Topic: GameCube’s Mid-Term Report Card

[KDR_11k]

For those who don't understand MS' aim: They try to make everybody dependant on their proprietary formats and thus bind them to their products. At some point in the past they figured that the PC will take the role of a media hub in addition to being a work machine. These hubs are slimmed-down, less expensive PCs (originally they were to be released together with Windows XP). After that original plan never came to fruition, they made the XBox, which is supposed to be the all-in-one device every household would have to own. The XBox was originally not intended to sell at a loss. After all, it launched at EUR480, soon cut down to 300 to match the competition. MS has once said they intend to own the media center market like they own the home OS market. Once they manage to defeat the competition (or at least take a huge chunk of the market from them), they will be able to sell their devices at a profit again. MS is notorious for overpricing (just look at Windows or MS Flightsimulator!) and wants to dominate every single aspect of your life (even your toilet, I'm serious).

The XBox will be taken from the market once Microsoft lost too much to Linux. They're constantly losing customers and when opensource manages to become a major player, MS can no longer afford lossy operations like the Box.

[BigJim]

Not sure WTF I did to mess the math up.  Anyway, the article says "building the global network" which on the surface doesn't imply developer incentives and the like, but it's possible. They're going the most expensive route because they want to own the product and service start to finish.  (i.e. lock players in as best they can.)

Certainly there are cheaper ways to do it, but if Nintendo says the scale still doesn't tip in the favor of sound business *right now*, I won't disagree with them. None of us can fairly do that. It stands to reason they'd put down online gaming while they don't have a ready-made product, so there is a smokescreen there as well.

They've acknowledged that online will come, but they're apparently going to wait for the planets to allign with their platform(s). Doing it now is too late for GameCube. Doing it sooner would have been too costly for the payoff. With only a 5% and 7% online penetration for Xbox and PS2 respectively, they're still a minority, so while we online-ready folks are going apesh!t for it, there's still plenty of time for demand to build.

[DrZoidberg]

hows about don't assume all 20+ people are the same too, i'm 18 now, soon to be 19, and i doubt the amount of worth i put into the colour of something will change over those 2-3 years when i'm 21-22 or what ever, it's just moronic.

[mouse_clicker]

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MC: what the hell are you talking about SMS didn't sell well? It just didn't meet Nintendo's expectations for a Mario title

That's what I meant- it didn't sell as well as Nintendo's expectations, which it probably should have.

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Mouse, as I said before you and I may find it wrong (sorry Kyosho) that someone wouldn't buy a console because of it's color and shape, but that doesn't mean people don't. It's a reality. "Shouldn't" does not equal "Don't".

I know some people DO do that, I'm just saying I don't want Nintendo changing everything simply to appeal to THEM. If they want to buy a Gamecube in the end, that's great, but Nintendo should target the people who want the games first and foremost. Really, read my editorial because I'm just repeating stuff I've said there. I've given you 2 links.

[Kyosho]

excellent post Skyline.  "MC, being 15 quite honestly puts you in a different mindset than the 20-something year-olds on this thread"  

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hows about don't assume all 20+ people are the same too, i'm 18 now, soon to be 19, and i doubt the amount of worth i put into the colour of something will change over those 2-3 years when i'm 21-22 or what ever, it's just moronic.

Look at the first year of high school and compare it to your last year of high school.  Do the same thing in college but multiply it by a tonfold.  Maybe your choice of color doesn't change, but you will see many opinions change.

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I know some people DO do that, I'm just saying I don't want Nintendo changing everything simply to appeal to THEM. If they want to buy a Gamecube in the end, that's great, but Nintendo should target the people who want the games first and foremost. Really, read my editorial because I'm just repeating stuff I've said there. I've given you 2 links.

You really are stubborn and ignorant MC.  MOST of you probably were never hesitant because you guys are die-hard fans who never lived through Nintendo's lifespan.  I was pretty hesitant to buy the Gamecube after N64s flop, so I fell into the casual console gamer category.  Color sure was deterring people including me away.  Not just that, again you want Nintendo to target *you* not everybody.  Again, this just goes to show you that there are ALL kinds of Nintendo gamers out there.  Ones who have blind faith and are stubborn, and ones who are still fans but notice flaws in a supergiant.

[SSJ Shake]

This guy got the grades down right, except I have NO idea why sports games was a topic, or why it got the most writing on it. Whether or not sports games are great or not, I have no f'ing idea y they would be classified as an important topic. I can see that they're a big seller, but y they sell so well I don't understand. So u can fork 50 bucks every year for a game w/ minor tweaking, and something u can do for real outside? Sorry, but that wasn't the reason I'm responding. The real reason is my opinion on online gaming and Nintendo gaming sequels. First, Nintendo sequels. I just finished Metroid Prime an hour ago, and it is the BEST game I've ever played. I remember when it first came out people were whining it's a first person shooter, not a platformer. Let me tell you, it is one Nintendo classic that made a perfect move from platformer to next-gen game. Zelda was another game that made a change for the better when it premiered on the N64. Anywho, I can still see how people whine about the same game rehashed, and I can see how "rehashing" is a great thing. Look at it this way, when Super Mario 64 came out, did you like it more than the original Mario games? Of course you didn't, and that was them trying something new. Why change a great game when it's already great? In what ways can you think of radically changing Zelda for the better? You can't change it on a major level. The great thing about rehashing is you get to see your fav characters after the first installment. The story continues. I love Nintendo games. I love them rehashed. That's becuause they were great the first time, and sometimes better the second time, after all the gaming glitches, playablitiy, game mechanic, etc. have been improved from the first one. If it's a series game, it should stay rehashed. Something like Mario Kart or Pokemon is a different story. Mario Kart is great, I just got the Gamecube version for Chirstmas. I played it, and got bored pretty fast because it is exactly like the Mario Kart 64. The whole 2 to a kart is a joke. It's retarted. But, I can see how they strived for something new, and you should be glad it's there. Pokemon, besides sucking, is the same thing in every game, except new Pokemon. Oooo, your a Poke Trainer that has to catch 'em all and beat the gym leaders. Same thing, new face. These games, despite beign repeats, really can't be changed that much and retain its core essence. Super Smash Bros. Melee did that well, though. Despite being a fighting game, and not an adventure game w/ a plot, it improved greatly on the original for N64. That's because they kept the main idea, but added a lot to it. Mario Kart needs the same thing SSBM has.
Now as for online gaming, it's NOT profitable! XBOX LIVE has wasted million, but that's because it's multi-billionaire company Micorsoft. PS2 has online because it don't spend as much money, it's online games are managed by the gaming companies that made those games. The only reason those gaming companies don't do the same for Nintendo, the way I see it, is because Gamecube isn't a financially stable gaming system like PS2 is. Online gaming must be switched to internet access via your ISP in your PC. This will save money, and therefore get a lot of more people to join. I won't join an online gameing system if it costs money to play. That's ridiculous. I think Nintendo's next system can handle online capablilty, but for now, Nintendo is trying to balance itself far to much from bankruptcy to waste money on unprofitable online gaming. BTW, I own a PS2 Online Gaming Package, and liek ti very much. Only problem, I need broadband to hook it up. x_x In the end, online gaming is a must for Gamecube 2 to succed. I know, XBOX only has half a million subscribers, but just the idea of online gaming, whether you use it or not, excites people enough to buy that system over Gamecube.
I think it's time for some new games for GBA and some old-school platformers for Gamecube. I'm sick of no new games for GBA, only re-released Nintendo games for it. And Gamecube needs a new Mario platformer-as in SMB 3 style. The new Mario is Ok, but it's no that great. And Mario Sunshine is a repeat of Mario 64. It's still fun though. And all E-reader crap must be destroyed if it's necessary for a game like SMA 4: SMB 3 to have eveything included.
Also, if Nintendo hopes to succeed, they need more M-rated games for the drewling masses. I don't particularly buy a whole bunch of violent games, though most gamers in America do. I'm not that big for them, but I do like one or two of those games every once and a while. They REALLY need to release more adult games to cure their baby look. I really don't think they should have do, but what choice exists?  And they better do it soon. The President of Nintendo said when they stop makign consoles, they stop making games. They will never be a third-party game developer. You hope they shape up soon. You see, I own a PS2 for American like games, and a Gamecube for Nintendo developed games. Nintendo needs to find that middle ground, and fast.
Sorry if I pissed anyone off, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  

[mouse_clicker]

That's it, I'm through with this. I've poured my heart out in this thread for 7 pages now, as have other people, and it's become quite clear that I'm not convincing anybody and nobody's convincing me. I'm not as arrogant as I may seem, I just don't want Nintendo changing themselves to appeal to the people who value image over quality, like Kyosho here. If they can enjoy Nintendo's games, that's great- if they can't, then that's their loss and there's absolutely nothing I or anyone else can do to get through to them. I've wasted hours of my time in this thread for no purpose whatsoever. I honestly cannot see why people think Nintendo is going down, but that appears to be a fundamental difference of opinions. I admire Grey Ninja for a lot of reasons, but mostly because he has not only the foresight to not get involved in something like this, but the will to do it as well, and it's one trait of his I am sorely lacking. I don't care what Kyosho, or Cowboy or whoever see this post as, but I am quite simply not spending another minute in this thread- it's pointless. Good bye.  

[ib2kool4u912]

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Originally posted by: SSJ Shake
This guy got the grades down right, except I have NO idea why sports games was a topic, or why it got the most writing on it. I'm sorry, but sports games suck! I don't understand y u'd play them. Just go outside and play, besides I view the game play and mechanics in sports games horrible. It's easier for me to play football outside then play it on my N64. Now, although I haven't played many sports games, barring racers and skateboarding, I guess my assumption is kinda assumed. But, whether or not sports games are great or not, I have no f'ing idea y they would be classified as an important topic.

Sports games were a topic because their are many people who only play sports games on their console. Just because you don't care for them don't mean other people don't. The point was to show that people buying a console for sport games won't (and shouldn't) even consider a Gamecube. Aside from not having Sega sports games, you would have to buy like 15 memory cards to play a couple sport games.

[Hostile Creation]

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I don't understand y u'd play them. Just go outside and play,

Amen to that, brutha.

But people do buy them.  Go figure.

[nolimit19]

there is no need for everyone to take things so personal. just because you are arguing doesnt meant the point is to convince the other person that you are right and they are wrong. the point is to show different sides of an issue and then maybe the people that watch the debate or the people participating can make a educated descion on who has the most good points.  now ill admit i didnt read half of the stuff written in this thread, but there is no reason for people leaving the thread upset about anything. there were tons of good arguments saying nintendo was doing well, but there were also good arguments saying nintendo needed to improve. image does matter with everything unfortunately. its the way people precieve things. if people have the idea that nintendo is for kids, then that is bad. nintendo never said it wants to be the kiddie console. it wants to be the family friendly console. meaning the console and its games should appeal to everyone. nintendo does need to appeal to more people if it wants to stay on top of the game. the more appeal they have the more money they make, and that is the point of a business.

edit: sports games are super fun. its hard to find 22 guys to play football.....plus you can get hurt. why play shooting games when you can go paintballing. same difference as far as im concerned.

[Kyosho]

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I just don't want Nintendo changing themselves to appeal to the people who value image over quality, like Kyosho here

It's called adaptation.  You can spread your resources to adapt to people's taste instead of changing the company entirely.  What that means is they can still address your concerns and also address casual gamers' concern as well.  It should not be one or the other.  It should be BOTH.  If you've poured your heart into this, you would have had the heart to see that, instead of declaring your opinion backed by skewed factual evidence is the right and just one.

As for sports, if you don't have an intramural team for let's say Football, it is hard to get 12-24 players to come play with you.  Basketball you can play in pickup games, but football there seldom are pickup games.  Same goes with baseball.  Golf needs a lot of money to start.  Skateboarding can be done by people who have patience and do not fear falling on asphalt as well as being agile and light.  Snowboarding, same thing.  The purpose of a video game (sports inclusive) is to mimic real life or excite a person's passion where they don't have to commit costs and their safety.

[Hostile Creation]

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It's called adaptation. You can spread your resources to adapt to people's taste instead of changing the company entirely. What that means is they can still address your concerns and also address casual gamers' concern as well. It should not be one or the other. It should be BOTH. If you've poured your heart into this, you would have had the heart to see that, instead of declaring your opinion backed by skewed factual evidence is the right and just one.

Y'know, this is exactly what Nintendo is striving to do right now, and I think it's also the basis of MC's argument.  So this is all pointless.

[skyline]

Thanks Kyosho for the compliment. I was just trying to point out the obvious. MC, you have not been convincing anyone because you have failed to make any reasonable arguments that Nintendo shouldn't change for the sake of its gamers. In reality, everything points to the contrary. The reason why Nintendo went from first to third was because of its unwillingness to change. It completely underestimated Sony and the CD format. Now history will repeat itself, if Nintendo underestimates online gaming, not to mention DVD playback, sophisticated machine design, even color. If you think about it Nintendo's strategy is a suicidal one. It only appeals to kids, even though kids have no finances / money / ways to even buy games without help from their usually unwilling parents. Parents, when they finally give in, and want to surprise their child with a console during Christmas, birthday, etc. usually get an XBox or PS2 because quite frankly, they are more popular than Gamecube and they only know the popular ones. Not to mention that kids are equally impressionable and do not want the console that none of their friends have. Complete suicidal strategy. You market a product that is hundreds of dollars to kids and yet they do not have the money to buy them. At least you should be marketing to people that have the resources to go out and purchase whatever you are selling. Your complete lack of concern to attract the casual gamer will sink Nintendo in the next generation. All that Nintendo has built up for the last 20+ years will be no more thanks to people like you who do not embrace the importance of change and what Kyosho mentioned, "adaptation." I mean, you keep saying that Nintendo is doing almost nothing wrong and they have all this money. Well, in your shortsightedness you probably don't know or don't care that Nintendo has posted its first financial loss in the history of the company. Honestly do you think this is just a minor bump in the road or the beginning of their downfall? I believe this probably won't be the last time we hear that Nintendo will post a loss. Quite frankly Nintendo needs less people like you who will drag them down and needs more of its loyal Nintendo followers (the older crowd that have followed Nintendo through good times and bad).

By the way MC, you leaving the thread reaffirms a lot about the different "mindset" I was talking about, which of course is associated with age. No need to get upset about something you can't control.

[Hostile Creation]

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By the way MC, you leaving the thread reaffirms a lot about the different "mindset" I was talking about, which of course is associated with age. No need to get upset about something you can't control.

You should be shot in the head.  Should be twice, but the two bullets would cost more than you're worth.  That was completely unnecessary.

You may want to note that Grey Ninja and mouse clicker were arguing basically the same thing, and Grey Ninja is about ten years older than MC.  How old are you?  Sixteen?  Nineteen?  I don't really care, actually, because your opinion is crap either way.

[Kyosho]

Probably was unncessary, but people should be able to see the different mindsets here.  There will always be exceptions (like GreyNinja).  MouseClicker, my apologies if you feel upset over this, but this is a forum.  If you truly feel what you've said is accurate, you would not totally abandon your defense.  I've only touched on things that I disagreed upon.  That doesn't mean I disagree with you in entirety.

[skyline]

Hostile, I am 23. You are 17, a child. I have a Masters degree in Biochemistry whereas you have still yet to get a high school diploma. Living in a piece of shite place Lousiana, of course violence would be your only recourse, that's probably how you were raised. MC left the forum due to the overwhelming opinion against him. Your posts have no substance and wishing violence on a fellow member of this board only discredits you. I doubt anyone really takes you seriously anyway.

Hostile, you are also quite the idiot as well. Adaptation and catering to the casual gamer are NOT the basis of MC's arguments. MC was arguing that Nintendo should not change, that it should do whatever it wants as long as it is profitable. Of course, due to your short attention span you failed to read the rest of my post that Nintendo posted its first ever loss. It's not profitable anymore, so all of MC's arguments are invalid from the start. You should really stop arguing for MC. You lack the brainpower and maturity anyway to formulate any kind of reasonable argument and are wasting people's time here.

[NWR_Lindy]

hahaha now THIS is a thread.  People telling other people they should be shot in the head, people telling other people that the entire state of Louisiana is a piece of s**t, man this is great.  And all over video games too.  Jonny really should have charged money for the amount of entertainment this thread has given me.

So far this thread has established that:

- Microsoft is losing money on XBox Live, but whether or not online gaming is profitable or not is still up in the air (depending on implementation)
- a lot of people hate mouse_clicker
- mouse_clicker is incredibly proud of his editorial and wants everybody to read it
- Grey Ninja hates this site
- a lot of people care about what a game console looks like, and that's OK (as shallow as some may think it is)
- if you mention that you're 15 years old in a thread dominated by 20 and 30-somethings, your opinion is pretty much disregarded due to perceived inexperience/naivete/ignorance (especially if they think you're obnoxious)
- Nintendo needs to cater to the hardcore Nintendophile, casual gamers and sports gamers all at the same time
- people on this forum are ridiculously passionate about Nintendo consoles
- this thread may have set a record for number of replies

Did I miss anything? hahaha

silks

[CaseyRyback]

you really think microsoft loses money by supporting online games? people who have live buy games. they buy games because when something gets old they need the newest game that everyone is playing. This makes people pay the 50 bucks and not hold off until a price cut occurs. I had live when it first came out and the difference in playing a live game in december 2002 was drastically different than in June because by then most had popped down the money to play wolfenstein online. online gaming is the future for multiplayer games, I mean who really wants to play 4 player split screen  timesplitters 2 ( I have a hard time sharing a screen in any game)

also Sony and Microsoft make a killing money wise online. there are not too many MMO's that these companies did not have their hands in. 500,000 subscribers was a long time ago and when you figure probably 20 percent of live players have broadband thats a pretty big number.

I am sure a Zelda MMO would more than pay for most of the development of other online ventures

[Jonnyboy117]

Can the personal insults and violent threats.  Banning shall commence otherwise.  There will be no more flamewars in this thread.

Some of you cite Konami as one of the third-parties brought back into the fold in the GameCube era.  Please tell me some of the great Konami titles released on GameCube so far.  Same for Sega.  I'll give you Namco and Square.

Sports titles is a scoring category because it's critically important in a console's success.  Look at the top ten selling games of any given year if you don't believe me.  I too am completely uninterested in these games, but they are sooooooooooooooo important to casual gamers, much moreso than platformers or shooters or fighting games or any other genre.  That's why I singled them out.

[DrZoidberg]

INTERWEB DRAMA

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I have a Masters degree in Biochemistry whereas you have still yet to get a high school diploma

means what exactly on a video game forum? clownboat. unless the discussion of video games and their respective companies requires extensive biochemistry knowledge, in that case i better catch the next pimp-mobile out of here chump.

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MC left the forum

left the thread/arguement actually, why leave an entire forum because some non-regular skullmonkies disagree with you, :moronface:

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hahaha now THIS is a thread. People telling other people they should be shot in the head, people telling other people that the entire state of Louisiana is a piece of s**t, man this is great. And all over video games too. Jonny really should have charged money for the amount of entertainment this thread has given me.

interweb drama is -fun-

[KDR_11k]

Some people here sound like Nintendo will just stand and watch online gaming rise while their market dies out. That's completely insane. Online isn't profitable yet. That's a fact proven in many instances. It may be profitable soon, sure, butz that won't happen without a few years notice. Nintendo knows online will become important and George Harrison (or whatever his name was) stated the N5 will natively support online. Two years won't kill Nintendo and two years won't make online more important than offline.
The US has a high broadband uptake ratio, but other areas of the world are less saturated with broadband. To effectively sell online gaming you need to include narrowband. Many PC gamers play online via dialup, they could never play things like XBox Live. Nintendo might offer this, Microsoft never will. MS has the philosophy that anybody needs to have unmetered broadband and who doesn't is a primitive caveman and is to be ignored. That's where N could make some ground.

[S-U-P-E-R]

PROTIP: Use proper paragraph breaks and people are more likely to read your posts

[mouse_clicker]

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Some of you cite Konami as one of the third-parties brought back into the fold in the GameCube era. Please tell me some of the great Konami titles released on GameCube so far. Same for Sega.

I just HAD to point this out, since I can't believe Johnny missed it- the simple fact that Sega made an F-Zero game, both for the arcade and Gamecube, and the fact that Konami is letting Silicon Knights, a Nintendo 2nd party, remake one of its best games ever, is reason enough to believe that Nintendo has very good relations with both these companies and will get some great support from them in the future.

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If you truly feel what you've said is accurate, you would not totally abandon your defense.

I've "totally" abandoned (well, after this post) this thread because it is going nowhere. You cannot honestly tell me that you are any closer to believing me or I am any closer to believing you since the beginning of the thread. It's called knowing when to give up. Maybe Hostile's been a little harsh, but he's speaking the truth.  

[NWR_Lindy]

Originally posted by: KDR_11k

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Nintendo knows online will become important and George Harrison (or whatever his name was) stated the N5 will natively support online.

When was this said?  I've heard Nintendo say that they are working on some way to play online for free (whether or not they were talking about Gamecube LAN stuff I dunno) but I've never heard them say N5 will natively support online.  Gimme a URL if you got it.  (BTW - by "natively" I'm meaning "it will be built-in like XBox"...if you're just saying that it will support online in some capacity then forget I asked).

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MS has the philosophy that anybody needs to have unmetered broadband and who doesn't is a primitive caveman and is to be ignored. That's where N could make some ground.

Agreed, but I think Microsoft just wants its users to have the best online experience possible.  In their mind I guess you can't have that with narrowband, which you can't necessarily disagree with.  But I certainly don't think that not having narrowband support is the best worldwide strategy for exactly the reasons you mentioned (but what do you expect, MS is a US company so their whole viewpoint is biased towards the US).  Nintendo will definitely support narrowband because they can then sell online gaming to everybody everywhere.

silks

[ib2kool4u912]

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Originally posted by: mouse_clicker

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Some of you cite Konami as one of the third-parties brought back into the fold in the GameCube era. Please tell me some of the great Konami titles released on GameCube so far. Same for Sega.

I just HAD to point this out, since I can't believe Johnny missed it- the simple fact that Sega made an F-Zero game, both for the arcade and Gamecube, and the fact that Konami is letting Silicon Knights, a Nintendo 2nd party, remake one of its best games ever, is reason enough to believe that Nintendo has very good relations with both these companies and will get some great support from them in the future.

I just want to say that i don't think that because Konami is letting Sk remake MGS it means the two companies are having better relations. I don't really know anything about so I could be wrong, but it seems to me that Konami will make money on this while SK does all the work. Even if i hated someone i would definitely let them make me free money. If the Konami really did like Nintendo then why wasn't MGS2 Substance ported Gamecube as well as Xbox, and how come there are no other Konami games on Gamecube (aside from some disney sport things)? I'm not saying that Konami and Nintendo don't have good relations, I don't know if they do, I'm just saying nothing so far has shown it.