Author Topic: Casual gamers are more picky than you  (Read 28068 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2010, 02:06:24 PM »
Is stuff like Uncharted or God of War really that much different from previous games if you ignore the new coat of paint? Sure, Nintendo doesn't even change the names on their games but slapping a new name and setting on there doesn't make Quake a new concept.

By the way, NSMBW was fairly risky because everybody thought that 2D retail games don't work on home consoles.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2010, 02:23:28 PM »
Quote
Is stuff like Uncharted or God of War really that much different from previous games if you ignore the new coat of paint? Sure, Nintendo doesn't even change the names on their games but slapping a new name and setting on there doesn't make Quake a new concept.

It's not much different, though there usually is some unique twist on the concept.  But it still is fresher and more of an effort than using the same coat of paint.  I understand there is only so much one can do.  I don't expect any company to bust out a completely unique idea every time.  Still if you can take existing genres and give it your own unique twist, well that's still something.  That's still better than the guy who is just making sequels.
 
Most movies are not that original because there are only so many story ideas that really work.  In the end what stands out is usually the specifics.  But I'm still going to prefer the guy who makes something new over the guy who just makes sequels, adaptations or remakes.
 
Most "innovative" games just take something that's already there and add something to it.  Wii Sports just takes existing sports which has all been done in videogames before and adds motion control.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

  • HI I'M CRAZY
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
    • Six Sided Video
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2010, 02:47:08 PM »
"Wii Sports just takes existing sports which has all been done in videogames before and adds motion control."

And after two decades of lazy, couch-ridden testosterone gaming, that's a big fucking deal.
:: Six Sided Video .com ~ Pietriots.com ::
PRO IS SERIOUS. GET SERIOUS.

Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2010, 05:26:29 PM »
You can crap on GTA and Halo and God of War and all this but it's no ****ing different at all.  The only reason those games are crapped on is because they're NOT ON THE WII.  Aside from the Wii___ series Nintendo has stuck almost entirely to really old franchises.  Meanwhile Sony, who gets crapped on, has Uncharted, Resistance and Infamous which are all brand new IP for this generation.  And even stuff like God of War, Killzone or Ratchet & Clank debuted only last gen.

Oh give me a f*cking break.  The reason why we crap on GTA and Halo is because these are the games that the Videogame media always praises with each new installment, even though they aren't that different from each other, but at the same time crap on Nintendo for releases sequels that are also similar.

Halo in particular always gets brought up because Halo 2 and 3 came out at the same time as Metroid Prime 2 and 3.  In every review of both Halo games, the reviewers would even mention how both games are similar to their predecessors but then say that's a good thing because of how good the last game was.  And yet for both Prime games, even though Prime 1 is one of the highest rated games off all time, both games got points docked just for being too similar.  Even though if you were to compare all the Metroid Prime games, the difference between each one is much bigger then the difference between all three Halo games.

Do you understand now, it's about fairness.  When the majority of the videogame media is nothing more then asshats, is it any wonder why Nintendo message boards like this one, that would contain *gasp* Nintendo fans are going to be annoyed and actually call out their BS.  If someone is going to b!tch about Nintendo games for having the same flaws as the oscar winning masterpiece they just gave a 10 and called perfect, these people are hypocrites and they and the games they just praised deserve to be called out for it.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2010, 06:03:43 PM »
Quote
When the majority of the videogame media is nothing more then asshats, is it any wonder why Nintendo message boards like this one, that would contain *gasp* Nintendo fans are going to be annoyed and actually call out their BS.

During the N64 years when Nintendo would release only about three games a year but every single one of them was given GOTY praise no one said a word about the videogame media.  Although you occasionally had some really out-there article Nintendo continued to be critical darlings, even though they were unpopular commercially.  And the out-there articles were truly exceptional.  You had that infamous Paper Mario review and IGN getting hung up on skins for Mario Kart.  But overall a Nintendo game came out and it got near unanimous praise aside from the occasional mistep like Yoshi's Story.  You can nitpick Metroid Prime 2's 92% to Halo 2's 94% but, really, that's splitting hairs.  The fact that they're both in that range indicates that the videogame media thought very favourably of both games.
 
The attitude that the videogame media is full of crap didn't come about until the Wii was out and critics started taking Nintendo to task for their casual focused titles.  Note that Super Mario Galaxy gets the old GOTY Nintendo-love.  It's only titles like Wii Music that get weaker scores.  I try these games out and I find them shallow and boring.  I imagine the media feels that same way.  The absolute best Wii games that aren't dumbed down casual affairs still get fantastic reviews.  If the media had some anti-Nintendo bias why would they still praise Nintendo's best games?
 
I go to other forums that are not Nintendo specific and I don't see any accusations of bias against the Wii.  I only see it on Nintendo focused sites.  I also notice that much of the anti-reviews crowd are the same people that reject the notion that the Wii's third party support is terrible.  It suggests to me that this is more about disliking criticism against Nintendo than any legitimate complaint about the videogame media.  I think that years of Nintendo being the underappreciated underdog has created an Nintendo vs. the world mentality with a lot of Nintendo fans.  There are forumers here who appear to DELIGHT in talented developers going under because of one flop on the PS3.  Such-and-such game is critically acclaimed but is not on the Wii and it bombs and there is celebration.
 
I don't like that.  What made me become a fan of Nintendo in the first place is a love of quality games.  They made the best games so it was natural to be a Nintendo fan.  So to me having any sort of ill feelings towards great games or talented devs is anti-Nintendo.  It's the same sort of immature bigotry we would see from Sony and MS fans who refused to give Nintendo any credit for being talented and took pleasure in Nintendo's shortcomings.  Some games are going to be overrated and some will be underrated and sometimes Nintendo is going to land on both sides of that fence, just like everyone else.  But overall I'd consider the videogame media to be as reliable as we could reasonably expect.

Offline Mop it up

  • And I've gotta say...
  • Score: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2010, 08:40:29 PM »
I think Ian Sane just made the post of the year, one that I will probably find myself quoting.

Offline Ymeegod

  • Score: -16
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2010, 12:51:22 AM »
"Hardcore gamer: elitist know-it-all"

That doesn't actually define what a hardcore gamer is, that just a sterotype and not an accurate one at that. There really isn't an grey area, it's like the question "are you in shape".  It's either yes or no.

As for Halo scores, you do realize most people rated the game high mostly for MP right?  If you were just rating the SP I doubt the Halo 2 or 3 game would even get an 8.  Similar to CoD, the MP is the meat of the game and the reason for higher scores.





Offline D_Average

  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2010, 01:19:25 AM »
As for Halo scores, you do realize most people rated the game high mostly for MP right?  If you were just rating the SP I doubt the Halo 2 or 3 game would even get an 8.  Similar to CoD, the MP is the meat of the game and the reason for higher scores.

You state this as if MP is inherently of a lesser value than SP. 
Don't hate me, hate the money I see, clothes that I buy
Ice that I wear, clothes that I try....

Offline Mop it up

  • And I've gotta say...
  • Score: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2010, 01:21:12 AM »
Please elaborate. At what point does one stop being "casual" and start being "hardcore"? Everyone seems to have their own opinion of when that point is, thereby making the terms useless and inaccurate.

Offline NWR_insanolord

  • Rocket Fuel Malt Liquor....DAMN!
  • NWR Staff Pro
  • Score: -18986
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2010, 01:32:39 AM »
Yeah, it's a pretty arbitrary distinction as it is; I don't see why it has to be as absolute as you're trying to make it, though I'm not very fond of the labels in any form.
Insanolord is a terrible moderator.

J.P. Corbran
NWR Community Manager and Soccer Correspondent

Offline Ymeegod

  • Score: -16
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2010, 01:48:52 AM »
The main point is what you're buying.  A casual gamer really doesn't have a clue on what's available so he/she is pretty much happy with just about anything.  A hardcore gamer knows what he/she is buying and at least what the game is comparable to others in their fields.

So say there's levels of hardcore which is true enough but once you cross the line there's no going back.  It like different levels of "fat".  There's what four stages of obesity now but once you hit the first stage you're already in the Not Fit state.

"You state this as if MP is inherently of a lesser value than SP.  "

No, I didn't state is that way.  The reason for Halo's success is mostly do to it's MP aspect of the game.  The SP mode is slighty above average but isn't anything comparable to Metroid Prime single player mode.

Offline Mop it up

  • And I've gotta say...
  • Score: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2010, 02:14:09 AM »
Consumer reviews show your assessment of "casual" gamers to be untrue: most give all of those Wii Sports knock-offs and other drivel low scores. Though your definition is too simple, as the only equation is knowledge and doesn't take into account other factors, such as the types of games one plays, how often they play, etc.

People are either gamers or they're not, that's the yes/no equation. There are many different types of gamers, which goes beyond just two types.

Offline Ymeegod

  • Score: -16
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2010, 02:33:09 AM »
? The reason why the give knock-off of WII sports a lower score is because they already played WII Sports?  And why did they end up buying/playing an knock off to begin with?       

And there's really not a time barrier required to be consider a hardcore gamer neither nor is it mastering controls neither.  That's more what you call a die-hard fan but that wouldn't make them exactly hardcore neither. 


Offline Mop it up

  • And I've gotta say...
  • Score: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2010, 02:55:34 AM »
Because they liked Wii Sports and they wanted more? And if they were truly happy with anything, they wouldn't dislike the Wii Sports clones.

So a die-hard fan is different than hardcore? This is starting to bore me.

Offline BeautifulShy

  • Shifting my body across the galaxy
  • Score: 79
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2010, 03:04:00 AM »
The "Hardcore" and "casual" talk is pointless. Everybody has different interpitations of these words and we basically go around in circles trying to define the words and in the end everybody looks like fools trying to figure out what they mean.

I have an idea. How about this.
EVERYBODY IS A GAMER
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
Alexis, she/her/Miss

Quote by Khushrenada in Safe Words 15.
Quote
I'm happy with thinking pokepal148 is just eating a stick of butter. It seems about right for him. I don't need no stinking facts.

Offline Ymeegod

  • Score: -16
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2010, 03:24:01 AM »
You miss the point?  If they didn't play WII Sports would their view of the knockoff's change?  They had to have played the best in order to have a standard to compare it to.  "they were truly happy with anything"  I never said that but casual gamers are less prickly about them.  For example alot of those Knockoff clones score 8/10 from "users" but barely 5/10 from reviewers?  Why, because reviwers played more of the genre and have a better grasp of what's available.

Die-hard fan is just that,  my friend Will for example.  He's a diehard Madden fan but outside of that one game he's a casual gamer.  He shouldn't be considered hardcore just because he's logged 1000's of hours or mastering all the moves in one game.  He couldn't tell you the difference between a Spyro game and a Mario one. 

Hardcore gamers tend to know what the standards are, you don't have to play ever genre neither but you should at least know what the top games are in those genres.



Offline Mop it up

  • And I've gotta say...
  • Score: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2010, 03:31:41 AM »
Well, I guess those are your standards and you're sticking to them. Good for you.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2010, 12:26:05 PM »
I think the definition of "hardcore" or "casual" is not that hard to determine.  It's intentionally made vague to discourage discussion.  "Well how to do you define something as casual?" is a way to dodge the issue.  Or another tactic is to take an old game that everyone likes and retroactively declare it as casual or as a non-game to suggest that nothing has changed and Nintendo hasn't changed.  But then the opposite occurs as well where someone just slaps the casual or non-game label on any game they don't like.

To me a game becomes casual when it is intentionally simplified for the purpose of attracting an audience that does not normally play videogames and does not have any specific interest in following the latest news regarding videogames.  Or if you prefer, a game is "core" if those that are interested enough in games to follow games on the internet or read gaming magazines (or used to when mags were the main source of news) would be interested in it.  To me it's no different than how a guitar magazine isn't going to bother covering guitars sold at Wal-Mart or Best Buy.  You don't need to know much about guitars to know that that's a "casual" guitar.

This became an issue once Nintendo started talking about casuals.  Casual games existed before but it was like Pop Cap games stuff.  But Nintendo was one of the "real" videogame companies and that's why this has been such an hot topic.  No one gives a **** about some nothing company making Wal-Mart guitars but Gibson or Fender starts talking about that and that changes things.

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2010, 04:00:42 PM »
My 2 cents:  Big games are overrated because more often than not, you have to sift through hours of crap to get to the good stuff, a la FFXIII.  There's a decent game in there somewhere, but for several hours, you'll just be watching cutscenes and hitting the X-button.

Why would a "casual" gamer wait through that type of thing, when Wii Sports Resort offers instant combat with realistic sword options that are easy to learn, but still pretty difficult to master?

So, if developers stop making gamers have to invest hours to get to the creamy nougat of a game, perhaps casual gamers would like "hardcore" games a bit more.  There's more to it, but basically, "hardcore" gamers will wade through terrible or dull parts of games, while more casual fans just become disenfranchised with the game if any part feels like a waste of time.

Offline Urkel

  • Reggie Fart-Aime
  • Score: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2010, 05:38:06 PM »
Going back to what the article actually said, it mentions how hype is very important to hardcore game sales, which I think is really the main point.
 
If "hardcore" gamers are as savvy as some would like to believe, then why do publishers spend so much advertising and hyping them up? 200 million dollars was spent on Modern Warfare 2's advertising campaign, and $2.5 million spent on Dante's Inferno for a Superbowl ad. "Hardcore" games are advertised nonstop on Adult Swim and Comedy Central.
 
Going by Ian's definition, these are all "hardcore"/"core" games, and the people interested in these games are the type to read gaming websites. So isn't it a waste to spend so much advertising these games? After all, these gamers will read reviews (which surely are never paid for) to know if a game is good or not.
"ROFS? Rolling on the floor... starving?"- Phoenix Wright

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2010, 05:53:03 PM »
Quote
My 2 cents:  Big games are overrated because more often than not, you have to sift through hours of crap to get to the good stuff, a la FFXIII.  There's a decent game in there somewhere, but for several hours, you'll just be watching cutscenes and hitting the X-button.

I partially agree with this.  I wouldn't say these games are necessarily overrated but some games have real pacing problems.  I don't mind cutscenes but they've got to be GOOD.  I have to find watching the cutscenes to be entertaining and that also means the story has to be half-decent as well.  I see the whole concept as something suitable for some games but is unfortunately used for all.
 
It seems what we need a punk movement for games.  Right now we're like in the game equivalent of progressive rock where everything has become a little too pretentious and bloated.  There was a time where practically all games just dumped you in the gameplay and away you go.  Not everything should be like that but those types of games became rare, which is stupid, really.
 
My problem with non-games is that they cut the filler but it's not like you get the same experience as a core game with all the cutscenes skipped.  You get something considerably more simplified.  What I'm looking for is more like NSMB Wii in that it's a return to the days where with a Mario game you started it up and jumped right into a level.  The gameplay retains the same complexity as a bloated game would.  When I suggest "punk games" I mean something straightforward but without compromising the gameplay.
 
Final Fantasy XIII does it all wrong.  It simplifies the gameplay but keeps the filler.  The towns and sidequests and nonlinear design was the fucking gameplay.  It's force feeding the player an embarassing story that needed to be scaled back.
 
I see two extremes that both suck.  On the casual side we see games the strip out challenge, depth and complexity to attract the mainstream and on the core side we see games that are so wrapped up in the narrative and presentation that they become more linear and give the player less control and make the player watch the coolest parts of the game instead of playing them.  We need something in between.

Offline ThePerm

  • predicted it first.
  • Score: 64
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2010, 06:31:27 PM »
a punk game movement

you mean Wario Ware?
NWR has permission to use any tentative mockup/artwork I post

Offline that Baby guy

  • He's a real Ei-Ei-Poo!
  • Score: 379
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2010, 07:42:19 PM »
Quote
My 2 cents:  Big games are overrated because more often than not, you have to sift through hours of crap to get to the good stuff, a la FFXIII.  There's a decent game in there somewhere, but for several hours, you'll just be watching cutscenes and hitting the X-button.

I partially agree with this.  I wouldn't say these games are necessarily overrated but some games have real pacing problems.  I don't mind cutscenes but they've got to be GOOD.  I have to find watching the cutscenes to be entertaining and that also means the story has to be half-decent as well.  I see the whole concept as something suitable for some games but is unfortunately used for all.
 
It seems what we need a punk movement for games.  Right now we're like in the game equivalent of progressive rock where everything has become a little too pretentious and bloated.  There was a time where practically all games just dumped you in the gameplay and away you go.  Not everything should be like that but those types of games became rare, which is stupid, really.
 
My problem with non-games is that they cut the filler but it's not like you get the same experience as a core game with all the cutscenes skipped.  You get something considerably more simplified.  What I'm looking for is more like NSMB Wii in that it's a return to the days where with a Mario game you started it up and jumped right into a level.  The gameplay retains the same complexity as a bloated game would.  When I suggest "punk games" I mean something straightforward but without compromising the gameplay.
 
Final Fantasy XIII does it all wrong.  It simplifies the gameplay but keeps the filler.  The towns and sidequests and nonlinear design was the fucking gameplay.  It's force feeding the player an embarassing story that needed to be scaled back.
 
I see two extremes that both suck.  On the casual side we see games the strip out challenge, depth and complexity to attract the mainstream and on the core side we see games that are so wrapped up in the narrative and presentation that they become more linear and give the player less control and make the player watch the coolest parts of the game instead of playing them.  We need something in between.

I'm not going to argue much on FFXIII specifically, since before I pass a complete judgement on it, I want to get to the part of the game that's relevant to the big picture, and it's too far in for me to be there yet.

Rather, I'm going to say that we all know the issue with "casual" games is that many don't have the polish needed to become a good game.  Still, that's not what the argument is about, but rather why casual gamers are more picky than hardcore ones.  It's not about casual games versus hardcore ones, but rather casual gamers vs. hardcore gamers, in the aspect of how they discriminate in their purchase decisions.

At this point, I'd be willing to say this:  Games casual gamers like are social.  They're titles that either other people can sit down and watch them play and enjoy, or titles they can play with or against other people.  Something like Uncharted 2, while I've never played it, seems to be marketed with this aspect in mind.  Remember the commercials with the gamer talking about how his girlfriend thought it was a movie?  Nintendo's response is to involve the second person, and even let them become a "back-seat" gamer, with Super Mario Galaxy and Sin and Punishment 2 both having Wii-pointer shooting controls, but no on-screen avatar to physically represent the player.  I'm not going all out, and I'm not mentioning everything partly because that would take some time, and partly because it's something I've been toying around with writing an article or a series of articles on PixlBit about, but that's one basic thing successful "core" games have done to make previously single-player titles more social.

Offline Guitar Smasher

  • Score: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2010, 10:33:53 PM »
I partially agree with this.  I wouldn't say these games are necessarily overrated but some games have real pacing problems.  I don't mind cutscenes but they've got to be GOOD.  I have to find watching the cutscenes to be entertaining and that also means the story has to be half-decent as well.  I see the whole concept as something suitable for some games but is unfortunately used for all.
 
It seems what we need a punk movement for games.  Right now we're like in the game equivalent of progressive rock where everything has become a little too pretentious and bloated.  There was a time where practically all games just dumped you in the gameplay and away you go.  Not everything should be like that but those types of games became rare, which is stupid, really.
 
My problem with non-games is that they cut the filler but it's not like you get the same experience as a core game with all the cutscenes skipped.  You get something considerably more simplified.  What I'm looking for is more like NSMB Wii in that it's a return to the days where with a Mario game you started it up and jumped right into a level.  The gameplay retains the same complexity as a bloated game would.  When I suggest "punk games" I mean something straightforward but without compromising the gameplay.
 
Final Fantasy XIII does it all wrong.  It simplifies the gameplay but keeps the filler.  The towns and sidequests and nonlinear design was the ****ing gameplay.  It's force feeding the player an embarassing story that needed to be scaled back.
 
I see two extremes that both suck.  On the casual side we see games the strip out challenge, depth and complexity to attract the mainstream and on the core side we see games that are so wrapped up in the narrative and presentation that they become more linear and give the player less control and make the player watch the coolest parts of the game instead of playing them.  We need something in between.
So we need arcade-style games?  I completely agree.

Offline Ymeegod

  • Score: -16
    • View Profile
Re: Casual gamers are more picky than you
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2010, 01:54:32 AM »
Doesn't that depend on the gamer?  Some gamers love stories and others love gameplay.  Take Mass Effect 2 for example, getting great reviews but the core gameplay is a pretty bland shooter--it's the story and characters that drive the game.  It's to bad that the developers "dumb" downed ME2 by getting rid of much of the RPG elements like LOOT/Weapons/armor.