Topic: SPOILER ALERT: MCU Thread (Quantum-Ant-Man-ia)

[Adrock]

Yeah, that was probably the best episode so far.

My favorite scene was the conversation between Sam and Isaiah. The MCU needs more scenes where the action slows and the actors can act.

Sam and Bucky beating up Captain 'Murica was so satisfying. That dingus thinks he can make a shield out of scrap metal. Walker is the goddamn worst.

Bucky is totally going to **** Sam's sister. He's got that MILF-fever. Time to take this rivalry to the next level and assert dominance.

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier without context:


Sam got his own Crossfit montage. I still feel like his arm would get at least dislocated trying to catch the shield. Also, it seemed pretty irresponsible to be tossing that frisbee around in front of the house.

The writers are trying really hard to show Sharon Carter as having ulterior motives. I started to think she was the Power Broker when they walked into her condo dealie. It feels too obvious. Now that Elaine Benes debuted, maybe it's her? I've seen some other names floated around like Kingpin. If you're going to go nuts with fan theories, go nuts. It's Dr. Doom. Nah, the Power Broker is obviously Mephisto.

I really hope this isn't it for Zemo because he was largely useless. I don't think the plot necessarily needed him to get Sam and Bucky to Madripoor. Also, it's weird that the Dora Milaje would just be okay sending Zemo to a United States prison particularly one Captain America broke into and spring four inmates out of. Granted, not everyone is Steve Rogers, but I feel like Zemo can probably break out of there or can be broken out of there (if he wanted). I don't think he does, but no one in this world seems to acknowledge this. If the Dora Milaje really want justice for the murder of their king, maybe lock the man responsible up in a Wakandan prison. Is there any way he's getting out of there? Wakandan technology > Zemo's resources.

So far, I'm conflicted on the handling of Zemo's character. We have all of these heroes constantly breaking the law for some really heinous ****, and yet the only person who has accepted punishment is Zemo. He could have kept trying to kill himself after the events of Civil War, but the living aren't done with him yet etc. etc. Over the course of seven years, he could have escaped considering how easy that looked in episode 3. In the episode 4, Zemo escapes (pretty easily too), and he goes to the one place he knows he'll be found. That isn't bad writing. In fact, it makes me want more. His characterization is really consistent: he has a code, and he's mostly sick of superhero nonsense. They cost him his family and his country. Zemo also isn't without reason. He knows he broke the law to further his ****-superheroes agenda, and he lives with the consequences. While he's an intriguing character, maybe there's nothing more to say about him. He's nothing like his comic book counterpart. At the very least, I would like anyone to acknowledge that the Avengers really fucked him.

Without the benefit of having seen the final episode, right now it doesn't feel like the show was long enough. The Flag Smashers, John Walker, Elaine Benes, and possibly Sharon Carter all needed more time. The Flag Smashers aren't wrong per se, their methods are. I'm not sure how the writers want people to feel about them. Are they sympathetic, or merely terrorists?

Walker needed more of a descent considering the direction the show seems to be headed with the character. Marvel has the same problem with most of its villains: they lack depth the usually die before we really get a chance know anything about them. Here, we have more time with the episodic format yet Walker's character still feels hollow.

I presume Julia Louis-Dreyfus as Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine was more than stunt-casting. I'm so glad I didn't look up the cast list like I did with Wandavision. The surprise was nice. My expectation is she will play an important role at some point in the MCU even if there isn't another season of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

All this mystery surrounding Sharon Carter better not be a waste of time.

I'm here for Sam zooming around in vibranium armor. Can it just be next Friday already?

[BlackNMild2k1]

Damn - episode 5 is a cracker.

Because it’s a good episode or all the white privilege? Both?

🤣🤣🤣

I still haven't watched it yet, but now I'm expecting both, with all the viciousness yet none of the subtleness of being removed like on the previous episode.

[Adrock]

I haven't watched Ep5 yet, but wanted to point out this moment of insight from Ep4 real quick

https://twitter.com/MarcFaletti/status/1381596803615842305?s=20

https://twitter.com/lunamoki/status/1381631304723206147?s=20

Just one level deeper than what I realized was being presented.
I just didn't take it quite that far in my head, but to expose that layer to the sun just makes the scene all that much better.

I watched these again as well as the scene in question. Some of the details are at least debatable in the first link.

Kristine Kippins' take on Bucky is perhaps too cynical for what was intended and what the text supports. First, personally, I feel that when you gift something, you no longer have claim to that item. The Wakandans gave Bucky that new arm so that is his arm, and he's correct to view it as part of him. Granted, it was also totally fair game for Ayo to literally disarm Bucky (the best offense is good defense) though I get the counterpoint that doing so was still fucked up because the Wakandans know Bucky was a slave who had no agency for decades and did not consent to the use of his body by Hydra yet for even a moment, Ayo took away that agency again. That said, I didn't see Bucky's white privilege in that scene in particular. That isn't to say it isn't there. In episode 2, Sam was racial profiled by the police officers and in the same scene, they peacefully took Bucky into custody. Then, in episode 5, Bucky admitted to Sam that he "didn't understand what it felt like for a black man to be handed the shield." That isn't aggressive white privilege, but it's still white privilege.

Second, Bucky and Sam did not immediately get involved. And it should be noted that Bucky didn't intervene until Sam suggested they do (when the fight started getting out of hand). Bucky also never even attacked Ayo; he literally only dodged. When Ayo removed the arm, I didn't see it as Bucky with fear in his eyes or "[having] the nerve to look betrayed". It was more shock than anything, like "holy ****, that can happen?"

However, I mostly agree with Kippins' take on John Walker. He clearly represents white privilege. The powers that be dubbed him the new Captain America without understanding what Steve Rogers stood for. They just picked another blond, white dude who served in the Army. Rogers is supposed to represent the best of American values while Walker uses a shield he didn't earn and doesn't deserve or represent.

Where I disagree with Kippins' on Walker is regarding the shield. He doesn't think of that shield as coming from Wakanda because as far as we know, it didn't. We don't know where old man Steve got the shield he gave to Sam. If it's supposed to be the original, we don't know where Howard Stark got the vibranium for it. I think T'Challa implied that the vibranium used to create it was stolen, but how? Ulysses Klaue didn't infiltrate Wakanda until 1992, and T'Challa didn't open Wakanda's borders until 2016. Occam's razor: when a giant meteor crash lands on Earth, there's bound to be debris falling off it.

I'm all in on the second link. All of it makes sense. I read Bucky's expression more as surprise and guilt (like, dude, that's literally a 10 minute phone call, AND y'all would have likely gotten help from the Wakandans) as in the second clip than the betrayal and ingratitude of the first.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I believe the Bucky arm moment was a mix of emotions that fit all the descriptions.
Fear in that he just lost his left arm/vibranium shield, and feeling a defenseless in a fight
Shock/Surprise, in that he wasn't aware they could do that
Betrayal, that they would have incorporated a fail safe as such against him (think how the Justice League felt when they found out Batman had a literal contingency plan for each and everyone of them, so far as Kryptonite bullets or such for Superman).
and with that betraying thought, has to be followed by the guilt of betraying the Wakandan trust.
By which they demonstrated that they gave him that arm, but they can just as easily take it back. Which is a fear, shock/surprise, "betrayal" and guilt all at once.

He fucked up, and he realized it in that moment. This is resolved by him making amends at the end of Ep5 by handing Zemo back to the Wakandans so they can do with him as they please.
Although I do find it odd to send Zemo to the Raft, instead of imprison him in Wakanda.
But I guess this will make it easier for Thunderbolt Ross to get access to him and recruit him to a new team.


As for the Shield.... the Meteorite crashed in Wakanda, and they were the only known place to find that rare precious metal. Klaue wasn't the only raider of Wakandan lands in search of Vibranium, and certainly not the first to possibly successfully obtain some against Wakandan will.
Let's just go with the assumption that however Stark obtained the Vibranium, it was originally stolen from Wakanda before making it to his lab. They just chose not to make an incident out of it just to retrieve such a small amount 70+ years ago.
As for Walker thinking the Shield is his? Of course he does. Like she said, he think it originated from Captain America, and is the symbol of an American Hero. He thinks he earned it and ascended to face of the American Hero who that shield represents.
I see no reason as to why he would be briefed to it's origin or how the materials it contains was originally obtained. Just that this is the Shield of Capt. America, it's made of a rare bullet proof metal, defies logic, and will always bounce back to you.
But he's wrong. It isn't his. He didn't earn it. and that shield represents more than just the "heroic" face of the US Military's covert action figure who gets to act w/ impunity and jurisdiction around the world.

I'm glad he got his ass handed to him by the Dora Milajae and then Bucky and Falcon.

and I bet Falcons new Vibranium Wing Suit is gonna be BADASS BTW.
I wonder what Red Wing will be like w/ Wakandan tech behind it.


edit: I just remembered that Steve's Alt-Timeline Shield is what was given to Sam, as the Prime-Timeline shield was destroyed by Thanos. But I'll just assume all timelines were identical up to the point where Cap exited Alt-Timeline w/ their shield, meaning it's partially stolen vibranium and other rare blends of metal not yet mentioned.

[Adrock]

Betrayal, that they would have incorporated a fail safe as such against him (think how the Justice League felt when they found out Batman had a literal contingency plan for each and everyone of them, so far as Kryptonite bullets or such for Superman).

If anything, I'd expect Bucky to completely understand the point of a failsafe since he was a hypnotically controlled assassin for like 70 years. In fact, during the flashback at the beginning of episode 3, he had misgivings about Ayo using the Winter Soldier trigger words. That said, I don't think the text supports this take on Bucky.

More importantly, is it a failsafe, or simply expected/good engineering? Most advanced electronics/machinery is designed to be able to be disassembled for updates, repair, and modification. When the original Hydra arm is blown off by Tony Stark, it's just broken. The Wakandan arm has a socket so it seems more like a feature. Ayo doesn't render it unusable because Bucky just plugs the arm back in. If it was a failsafe, the arm wouldn't work anymore since it isn't useful for anyone except Bucky.

On second thought, I don't know why Bucky states didn't know the arm be can removed. Infinity War doesn't really support this as T'Challa presented Bucky with only the arm so he either already had the socket or the Wakandans had to surgically implant it right after. Either way, Bucky should know. That's either a retcon or the writers forgot about that scene.

I could have seen it as more as betrayal if Ayo just went, "Yoink!" then fucked off with the arm.

and with that betraying thought, has to be followed by the guilt of betraying the Wakandan trust.

Honestly, this is probably just bad or at best, negligent writing. Much of the plot wouldn't work if Bucky just dialed up Wakanda and told them they need Zemo to track down the Flag Smashers. Wakanda would likely help them too considering T'Challa's speech in the mid-credits scene of Black Panther.

As for the Shield.... the Meteorite crashed in Wakanda, and they were the only known place to find that rare precious metal. Klaue wasn't the only raider of Wakandan lands in search of Vibranium, and certainly not the first to possibly successfully obtain some against Wakandan will.

Does the text support this? I'll have to rewatch the relevant movies because I honestly don't remember. I was under the impression that the world thought Wakanda was a poor, farming country until 2016, and that Klaue only knew about vibranium because N'Jobu told him.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I'd have to go back through the movies, but I'm sure Klaue found out about vibranium the same way a previous thief would. It's a leap of logic, but not a large one.

Wakanda is the only known place to have vibranium.
Howard Stark somehow got vibranium.
Wakandans have been interacting with the outside world for many many decades, so for them to have slipped some out for money or some other outside world riches is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make.

[Adrock]

I'd have to go back through the movies, but I'm sure Klaue found out about vibranium the same way a previous thief would. It's a leap of logic, but not a large one.

But is it a smaller one than a piece of a giant meteorite broke off and landed literally anywhere else on Earth?

Wakanda is the only known place to have vibranium.
Howard Stark somehow got vibranium.
Wakandans have been interacting with the outside world for many many decades, so for them to have slipped some out for money or some other outside world riches is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make.

Wakanda is the only known place to have a stockpile of vibranium.

Sure, Howard Stark had vibranium somehow. If he stole it, that'd be a bigger deal to Wakanda, and I also doubt a man like Howard Stark would keep Wakanda a secret. A story for another time, I guess. Prince N'Jobu betrayed Wakanda by telling Klaue where the vibranium was and how to strike. The implication is no one just strolls into Wakanda and steals vibranium.

How often and to what capacity? The text of Black Panther is that they were an isolationist farming nation.

I disagree with the assumption though. Why would the most technologically advanced country need to sell one of the rarest, most valuable substances on Earth for money? They have everything they need because of vibranium.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I'm not suggesting the Nation of Wakanda sold or shipped out anything.

I'm suggesting, just like N'Jobu, who was trying to make a life for himself outside of Wakanda duties, a previous "scout/missionary" to the outside world, may have been similarly looking to make their own footprint and used knowledge of or secret access to some Vibranium to create their freedom from the will of Wakanda while living independently on the outside.

I would assume Howard Stark came across this through means which may not have informed him of anything about Wakanda.... on the other hand, he also worked closely with the creation of SHIELD, so he may have know where it came from, and smartly just kept his mouth shut as to not cause an public or international incident.

all speculative assumptions though. It's just as likely that maybe a small fragment was discovered outside of Wakanda as well, but I don't think it's been stated either way. Someone gotta question Feige at the next ComiCon or Red Carpet. we need answers.

Maybe Feige can make Agent Carter S3 and S4 on D+ and give us some much needed answers.

[ThePerm]

A giant meteor struck Wakanda in ancient times. It is possible small meteors struck other parts of the Earth. Or maybe the shield is what they could gather from worldwide dust debris. I'd be more curious about where Dr. Erksine got the secret recipe for the super serum?

[Adrock]

There was a fan theory going around a few years ago that Erskine’s serum was derived from the heart-shaped herb. The main problem with that theory is where Erskine got the herb if it’s only grown in that garden in Wakanda.

[ThePerm]

Maybe he was aware of it, did some 1940s biochemistry stuff, he had access to vibranium. Maybe vibranium is the key. It's such a rare element on Earth, that could be why the serum has been so hard to reproduce.

I hope Feige finds it in his heart to do something with some Netflix MCU characters. Charlie Cox has mostly taken a break, it'd be great to see Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage to return. Even just for cameos.

[BlackNMild2k1]

well, there are rumors of Charlie Cox showing up as Daredevil in Spider-man, and possibly D'Onofrio coming back as Kingpin to a D+ series (Armor Wars I think).

I'm not holding my breath for either, but both of those would be nice.
Hate to drag most of the the rest of the baggage Netflix along if that's the case though.

[Adrock]

Episode 6 was good, notably weaker than the previous episode. I don't want to write a big, long thing because no one reads those so here are some quick thoughts:

No issues with a black Captain America. Rather, I'm having trouble suspending disbelief because Sam is a regular, non-powered hero. When he got whipped into concrete tubes by a helicopter, I wondered why/how he was still alive.

John Walker is Steve Rogers' Wario.

"That's the Black Falcon there! I tell ya." / "Nah, that's Captain America!" is probably the worst bit of dialog in the entire show. Not needed, too on-the-nose.

"You don't think Lemar's life mattered?" is similarly bad dialog. I get it; I know what they're doing, and I didn't like it. The show tackled the topic of race really well that I felt invoking Black Lives Matter was unnecessary. It reminded me of when Coulson said "Fake news" in that one episode of Agents of Shield.

Sam's speech/lecture to the GRC in front of all those cameras was lazy writing. He isn't wrong. A big, expository dump is almost always the wrong choice. It felt very much like when shows wrap up "A Very Special Episode".

I liked the John Walker misdirection. I was really hoping he wouldn't do a full heel-turn. He can still be antagonistic without turning into a mustache twirling cartoon villain. Valentina calling him "U.S. Agent" could have been more subtle.

Sharon Carter as the Power Broker was a letdown. The writers leaned into it so hard, I was hoping they would swerve. They did not swerve.

The scene where Bucky's admitted he killed Yori's son was not as strong or emotionally resonant as I thought and wanted it to be. 🤷‍♀️

[UncleBob]

Yeah, I loved the series, but "subtle" was not in the writer's bag o' tricks.

I was angry at the end when they called Sharon "Agent Carter".  Come on, Disney.  You know we want Agent Carter Season 3.  Like, too soon man.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I thought it was good.

to touch on points above, I thought Sam was gonna be fucked when he whipped into the concrete tubes, but I think he had his Shield on his back, and that should protect him.

What I was a little disappointed to not find out, is if since the Wakandans made the Falcon suit, is it made of Vibranium? Would he have been bullet proof had he actually been shot by Karli? I really wanted Karli to get that shot off, and Sam to think he got shot, only to find out it did no damage.

As for the speech, well, there was no other opportunity or better time to just lay the point out there bare and undressed for the masses to consume. Now no one has to ask "did you get it" as it was not subtle and hinted at what the point.

Bucky's resolution certainly did not hit with the emotional note I think they were hoping for, but Sam's resolution for Isiah Brandley did hit much harder. Not quite a tear up moment, but the feels were there.

Sharon as the Power Broker..... ehhh, we'll see where it goes. At least if gives her something more to do than be a background character that's just there.

But I do like how in the end, everyone got what they wanted.
Karli's task was fulfilled.
Zemo got rid of the super soldiers (minus US Agent)
Bucky finished his book and got Sam to be Capt America
and Sam did good by Cap, Isiah, Bucky, his family, Karli, and himself.

and apparently this is in line for a potential sequel season, and the title card was the announcement of a Captain America movie sequel as well, helmed by the same showrunner as the show.

So I'm excited we get to see more.
I hope they tighten up Sam's suit for the next outing though. it seemed a little puffy in the front, and I don't really like the neck, half head cloth.

edit: I just really wish they didn't remove the Pandemic storyline, as that was mostly tied to the Flagsmasher and their cause. I'm sure the sympathy towards Karli and her cause would've landed a bit better had they not retooled the show to remove the connections due to the COVID situation.

[Plugabugz]

So John Walker kills a man in an international country, which should be a MASSIVE diplomatic incident (the Black Panther storyline through Civil War and BP1)... not to mention all the bad social media presence that would cause. We saw the Dora Milaje track down Zemo and explicitly say "we have jurisdiction where we say we have it".... but John just walked off after episode 6 like nobody noticed him or knew who he was.

That stuck out a lot to me.

[ThePerm]

I think for the most part Marvel shouldn't kill the villains. I think they should mostly escape.

I really with they hadn't killed Killmonger.

[UncleBob]

So John Walker kills a man in an international country, which should be a MASSIVE diplomatic incident (the Black Panther storyline through Civil War and BP1)... not to mention all the bad social media presence that would cause. We saw the Dora Milaje track down Zemo and explicitly say "we have jurisdiction where we say we have it".... but John just walked off after episode 6 like nobody noticed him or knew who he was.

That stuck out a lot to me.

I mean, he killed a terrorist.

I'm not saying what he did was okay.  But what he did is what America does all the time.  Freaking presidents bomb weddings and kill kids while wearing their Nobel Peace Prize.

This shouldn't shock you or anyone in the International community.

I find Wanda's actions and lack of repercussions more shocking than Walker's.

[ThePerm]

I knew who John Walker was going to be because I used to collect Marvel cards. I'm like oh, it's US agent.

[nickmitch]

I binged the whole thing the day the last episode dropped.  Loved it.

John Walker's character was pretty good.  I liked that you first see him as the ~new~ Captain America, and it makes you immediately dislike him.  Then you get a bit of his background and he comes off as somewhat redeemable or just a guy trying to do his job.  Then, when you see him in action, he comes off as a total tool.  After that, the entitled prick comes out.  By the end, it seems like he wants to do right or at least be told what he's doing is right.  We know he has anger issues, which might be amplified by the super soldier serum.  At least there's a great starting point for a Dark Avengers.

Speaking of not-my-Captain America, I think the context of him killing the guy made sense.  He did brutally murdered a surrendering foreign national, on camera, in full attire, on an unauthorized mission.  We see Sam definitely kill a few dudes in the opening scene, but at least they weren't begging for their lives.

As for the lead terrorist, I get the idea.  But the writers really put themselves in a corner trying to make her empathetic.  Morgenthau blowing up a building with people in it isn't some minor slip into the dark side the show tried to make it out to be and neither was torching a van with people in it.  They also were a bit too vague with the Flag Smashers' goal and objectives.  I get that they cut out a pandemic plotline, but what they left didn't quite work either because it was just too vague.  And Morgenthau saying she only wants to kill people that matter was a pretty weak way of making her seem reluctant or even remorseful about killing anyone.

Sam's arc was good for me.  I liked that they brought in Isaiah Bradley in for it.  Sam was a bit too "both sides-y" for me at times, but it worked.  Seeing Bucky open up in front of him the first time was pretty cool, and I wish Sam could've had a moment where he opened up to Bucky instead of Bucky saying to him "I didn't know what it'd be like for a black man to take the shield".  His final speech was way too long, but still good.  More quotables, less filler next time.  I also really liked his final costume; it felt very true-to-the-comics.

Speaking of Bucky, is he still gonna be the Winter Soldier?  Is that a title he even wants?

Other people: Zemo was cool.  Could use more Zemo going forward.  The "Double Agent" Carter twist was way too obvious, and just got more obvious the more she was on screen or even mentioned.  Can't wait to see more MCU Elaine.  Also, MCU Patriot when?

[BlackNMild2k1]

MCU Patriot, and Falcon (jr)

[ThePerm]

I wonder if there will ever be a plot that John Walker is one of Ego's sons?

[Spak-Spang]

I like Bucky's name, White Wolf.  They could have named the series The Falcon and the Wolf. 

[Adrock]

At the very least, the title card at the end should have read “Captain America and the White Wolf” or something decidedly not “the Winter Soldier” because Bucky’s entire arc is about making amends for the harm he caused as the Winter Soldier so doubtful he wants that designation.

[BlackNMild2k1]

in context of the show....

Black Falcon and the White Wolf


actually what should've happened was it should have typed out Black Falcon and The Winter Soldier
then someone starts hitting the backspace button to erase the entire title card.
then they type out Captain Falcon.... then hit the backspace some more to erase Falcon.
then out Captain America and The White Sold..... backspace backspace backspace.... Wolf

then the complete title card enlarges to say
Captain America and The White Wolf