Author Topic: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)  (Read 417552 times)

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Online broodwars

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #425 on: November 12, 2012, 03:40:47 PM »
I think you all know where I stand on Achievements/Trophies: I like collecting them, and most of you probably don't. That's fine (hey, we all have our individual tastes), but whereas you guys may not enjoy collecting them, you can also ignore them. I, on the other hand, am being told by Nintendo that I flat-out can't have a part of the gaming experience I enjoy.

From my experience, if the achievements aren't part of a system-level service Devs probably won't support them. This comes off as Nintendo "taking their ball and going home" when it comes to industry standards. They wouldn't (or couldn't) create a system as good as or better than the current achievement/trophy system that is the industry standard, so they just decided they weren't going to support one at all. And as trivial as they may be to you, to me achievements/trophies are an enjoyable part of my day-to-day gaming experience. But more than that, it's also yet another small sign that Nintendo isn't nearly as interested in appealing to the core gamer as they said they were last year. On its own? Not a big deal, but this stuff adds up over time.

The lack of them on Wii U will probably mean that unless the Wii U version of multiplatform titles is just that much better (hah!) or the PS3/PS4/etc. version is just that broken, I'll probably stick with the Wii U as my Nintendo-only box.  I spent most of this current generation with my Nintendo console collecting dust, un-played, in a corner, and I'm perfectly fine with doing the same for the next generation if that's how Nintendo wants it.  I don't "need" Nintendo anymore for all my gaming needs, so I don't have to put up with their BS anymore.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 03:53:20 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Ceric

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #426 on: November 12, 2012, 03:55:28 PM »
...
I, on the other hand, am being told by Nintendo that I flat-out can't have a part of the gaming experience I enjoy.
...
or the PS3/PS4/etc. version is just that broken
...
Good News!  Nintendo has told us squat about achievements.

More Good News!  PS3 hasn't been getting overly much love and seem to be getting broken things.
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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #427 on: November 12, 2012, 04:00:51 PM »
Good News!  Nintendo has told us squat about achievements.

Because there's nothing to say: there apparently are no system-level achievements.

Quote
More Good News!  PS3 hasn't been getting overly much love and seem to be getting broken things.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Aside from Bethesda titles (which are broken everywhere, just to different degrees), I think I have to reach back to the original version of Bayonetta to find a PS3 game off the top of my head that was just flat-out broken compared to its counterparts on other consoles.
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Offline Ceric

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #428 on: November 12, 2012, 04:04:24 PM »
Good News!  Nintendo has told us squat about achievements.

Because there's nothing to say: there apparently are no system-level achievements.

Quote
More Good News!  PS3 hasn't been getting overly much love and seem to be getting broken things.

I have no idea what you mean by this. Aside from Bethesda titles (which are broken everywhere, just to different degrees), I think I have to reach back to the original version of Bayonetta to find a PS3 game off the top of my head that was just flat-out broken compared to its counterparts on other consoles.
Please Quote Nintendo Saying that.  The only thing I have found from Nintendo is this and this.

In fact the only person saying their is no system-level achievements is Scribblenauts.  Only thing I can find from Nintendo is that they are not forcing achievements.  Nothing saying they will restricted to just in the game.


You know why we're at it.  I will confirm right now that the Wii U also makes Toast.

I know why your affiliated the way you are.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 04:14:02 PM by Ceric »
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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #429 on: November 12, 2012, 04:13:48 PM »
Please Quote Nintendo Saying that.

OK, here you go: http://kotaku.com/5917363/better-friend-codes-achievements-and-more-nintendo-answers-our-burning-wii-u-questions

That's from June 11, 2012.

Quote
System-Level Achievements Some of Nintendo's top game designers don't want to put Achievements in their games, but Nintendo has put an Achievement-like system in the 3DS, mostly to reward people for feats involving the system's Street Pass networking system. In other words, the system itself has Achievements. "We will have that," Fils-Aime said. "Once you start getting into game-specific [Achievements] that's developer driven." Microsoft may require every game to have Achievements, but, Fils-Aime said, "That is not our philosophy."
Quote
I know why your affiliated the way you are.

Oh? Pray tell.  :P:
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Offline Ceric

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #430 on: November 12, 2012, 04:18:22 PM »
Point made and I quote:

...
Because there's nothing to say: there apparently are no system-level achievements.
...

Please Quote Nintendo Saying that.

OK, here you go: http://kotaku.com/5917363/better-friend-codes-achievements-and-more-nintendo-answers-our-burning-wii-u-questions

That's from June 11, 2012.

Quote
System-Level Achievements Some of Nintendo's top game designers don't want to put Achievements in their games, but Nintendo has put an Achievement-like system in the 3DS, mostly to reward people for feats involving the system's Street Pass networking system. In other words, the system itself has Achievements. "We will have that," Fils-Aime said. "Once you start getting into game-specific [Achievements] that's developer driven." Microsoft may require every game to have Achievements, but, Fils-Aime said, "That is not our philosophy."
So far they are saying their will be System-level Achievements but they are not forcing developers to do them.
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Offline MrPhishfood

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #431 on: November 12, 2012, 05:09:37 PM »
From my experience, if the achievements aren't part of a system-level service Devs probably won't support them. This comes off as Nintendo "taking their ball and going home" when it comes to industry standards.

I just don't see how achievements are an industry standard. Its only something Microsoft implemented this generation and something Sony copied afterwards. The only real benefit I see to having achievements are making you play the game in new and unexpected ways.

I think people who want achievements are only those who have a physological drive to be better than others and showing off that arbitrary number makes them feel better about themselves. Even then its not implemented fairly because the points/trophies you get and the difficulty + time spent in obtaining it aren't equal across all games. Avatar The Last Airbender anyone? 1000g in 4 minutes.

Valve make great use of achievements. Other developers just tack it on because its a requirement. I think if the developers wanted you to play the game in more interesting ways then they should do something within the game to make that happen. It just takes you out of the immersion if you have to go to the menu screen, look at the achievements then back to the game and repeat until you have everything.

In fact even before I went to play some games on 360 I would look at the achievement list and think about the shortest number of playthroughs I would need to get all the achievements. In the end I probably didn't have as much fun as I could have, I was just completing a check list of chores. I could have not looked at the list and not played the game like I did but the fact those achievements existed made me want to. Maybe I have an obsession with being a perfectionist and maybe people who actually like achievements are perfectionists too.

I respect what Nintendo are doing by not including it because they want their console to be associated with fun and sharing those experiences. Not so much about making your friends and random people think how lacking they are as gamers or how lacking you are compared to others. It is unwholesome.

If developers want to include their own checklist then they can but I wouldn't want it pubically available for all to see.

Ultimately what can achievements do for us that can't be done any other way?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 05:25:38 PM by MrPhishfood »

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #432 on: November 12, 2012, 07:23:03 PM »
I just don't see how achievements are an industry standard. Its only something Microsoft implemented this generation and something Sony copied afterwards.

Yes, 3 out of the 4 major PC/console gaming powers have adopted achievements as a standard practice: Microsoft, Sony, and Valve. Nintendo is the only company who doesn't. Whether you like them or not, that would make achievements an industry standard.

Quote
*snip* I respect what Nintendo are doing by not including it because they want their console to be associated with fun and sharing those experiences. Not so much about making your friends and random people think how lacking they are as gamers or how lacking you are compared to others. It is unwholesome.

If developers want to include their own checklist then they can but I wouldn't want it pubically available for all to see.

Ultimately what can achievements do for us that can't be done any other way?

So because you can't handle achievement systems and you have psychological problems with other people online seeing your gaming progress, no one else should be allowed to enjoy such a system. OK, got it.  ::) To each their own, man, but I think your reasoning is misguided and rationalizing.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 07:26:39 PM by broodwars »
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Offline Ymeegod

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #433 on: November 12, 2012, 08:33:07 PM »
Actually I think Nintendoland does have "achievements".

"We’ve heard for some time now that Wii U will offer something like achievements in the form of “Accomplishments,” but with something as important as an account-based feature it’s best not to assume until you’ve seen it in action. According to those who have gone hands-on with Nintendo Land, the game will make use of achievements, and they’ll take on the in-game form of stamps, trophies, and “Master Rank” stars.

You can rack up these accomplishments, as you might expect, by your performance in each of the attractions and by expanding your Nintendo Land plaza with special Nintendo-themed collectibles, which you’ll purchase with coins you earn as you play. Miiverse connectivity will also factor in via online leaderboards, as we’d heard previously."
In NSMB U there's an Challenge Mode option for those looking for "trophies".
 
 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 08:42:39 PM by Ymeegod »

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #434 on: November 12, 2012, 10:18:59 PM »
Actually I think Nintendoland does have "achievements".

"We’ve heard for some time now that Wii U will offer something like achievements in the form of “Accomplishments,” but with something as important as an account-based feature it’s best not to assume until you’ve seen it in action. According to those who have gone hands-on with Nintendo Land, the game will make use of achievements, and they’ll take on the in-game form of stamps, trophies, and “Master Rank” stars.

You can rack up these accomplishments, as you might expect, by your performance in each of the attractions and by expanding your Nintendo Land plaza with special Nintendo-themed collectibles, which you’ll purchase with coins you earn as you play. Miiverse connectivity will also factor in via online leaderboards, as we’d heard previously."
In NSMB U there's an Challenge Mode option for those looking for "trophies".
 

care to link a source so you can put this dispute to bed?

Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #435 on: November 12, 2012, 11:05:43 PM »
I find achievements pretty worthless, Zynga-esque dopamine-addiction tools for the most part. The amount of times they've encouraged me to do something interesting vs. just activating dormant OCD receptors is slim. I would point to Bulletstorm, though, as a positive example of having ongoing activity goals that actually help sculpt the experience in interesting and rewarding ways. AND that system is primarily in-game, not system based.

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #436 on: November 12, 2012, 11:31:31 PM »
MagicCow64 dropping knowledge!

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #437 on: November 13, 2012, 12:08:59 AM »
I've never been a fan of achievements, or at least have never gone out of my way to get them. I think the only game that I've ever gotten 1000 points on was King Kong.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #438 on: November 13, 2012, 12:18:31 AM »
I'm not impressed with achievements. I know there are people who will actively go out and buy/rent and play games, even bad games, just to boost their achievement score. I don't know if that's because they really enjoy doing that, or because the extrinsic motivation of a gamer score is capable of over-riding their intrinsic motivation of playing for fun.

...But I guess even if that were the case, there's nothing wrong with extrinsic motivation: people are extrinsically motivated all the time! We do things we don't want to do because of money, because of authority, because of love... If it's because of a high score who's to say that's bad?

... Still, I'm not a fan of forcing achievements on every game, on every gamer, and on every interaction. I'm fine with a game-by-game basis. I'm fine with MiiVerse asking me if it's worth posting about something. I prefer that. Though it probably means that Nintendo is upholding their personal principles of fun in this case instead of exploiting human psychology for profit.
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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #439 on: November 13, 2012, 12:46:16 AM »
Though it probably means that Nintendo is upholding their personal principles of fun in this case instead of exploiting human psychology for profit.

Hah! Yes, Nintendo's complete reliance on nostalgia in pretty much every single one of their franchises certainly isn't "exploiting psychology" at all!  :P: ;)
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Offline Evan_B

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #440 on: November 13, 2012, 12:59:31 AM »
As much as I like showing off how much I've done, I can do so on a site like Backloggery and not my gamer account. Besides, the majority of games have absolutely ridiculous achievements that require little to no effort, so nothing lost there.
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Offline Ymeegod

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #441 on: November 13, 2012, 01:11:26 AM »
Why not check this site's homepage?  http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/31699

Offline MrPhishfood

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #442 on: November 13, 2012, 02:28:20 AM »

Hah! Yes, Nintendo's complete reliance on nostalgia in pretty much every single one of their franchises certainly isn't "exploiting psychology" at all!  :P: : : ;) 

What I think Kairon's trying to get across is Nintendo does not rely on negative aspects of the human mind. Such as when they said Animal Crossing would have no paid DLC because it would make the experience unwholesome. Though they didn't say it directly I interpreted it as "we don't want to make this a game about the have and have-nots"

Yes, 3 out of the 4 major PC/console gaming powers have adopted achievements as a standard practice: Microsoft, Sony, and Valve. Nintendo is the only company who doesn't. Whether you like them or not, that would make achievements an industry standard.

I had to go look this up, but my feeling about what "industry standard" means was fairly close.

Copy-pasted from somewhere else: Industry standard is the optimum criteria for any industry to function and carry out operation in their respective fields of production. For example, in the case of automobile industry, sizes of the tire serve as a means of standardization.

So unlike player control input, achievements aren't necessary for video gaming and so therefore are not industry standard. You could still say achievements are a widespread practice within the video game industry.

So because you can't handle achievement systems and you have psychological problems with other people online seeing your gaming progress, no one else should be allowed to enjoy such a system. OK, got it.  To each their own, man, but I think your reasoning is misguided and rationalizing.

Gamer profiles on 360 can always be set to private, other people seeing my score isn't an issue. I do have some accomplishments I am proud of, like full completion of Super Meat Boy. Apart from what I dislike about achievements there is another problem with them. Other people. Like going in to a co-op online game and instead of actually playing the game people are trying to get achievements.

I think achievements do more bad than good. For all the things that people like about achievements it can probably be done a different way with the exception of one. Getting a sense of self satisfaction from increasing your e-peen.

This argument about achievements could go back and forth forever. I've put forth my own clear cut opinion on achievements, so why don't you broodwars.

You said you like collecting them. What do you like about making that number bigger and bigger?
(is this also a phychological problem?)

Is there anything else that you like about the achievement systems?

For all the things you like do you think it can be implemented a different way?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 02:40:35 AM by MrPhishfood »

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #443 on: November 13, 2012, 11:05:36 AM »
Given that achievements are entirely optional, I don't get how so many people here are against them being there. When done well, they really add something to the game, and when they aren't done well you don't have to pay any attention to them. There is literally no downside to including them, at least as an option, and I think it's a mistake not to support something that everybody else does.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #444 on: November 13, 2012, 11:29:47 AM »
There is a downside. You see, when you... um... SHUT UP, THAT'S WHY!

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #445 on: November 13, 2012, 11:36:31 AM »
I certainly would rather achievements be there than not. I just know if the equivalents in Metroid and Pokemon don't do anything for me nothing will. Well except for Smash Bros of course, those things mean something!

In Pokemon when I'm accepting my long list of "achievements" I look away from the screen and just tap A until the guy rewarding me shuts up. I don't even know how I earned those things. This is from a guy with over 600 hours on Soul Silver, 598 hours on Black and almost 70 hours and counting on black 2.


I think Miiverse is going to prove way more hardcore and actually useful than achievements ever will.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 11:38:34 AM by Caterkiller »
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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #446 on: November 13, 2012, 11:50:50 AM »
Though it probably means that Nintendo is upholding their personal principles of fun in this case instead of exploiting human psychology for profit.

Hah! Yes, Nintendo's complete reliance on nostalgia in pretty much every single one of their franchises certainly isn't "exploiting psychology" at all!  :P: ;)

In this case. ^_~
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Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #447 on: November 13, 2012, 04:14:37 PM »
An easy way to defuse the debate would be for the achievement points to actually be worth something. Like, 1,000 points equals $1 on Xbox Live. You'd get a ton of user engagement in exchange for a mild discount on virtual wares, which are already free to reproduce.

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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #448 on: November 13, 2012, 04:18:00 PM »
They're doing something along those lines on Xbox Live now. You get rewards of Microsoft Spacebucks at certain times, and how much you get depends on your Gamerscore. It's basically nothing, but it's still sort of rewarding the score. Making them actually cost the company something is a really bad way to convince Nintendo to start doing them, though.
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Re: Wii U in Review (News & Rumor Consolidation)
« Reply #449 on: November 13, 2012, 06:05:18 PM »
Saw a clearer shot of the Wii U menu screen in one of the preview videos of chasing aurora.



Have to saw it looks much better in the clearer image. I do think it could be better but its a nice clean interface. I know I complained about it earlier, but looking at it more its nice and simple and has a nintendoish flair.

That's not to say I don't think they could do better.

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