- THAT'S how you lose $5 billion, my friend. It would be nice if Nintendo could please quite literally everyone, but that's not possible.

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then yes it is more accessable and cheaper, but not as fun or cool.

That's purely subjective- you should know that, Mario. Personally, I like the little extras connectivity has offered, while I'm quite put off by online gaming.

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I'll see if i can find some sales figures...

Completely unrelated, but if you find a good site for sales, could you link me? I've been searching everywherer for some place that has any sort of up to date sales.



 

[Mario]

Bam.

Lets look at a game that was released on all three platforms, but only the Xbox version had online play.

The Xbox version of Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon, has sold 670,130 since release in the US. While the PS2 version has sold 605,284. Oh whats this? The Xbox version outsold the PS2 version? Despite the PS2s huge user base advantage? While this could have been for other reasons (more competition on PS2, FPS sell very well on Xbox), one reasons why some gamers would have picked the Xbox version over the PS2 version, is online play. You cant really deny that. The GameCube version sold less than 100k, but that's a different story.

And i know for a fact, that 500k Xbox Live kits were sold in the US, after December 2002. Who knows how many have been sold now, but it's most likely more than 500k by now.

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That's purely subjective- you should know that, Mario, Personally, I like the little extras connectivity has done, while I'm quite put off by online gaming.

Yes, i also like connectivity, it amuses me, plus i happen to have a GBA (four GBAs actually ). It's subjective, i know.

[mouse_clicker]

Mario, when have I ever said online play wasn't an incentive for some people to buy the game? Find me where I said that and I'll give you a kiss.

Also, link me to those sales, Mario- I remember hearing there were 300,00 XBox Live subscribers as of April 2003.

[Mario]

You havent, but imagine if Nintendo got online exclusivity to a multiplatform game, it would result in better sales of the GC version of that game, increased awareness and more "omfg 1337 mature" points to Nintendo, and Nintendo wouldnt have to do anything except let a third party do the work... which is more difficult than it sounds, meh.

Those sales are Xbox Live kits, subscribers is different, and i admit is more accurate, so forget what i said about 500,000 Xbox live kits. 500,000 as of March 2003 is all i know. It was announced in April, but February or March figures were used.

Combine how much more Xbox subscribers there inevitably would have been in the past months, and the fact that the US install base of Xbox is nowhere near 10 million (more like 7 million ), and thats clearly more than 5%.

I have no idea what point im trying to prove, because i dont want Nintendo to go online, but yeah.

[Kyosho]

MC, have you ever looked at it like this.  Not everything Nintendo does initially needs to be PROFIT.  You need to lose some to gain some as seen by online gaming in the decade.  Companies suffer losses only to gain MORE in the long term.  WIth the way Nintendo approaches, they are viewing it from a short term perspective.  Not only that, but since the SEGA CD days, almost every company that tries to do connectivity has lacked success.  If anything, Nintendo is not looking to get NEW people into the Gamecube.  THey are just trying to port over existing GB players to the Cube and Cube players to the GBA, not to attract ppl outside the circle.

Lastly, American tastes differ from Japanese tastes as I'm sure you know.  So people need to stop using Japanese surveys for their support.  Nintendo is 2nd in Japan, but doing semi-abysmal in the US.  People need to stop looking at the global issue and look at it regionally.  If I was living in Japan, I'd be pretty happy with the games they have there for the Cube.  Their games suit my taste more, but I am not willing to shell out the extra import fees/modding/hassles for it.  The SNES days were when the Japan/US games molded together.  But now, US Cube and Japan Cube got significant differences.

[mouse_clicker]

Kyosho: That is a good point, that not everything Nintendo does needs to be profitable immediatley, but who's to say that Nintendo isn't researching the profitability of online gaming as we speak? Perhaps not, but I honestly don't think Nintendo has "ignored" online gaming as many of you claim. I could be wrong, of course, but I think when online gaming because profitable and practical, Nintendo will be there.

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Nintendo is 2nd in Japan, but doing semi-abysmal in the US.

Actually, the Gamecube nearly outsold the PS2 in the US for the month of November, and outsold the XBox by a great deal. I'm not even sure if the XBox is second in America anymore, and even if they are, it's by a very small amount and will son be surpassed considering the huge boost in sales the price drop has brought on. Keep in mind, ANYTHING you say about the Gamecube's sales in North America up until recently applies to the XBox as well,  and Sony's too far ahead everywhere to be caught now, so there's really no comparisons you can make that paints Nintendo and Nintendo alone in a bad light.

[Hostile Creation]

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GTA III is owned by only 10% of PS2 owners

You're talking percents here, man.  10% of PS2 users is a helluva lot more than 5% of Xbox users.

I was going to say something else, but I got bored.  Sorry.

[NWR_Lindy]

Originally posted by: mouse_clicker

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quite frankly I'm SICK and TIRED of pimply little nerds sitting at their computers all day thinking they know how to run Nintendo better than Nintendo does. Just shut up already! It's really starting to piss me off!

The very fact that you're in this forum posting about Nintendo stuff qualifies you as a nerd just like the rest of us.  The fact that you're getting worked up over this thread most definitely qualifies you as nerd, once again just like the rest of us.  My condolences.

I made the point that "onling gaming doesn't have to be profitable right now" about 15 posts ago.

OK, my flaming is done.

silks