Author Topic: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker  (Read 47004 times)

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Offline broodwars

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #225 on: December 07, 2019, 08:09:32 PM »
When you rule decades of books that were previously canon "non-canon" just so you can put out your own terrible books,
To be clear the original Expanded Universe was also mostly terrible books. Do you want "The Character Assassination of Han Solo Courtship of Princess Leia" or would the distinguished works of Kevin J Anderson be more your liking.

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of original Expanded Universe books, games, comics, etc. Yeah, in a sample size that large, you're going to get duds. I think I actually did read quite a few Kevin J Anderson books back in the day, though, in particular the Young Jedi Knights series. There were the usual ones everyone read, of course, too, like Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy, etc.

Funny thing is, Disney brought Zahn back in to write new Thrawn books once Rebels brought him back from Disney's Thanos Snap. Haven't seen or heard anyone say anything about them. Say what you will about the original Expanded Universe novels, but people actually read them. And I daresay people would have preferred where Luke; Leia; & Han ended up in the EU over how they've ended up in the Sequel Trilogy.
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Offline UncleBob

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #226 on: December 07, 2019, 08:30:00 PM »
You know, I had been avoiding this thread because I figured it'd end up bein guys shitting all over the luke-warm interest/excitement of everyone else for absolutely no reason but to make it known how edgy they are for not liking Star Wars anymore...

Glad to see I didn"t miss out on anything.
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Offline broodwars

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #227 on: December 07, 2019, 08:40:33 PM »
You know, I had been avoiding this thread because I figured it'd end up bein guys shitting all over the luke-warm interest/excitement of everyone else for absolutely no reason but to make it known how edgy they are for not liking Star Wars anymore...

Glad to see I didn"t miss out on anything.

Don't worry. As these forums have always shown, there will always be a place here to worship our new rodent corporate overlords. Hell, these forums probably wouldn't still exist without them.

Besides, I only came in here to mention Jedi Battle Meditation since folks were talking about the possible introduction of new Force Powers. It's a power that I'm surprised Disney hasn't reintroduced at this point considering its implications in large fleet battles. It's also an ability that could be introduced without half the fanbase calling B.S. on since it has an origin in the EU and was prominently featured in one of the most beloved Star Wars games. It's also so vaguely defined that Disney could spin it any direction they pleased.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 08:46:52 PM by broodwars »
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #228 on: December 09, 2019, 09:45:57 AM »
As someone who read a bunch of Star Wars expanded universe content, most of it was really bad and thrown together by authors who didn't really know what they were talking about and seemingly didn't care.

Losing the few that stood tall as well-written, carefully plotted stories would have been totally justified if they need to wipe the slate clean because there was a more cohesive story that they wanted to tell. Sadly, I'm not convinced that's the case. The new expanded universe seems just as terrible as the old one... so it makes you wonder what the point was other than to make it easier for people to churn out crap to sell without having to research or understand the universe they are trying to set that content in...


That said, as long as most people enjoy Star Wars stuff (and it seems like most do; and to clarify, I usually do too) then who cares? Let people have fun, without getting super involved in the lore minutia.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 06:44:52 PM by ejamer »
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #229 on: December 09, 2019, 10:22:49 AM »
As someone who read a bunch of Star Wars expanded universe content, most of it was really bad and thrown together by authors who didn't really know what they were talking about and seemingly didn't care.

Losing the few that stood tall as well-written, carefully plotted stories would have been totally justified if they need to wipe the slate clean because there was a more cohesive story that they wanted to tell. Sadly, I'm not convinced that's the case. The new expanded universe seems just as terrible as the old one... so it makes you wonder what the point was other than to make it easier for people to churn out crap to sell without having to research or understand the universe they are trying to set that content in...

It's like Snoke said in episode 8. "A Star Wars expanded universe rises, and terrible hack writers to meet it."
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Offline Shorty McNostril

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #230 on: December 17, 2019, 12:27:03 AM »
So early buzz about 9 is mixed.

TLJ was praised by all the advanced screening critics. We know how that turned out. If this is being less than enthusiastically received by said critics then I'm going to consider that a win.  There is also talk that this movie takes a huge dump on TLJ so that alone applause worthy if it turns out to be true.

In all honesty, I'm expecting 2.5 hours of fan service and spectacle.  The story is a write off thanks to its predecessor. There is no chance of salvaging it.  So they'll focus on what they can work with.  I know this is shallow as hell but if I see some epic Jedi (read: Luke) action and some fun dog-fighting then I'll be a happy boy.  If you don't go in expecting a good narrative I think you'll have a good time here.  But time will tell. 

Two days to go.

Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #231 on: December 17, 2019, 02:25:40 AM »
I don't necessarily think the new Star Wars is bad, but I don't care about ANY of the new characters.  None of them have been interesting, except for maybe Rey and Kylo.  I did like some of the stuff they did in The Last Jedi.  For instance, I liked the idea that they were basically mind melded together against their will.  I like to think that plan backfired.  I like that Luke was reluctant to train Rey, and I liked Luke Skywalker ghost fight...I just think it shouldn't have killed him.  The rest of the movie, literally everything with every other character was garbage and pointless.  I didn't care.  Their actions and stories didn't have any weight to the outcome of the movie.  Their choices felt stupid and dramatically out of place.  That said, what I am excited about in this last movie, is that Last Jedi has made the last movie utterly unpredictable.  The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable.  The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero.  The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall.  The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory. 

I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all. 

Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #232 on: December 17, 2019, 06:24:47 AM »
Early hype is trickling out and people are saying that it's not a dumpster fire!
Of course, early hype artists said the same thing about the last movie...

All kidding aside, the actual comments I heard from people after the advance screening were as non-committal as you could get. Sort of like "I'm still trying to sound excited but am making absolutely no comment on the quality of this film and have some doubts myself". My expectations are low going in; fingers crossed it's better than they last one.
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #233 on: December 17, 2019, 07:06:31 AM »
Early hype is trickling out and people are saying that it's not a dumpster fire!
Of course, early hype artists said the same thing about the last movie...

All kidding aside, the actual comments I heard from people after the advance screening were as non-committal as you could get. Sort of like "I'm still trying to sound excited but am making absolutely no comment on the quality of this film and have some doubts myself". My expectations are low going in; fingers crossed it's better than they last one.

From what I've read, the most common impression I've seen from people not giving effusive praise is that there's a lot going on in the movie, and that there's lots of "fan service". 

I fall on the side of The Last Jedi being a great pivot point that could have been the foundation for a fantastic final movie, but between the reintroduction of Palpatine and much of the cast coming out with less than glowing comments about TLJ, I've already accepted Star Wars isn't a franchise for me any longer. 

Hope y'all get what you want out of it.
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #234 on: December 18, 2019, 12:20:22 AM »
The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable.  The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero.  The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall.  The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory.

I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all. 
The Force Awakens introduces the Resistance and Rey is the new hero.  The Last Jedi shows all the failure that amounts to going nowhere even through Rey brings Luke to face Kylo Ren. In the final part of The Last Jedi it is being shown that there is still hope even though the Resistance is dwindling.   In The Rise of Skywalker possible hope and defeat of the First Order along with KyloRen?  I hope people can see the stand ins to the characters and where things are similar to the OT.   Wait and see in 2 days.     





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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #235 on: December 18, 2019, 05:31:20 AM »
The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable.  The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero.  The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall.  The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory.

I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all. 
The Force Awakens introduces the Resistance and Rey is the new hero.  The Last Jedi shows all the failure that amounts to going nowhere even through Rey brings Luke to face Kylo Ren. In the final part of The Last Jedi it is being shown that there is still hope even though the Resistance is dwindling.   In The Rise of Skywalker possible hope and defeat of the First Order along with KyloRen?  I hope people can see the stand ins to the characters and where things are similar to the OT.   Wait and see in 2 days.   

Yeah, I think if there's anything damnable (or redeemable if you disagree with me) about this trilogy writ large, it's that they've clearly followed some of the same skeletal structure of the original trilogy. 

Same song, different verse/lyrics. 
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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #236 on: December 18, 2019, 09:23:38 AM »
The original Star Wars trilogy had a flow that was understandable.  The Rebellion is introduced and has a new hero.  The Rebellion is crumbling even though the new hero is rising, just to have a great fall.  The Hero and the Rebellion overcome all odds and have a great victory.

I don't feel like this new trilogy is following any story arc at all. 
The Force Awakens introduces the Resistance and Rey is the new hero.  The Last Jedi shows all the failure that amounts to going nowhere even through Rey brings Luke to face Kylo Ren. In the final part of The Last Jedi it is being shown that there is still hope even though the Resistance is dwindling.   In The Rise of Skywalker possible hope and defeat of the First Order along with KyloRen?  I hope people can see the stand ins to the characters and where things are similar to the OT.   Wait and see in 2 days.   

Yeah, I think if there's anything damnable (or redeemable if you disagree with me) about this trilogy writ large, it's that they've clearly followed some of the same skeletal structure of the original trilogy. 

Same song, different verse/lyrics. 
This is what upsets me about Star Wars Fans. You expect something different and it tries to do it in general people crap on it.  Oh it is too similar and people complain that it is just a retread.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #237 on: December 18, 2019, 10:51:40 AM »
That generalization might be accurate for some... but I think it's really unfair to use that as a broad brush to dismiss all complaints.


I'm happy if they do glorified remakes that hit familiar plot points and provide little more than fan service, or if they go completely outside expectations and take the Star Wars lore in completely new directions... They can do whatever they want and still draw my support, as long as the movies are done well. What disappoints about the recent Star Wars movies is how often the writing veers into really bad territory - whether due to pacing, plot, dialog, or some combination of the three.

That is why The Last Jedi failed for me. The movie got a lot of things right in the script, and should have been a great centerpiece for the latest trilogy. Unfortunately it also made a few choices that were laughably bad, making it impossible to appreciate the film as a whole. Critics and apologists defend their views by ignoring the bad choices, fanatics attack and deride everything about the film using the script failures to dismiss everything about it. The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

Sadly, that still leaves us with a Star Wars trilogy that is failing in part because it lacked consistent vision and in part because the people put in charge simply couldn't be bothered to write a decent script. (Someone really should have looked at the big plot points and asked: Does this make sense? Does this advance the story in some way? Whenever the answer was "No", things should have been changed. This isn't rocket science, and just a few moderate changes would have taken a totally mediocre film and turned into something truly memorable.)

Honestly, I'm not expecting anything from Star Wars at this point. If it's fun, or interesting, or different, or weird... that's all fine. As long they provide any kind of narrative that makes sense and is compelling (for any kind of reason, nostalgia or otherwise) then I'm sold. So far, the latest content getting released is having a hard time to meet those criteria.



With all of that said:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2018/03/16/star-wars-last-jedi-science-movie-reviews/#135deba174e6

Short version: people hold different opinions, it's all ok.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 11:11:02 AM by ejamer »
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #238 on: December 18, 2019, 11:36:58 AM »
I don't want to rehash TLJ arguments, so i'll side-step that lol.

I think creating a new trilogy in this series is an unwinnable situation unless they were willing to chart their own path in the universe.  If you try to repeat the same movie but just add tweaks, you get an Anchorman 2 sitaution.  ep 7 & 8 from a 10,000 ft view looks like a debate between two filmmakers whether star wars should hold themselves suffocatingly close to the OT or stake their own claim. 

Whether you think TLJ went too far or not, I suspect based on the critical reception that ep 9 will only work if you're willing to turn your brain off and enjoy a spectacle, which isn't generally what i'm looking for in movies star wars or otherwise.

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Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #239 on: December 18, 2019, 12:57:15 PM »
... a debate between two filmmakers whether star wars should hold themselves suffocatingly close to the OT or stake their own claim. 

Whether you think TLJ went too far or not, ...

This still misses the point that it doesn't matter how far either approach was taken, but how well (or poorly) it was executed. If TLJ was well executed, then people complaining wouldn't have any leg to stand on; it wasn't. The only viable way out now is to go for fan service and hope people will just write off any missteps from the past two movies.

My only take-away from this whole debacle is that anyone planning to create a trilogy based on an already-popular franchise should plan the whole thing from the outset, and then be sure that the people executing on that plan actually share your vision. It sounds to me like they failed both points pretty hard here.

Oh well. Given the circumstances, if the they lean hard into fan service and nostalgia for the next film as some are hinting at, that's probably as satisfactory of an ending as can be managed.
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #240 on: December 19, 2019, 12:44:17 PM »
Quote
This still misses the point that it doesn't matter how far either approach was taken, but how well (or poorly) it was executed. If TLJ was well executed, then people complaining wouldn't have any leg to stand on; it wasn't. The only viable way out now is to go for fan service and hope people will just write off any missteps from the past two movies.

Given that it's clear I have very different opinions about The Last Jedi than you (and many others here) have, as I stated before, I'm not broaching the granular details of that movie.  I was talking more broadly - trying to take it from a 10,000 ft view.



My only take-away from this whole debacle is that anyone planning to create a trilogy based on an already-popular franchise should plan the whole thing from the outset, and then be sure that the people executing on that plan actually share your vision. It sounds to me like they failed both points pretty hard here.

This I absolutely agree with.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 12:46:04 PM by lolmonade »
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #241 on: December 19, 2019, 03:47:13 PM »
I think there was a plan with certain story beats that it had to hit. And like any story, it allowed for changes, improvisation etc. In the original trilogy, there was uncertainty over whether Han Solo would even be in Episode VI because they didn't know if Harrison Ford would sign on for another movie. Han Solo's absence would have radically changed Return of the Jedi, but Lucas and co. could still get to the finish line without him. The story needs Luke; it benefits by having Han. If Mark Hamill was in the same contractual position in 1982 and refused, I don't think they could get to the finish line and it remain the same story.

That said, depending on how Rise of Skywalker plays out, the problem may be that the sequel trilogy filmmakers changed something they couldn't afford to change. George R. R. Martin explains this better than I could:
Quote
I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that.
What did they change? Well, I haven't seen the movie yet. If I had to guess, Palpatine is the chambermaid. Ian McDiarmid is excellent so I'll keep an open mind. However, I'm struggling to imagine a scenario in which Palpatine returning makes any sense.

This is just my speculation, but I feel like the plan was Snoke = Darth Plagueis, everyone figured it out immediately, and instead of leaning into it, they panicked, called up McDiarmid, and walked back on Rey being a nobody so they can (weakly) justify Palpatine falling thousands of feet, bursting into a pillar of energy, and surviving the Death Star II exploding all up in his grill because Rey is his granddaughter or some other such nonsense.

I liked The Last Jedi. I thought it set up a fairly clear path for Episode IX. Here's what I took from The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi/my fan fiction version of Rise of Skywalker:
  • Snoke = Darth Plagueis because he can resurrect himself through sheer knowledge and power in the Force. He's no longer a Sith because **** those guys. His Sith apprentice killed him and let an empire die.
  • Darth Plagueis created Anakin Skywalker through sheer knowledge of the Force for no other reason than because he could. Imagine being so powerful you can just create life (without boning) and still want more power.
  • Snoke is destroyed once and for all by the last of the Skywalker bloodline (Ben Solo), meaning Snoke's lust for power is ultimately his undoing.
  • Kylo Ren never turns back to the Light Side. They did that redemption arc already with Darth Vader. No need to retread ground. Kylo Ren should die because his anger, selfishness, and inability to compromise or see reason leads him down a path beyond redemption. Also, the Skywalker bloodline should end because it fucked a lot of things up in a galaxy far, far away for like 50 years. So many people died...
  • Rey is a nobody because it's okay to be a nobody and build yourself up into a legend. If she wants to take up the Skywalker mantle and call herself Rey Skywalker at the very end because it inspires hope in others, I still think that fits narratively and thematically. The bloodline should end, but the name still means something.
  • Luke was The Last Jedi, maybe Leia if Carrie Fisher didn't pass away. Rey aligns with the Light Side of the Force but rejects the teachings of the Jedi because Luke is right: "At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out." In fact, Luke's Jedi Order failed miserably too so that's twice the Jedi allowed a super power to **** things up.
The way I saw it, these trilogies would ultimately tell the story of the end of both the Sith AND Jedi, the rise and fall of the Skywalker bloodline, and why the Skywalker name lives on and why it's important that it does. To me anyway, a lot of these things seemed perfectly set up then the filmmakers decided, "How about Palpatine?"

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #242 on: December 24, 2019, 03:05:35 PM »

. . .walked back on Rey being a nobody so they can (weakly) justify Palpatine falling thousands of feet, bursting into a pillar of energy, and surviving the Death Star II exploding all up in his grill because Rey is his granddaughter or some other such nonsense.

[ . . .]

If she wants to take up the Skywalker mantle and call herself Rey Skywalker at the very end because it inspires hope in others, I still think that fits narratively and thematically. The bloodline should end, but the name still means something.

LOL.

I liked the movie though.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #243 on: December 27, 2019, 05:29:32 PM »
Saw The Rise of Skywalker today, and felt it was pretty good.

Yes, there are some plot holes and plenty of WTF moments where they break all rules of the normal and Star Wars universes without any good reason... but (whether you like the plot choices they made or not) the movie rarely gets boring for long stretches. I'll take that as a win. It's also got a lot of fan service; some of that fan service was pretty nonsensical, but as the 9th movie in an "epic space opera" that has rarely felt planned out beyond the first movie, sometimes fan service isn't a bad way to go.

Let's be honest here: most of the Star Wars movies are flawed, some badly. Although the overall series is often talked about like some kind of masterpiece, it's only in rare moments that the movies live up to that hyperbole. As such, this movie sits comfortably in the top half of my Star Wars film rankings - warts and all.

It's a helluva lot better than The Last Jedi was, at least on first viewing.
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #244 on: January 05, 2020, 09:47:50 PM »
I will never see RoS.

But man I love high level bus demolition derby Disney is having.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #245 on: January 07, 2020, 03:14:16 AM »
This makes me wonder what everyones ranks of the main Saga are. 

Here is mine:
Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Star Wars
Phantom Menace
The Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
The Last Jedi

I have not seen RoS, but I will probably put it above Attack of the Clones and The Last Jedi. 

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #246 on: January 07, 2020, 03:18:57 AM »
OT

That's it.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #247 on: January 07, 2020, 05:49:15 AM »
I find rating the Star Wars movies to be difficult... some of the movies that I enjoy aren't the ones I'd consider to be best, whether that's due to nostalgia or other factors. Still, if talking about which movies I'd be most willing to re-watch right now then my list would look something like this:

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. Return of the Jedi
3. Rogue One
4. The Force Awakens
5. A New Hope
6. Rise of Skywalker
7. Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure *
8. Ewoks: The Battle for Endor *
9. Phantom Menace
10. Revenge of the Sith
11. Solo **
12. The Last Jedi
13. Attack of the Clones

* Very vague memories of the old Ewok spin-off movies; pretty sure they aren't good movies, but it's been so many years since seeing either that they rank higher on my "to watch" list anyway
** Solo might have ranked higher if I hadn't seen it recently

Honestly, the bottom half of that list gets pretty hard to watch, with pacing and storytelling both pushing the boundaries of what I'd enjoy watching.

As a bonus, my favorite Star Wars-related TV shows are probably:
- Clone Wars
- The Mandalorian
- Rebels
- Star Wars: Droids
- Ewoks
« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 05:52:16 AM by ejamer »
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #248 on: January 07, 2020, 11:54:06 AM »
I Saw the Rise of Skywalker about a week ago.  My main thought is that JJ Abrahms should be developing Star Wars theme park rides, not directing movies, because he loves some of the spectacle and to have winks and nods to fans moreso than good storytelling or decent dialogue. 


It was a fine enough movie if I turned my brain off and just watched the neat laser pew pews and the glo-stick swords to bwooow bwoow clash clash.  But there's also enough evidence that great, compelling storytelling and character development within the star wars universe is possible if the people making it aren't afraid to step outside the structure of the OT, and we didn't get that here.

None of this is the fault of the actors, who I think all did the best with what was handed them in some truly awful dialogue, especially the main 4 (Daisy Ridley, John Boyega, Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac). 


The biggest mistakes IMO of this whole exercise of new movies has been:

- Not sticking with one director.  Even as someone who loves The Last Jedi, it made JJ compress 2 movies-worth of events into the last to its detriment.

- Feeling like it had to be connected as some larger 9-movie arc.  This trilogy should have been much more new cast focused.  All the need to loop-in every and any prior character into these steals from all these new compelling characters they established.  Finn is a really compelling character (Storm Trooper that abandons his post).  Kylo is a fascinating antagonist figure they could have done more with.  They even snuck some interesting backstory into Poe.  Everyone but Rey gets pretty snuffed out from developing a more complete story arc because of how much callback is introduced throughout.

- Related to the above, having any return of Palpatine.  More than anything, this is a colossally stupid inclusion, completely unjustified in the narrative, and justifies a redemption arc for a character that would have been better served as an irredemable downward spiral.


Prequels are still by far the worst movies in the main numbered entries, but The Rise of Skywalker sits somewhere inbetween that big divide between the prequels and all the other ones.


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Offline BeautifulShy

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Re: Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker
« Reply #249 on: January 17, 2020, 09:22:15 PM »
So the original plot has been leaked and I have to admit it is a lot better than the Rise of Skywalker that we got. Leia played a big part in the original plot and when Carrie Fisher died things had to be changed to what we got. 
Here is a video of what was going to be the original plat of the 9th movie in the Star Wars saga. 

For BnM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQgdW6eR8rc
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