Topic: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010

[TJ Spyke]

Isn't the 360 arcade model actually cheaper than the Wii? Or at least the same price? Someone could just get that and then add Natal to it, I suppose.

In the US they are the same price: $199.99. I think it varies in other countries.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Could MS & Sony have switched the names for their motion controllers around by accident?

Natal To Be Christened 'Wave' At E3?
It sure sounds like it doesn't it...

At E3 next month Microsoft plans to unveil all the details on Project Natal - including its new name...

NowGamer has learnt from a source close to Microsoft that the official name for Project Natal will be revealed as 'Wave' at the event in Los Angeles next month. Other recent rumours have suggested prices and release dates for the camera-based motion control system.

'Wave' certainly seems to fit the peripheral's demographic - especially considering the 'Move' branding for PlayStation's motion control rival. What do you think; will we all be playing Xbox Wave games come Christmas? Let us know...

[sunan]

Looking   forward to the next round.

[Chozo Ghost]

The history of video-gaming has shown time and time again that addon peripherals (Sega CD, 32X, N64 DD, etc.) VERY VERY seldom become successful.  The PS3 Move and this NATAL thing are peripheral addons, so they will face the very same challenges other addons have faced in the past. It doesn't necessarily mean they will fail, but we shouldn't be surprised if they do fail because that's how those things tend to go.

But the one thing MS has that previous peripheral makers (like SEGA) didn't have is oodles and oodles of money. If NATAL fails then it won't be a life or death crisis for MS the way it almost was for SEGA. If that happens, MS will probably quietly sweep NATAL under the rug and immediately put out a Wiimote like option instead.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Does no one else thing that if MS renames Natal to Wave, that Move and Wave have the wrong names and should be switched?

Disco Stick is more of a Wave(you wave a stick around) and Natal it more of a Move(you have to get up and actually move around).

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

How about Fail and Flop?

[Ian Sane]

The history of video-gaming has shown time and time again that addon peripherals (Sega CD, 32X, N64 DD, etc.) VERY VERY seldom become successful.  The PS3 Move and this NATAL thing are peripheral addons, so they will face the very same challenges other addons have faced in the past. It doesn't necessarily mean they will fail, but we shouldn't be surprised if they do fail because that's how those things tend to go.

One thing that is a big different is that for MS and Sony this could be effectively their next gen.  Seriously are they going to up the specs again at this point?  The PS3 just recently became affordable.  I think the challenge is in convincing the customer that THIS is their next gen.  Instead of selling a new console they're selling this add-on.  One reason add-ons failed in the past was because we all knew next gen was coming.  So I think the challenge is in making people believe that this is it and that it's going to last five years and no successor is on the doorstep.
 
I'm wondering if they should take a GBC approach to this.  The GBC was really just a stop gap before the GBA.  But the GBC sold very well.  There was a lot of emphasis on backwards compatibility and how most GBC games would also work on the original Game Boy.  It like there was a lot of care put towards pleasing people that already had regular Game Boys so they didn't have to feel like upgrading right away was mandatory.
 
Now I think MS has to make Move available sold seperately for the existing users.  But I'm almost thinking they should market the Xbox 360/Wave bundle as if it's a whole new console.  Give the bundle a unique name and logo.  Redesign the case so that it looks different.  I'm thinking maybe they should act like the Xbox Wave is a new console but they're so "generous" to their existing userbase that one can also buy a Wave "add-on" to "convert" their Xbox 360 into a Wave.  However Xbox 360s are no longer manufactured and Xbox Waves are all you see in stores.  All new games have the Xbox Wave logo on them with a little "compatible with the Xbox 360" indicator on them if applicable.
 
Imagine if a 32X/Genesis combo and a Saturn were the same thing and played the same games.  Would the 32X have been such a bomb then?

[Chozo Ghost]

I don't think they will do that, Ian. The reason is because they didn't do that with the HD-DVD thing. If MS had actually built it into the 360 (or at least bundled it with new systems) then there would have been a far better chance HD-DVD could have won the format war awhile back, but MS didn't do that. Maybe its just because they were afraid the format would fail (which it did) and didn't want to be dragged down with it, which is possible, but I think it was more just an oversight. I don't think they really grasped the difficulty in selling the peripheral model and probably seriously thought they were doing things right. So that's what could happen here with NATAL as well. Hell, maybe MS is afraid to build it into their system because they fear it will fail? That might actually be something they're worried about, but if it isn't then the other reason they might leave it out is because they just don't know any better and think it will sell well as an extra peripheral.

If Sony/MS treat this as their "next gen" then it might work out, but odds are they'll just pull a Sega and then announce the Xbox 460 and PS4 before those addons have a time to really catch on, and then consumers would just save their money causing the addons to flop. What you're suggesting does make sense from a logical standpoint, but I just have my doubts that MS/Sony will do that. Sega didnt' follow that road, and there's no reason to believe the people running these companies are any smarter than Sega was back in the mid-90s. Remember how MS had to beat everyone else by launching the 360 a year ahead of the competition? Well, that strategy worked out well for them because they are leading the PS3 right now, so they will look at that strategy as a success and probably want to repeat it by getting the 460 out ASAP. Remember, their console has been out for about 5 years now, so for them they probably sense it is time. Not to mention the fact the 360 isn't quite powerful enough to handle NATAL fully.

[NWR_insanolord]

Microsoft isn't confident enough in Natal/Wave to do that. It's like calling the DS a third pillar. Nintendo didn't actually believe that; they just wanted to be able to abandon it if it didn't work out without tainting the brand. If Natal fails as an add-on, that's bad, but add-ons fail all the time. If Microsoft touts Natal as the next generation and the future of the Xbox brand and it still fails, that's much, much worse.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't think they will do that, Ian. The reason is because they didn't do that with the HD-DVD thing.

MS had no financial investment in HDDVD so why would they redesign their system around it when the games couldn't me made to support it since the system had already been out for a year without it and the add-on was too expensive to expect everyone to buy one or to jack the price of the 360 back up when MS was eagerly trying to get it as low as possible as quickly as possible. That just wouldn't make sense and is the wrong comparison to make.

As far as rebranding the 360 with Natal/Wave as a new console launch, that is exactly what MS has been saying they were gonna do. There is even a new motherboard that is about 20% smaller than the last. About MS changing the entire look of the 360 for the Natal/Wave rebranding....

Microsoft isn't confident enough in Natal/Wave to do that. It's like calling the DS a third pillar. Nintendo didn't actually believe that; they just wanted to be able to abandon it if it didn't work out without tainting the brand. If Natal fails as an add-on, that's bad, but add-ons fail all the time. If Microsoft touts Natal as the next generation and the future of the Xbox brand and it still fails, that's much, much worse.

I agree.

Changing the branding to 360 Natal with a slightly shrunken 360 would be good, but cahnging the entire look of the box to match the Wave/Natal, rebranding it so you associate it with the Wave/Natal & only selling the rebranded bundled version then having the whole thing fail, would not be good for the brand at all.

[Ian Sane]

Chozo, I really don't think MS or Sony will do what I suggested.  But they probably should.  What I think will happen is that they'll just offer half-baked Wii Sports knock offs and no one will care.  But it doesn't have to be that way.

I think any PS4 or Xbox 460 released in the next few years will bomb.  They overextended themselves this gen and the market embraced the cheaper Gamecube 1.5.  If no one bought a PS3 when it was $600 why would anyone buy a PS4 at that price?  The whole problem for Sony and MS this gen was that their consoles were too expensive and were not offering a noticable enough leap for the average person.  How do you possibly make something affordable that will have a significant enough step up from the current consoles to make people say "wow"?

I think for both of them this motion control stuff is IT.  That's their only real chance to do something different that people will notice.  If it bombs though I guess their best bet is to just ride the storm with what they got.  They've got the third party support and remain relevent despite the Wii's dominance.  Not sure what they can do when Nintendo introduces the Wii's successor though.  Will they keep the third party support advantage if all three consoles are on even footing hardware-wise?

[Chozo Ghost]

Changing the branding to 360 Natal with a slightly shrunken 360 would be good, but cahnging the entire look of the box to match the Wave/Natal, rebranding it so you associate it with the Wave/Natal & only selling the rebranded bundled version then having the whole thing fail, would not be good for the brand at all.

Agreed, but by not supporting the addon full force MS increases the odds that it will fail. So they can keep their distance from it and half-ass it and that means it will be less disastrous when it fails; OR they can support it full-force and make it the new standard for their consoles and that way it becomes much less likely to fail... although if it DOES fail then its far more of a disaster.

So that's a tough call, but I think with MS's deep pockets and their non-reliance on the xbox division for their revenue it would probably be best if they supported wave full force. That way it would be a huge disaster if it fails, but it wouldn't cripple the company or anything like that the way it did to SEGA, and at the same time it would also be much less likely to flop with the full support behind it.

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/02/project-natal-retail-unit-revealed-at-d8/

Natal looks huge.

[Caterkiller]

It is kind of big, to me anyway. I was expecting a second 360 stacked on top of the first.

[BlackNMild2k1]

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/02/project-natal-retail-unit-revealed-at-d8/

Natal looks huge.

Here is a video to go with that pic
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2012011196_d8_project_natal_demo_-_no_new.html


Natal pics up someone else walking on stage and it messed up the presentation for a second

and the second video as a bad case of jello legs on the avatar.
But I'm sure these are issues that can ironed out as more time goes by.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Looks like another rumored launch Natal game is being reworked to fit into he control scheme.

Joy Ride becomes Project Natal launch game

Microsoft's arcade racer Joy Ride has been reworked as a Natal launch title, CVG can reveal. According to a senior retail source, the title will be available on Natal from day one later this year - and will no longer be free-to-play. In development at first party studio BigPark, the avatar-based game was unveiled as a free-to-play Xbox Live Arcade title at last year's E3.

Having initially been due for release in late 2009, the game was reported to be missing in action earlier this week after its listing was wiped from Xbox.com. Microsoft responded to requests for comment by saying that it planned to "bring BigPark's vision to life in 2010", adding that it had "nothing further to announce at this time".

Our source told us the game had been "completely reworked" for Natal. "The hope for us is that it will be a boxed release - we're still in the dark on that one - but it's definitely for Natal and will definitely be here for launch," our source said.

"We've been told it will no longer be free to play, but that it's been completely reworked into a bigger, richer game than before. They're putting the final touches to it now. The biggest thing for us is that it just works with Natal's racing controls. We're reliably informed it's very intuitive."

It's due to be unveiled on Sunday, June 13 at E3 2010 - the date of Microsoft's special Natal-centric event.

CVG has contacted Microsoft for comment.

Image: http://xboxlivemedia.ign.com/xboxlive/image/article/102/1027913/joy-ride-20090923075157676_640w.jpg

[MaryJane]

In a surprising expose on the seedy underbelly of pre-release gaming demos for the whole family, Parade Magazine's own A.J. Jacobs reports on a bit of fun gone awry. Mr. Jacobs details the horrific scene: "We next tried an obstacle course where you have to dart under trees and jump over logs. I was really working it, leaning my body and windmilling my arms. Unfortunately, Zane, 3, wandered a bit too close to me and, well, I inadvertently smacked him in the face. He started crying." Luckily, Zane bounced back quickly, and the Jacobs household (6-year-old Jasper was also in attendance) quickly determined that their best chances at beating the few Project Natal demos Microsoft was showing them might involve benching the old man.

So it's dangerous for little kids and too involved for more seasoned gamers... who are they expecting to play this? People too lazy to walk to the pizza store 5 blocks away and instead call for delivery?


Oh, and I know there have been Wii accidents but those involving bodily harm have been minimal, and I could totally see someone losing their balance and knocking over or running head first into a T.V with the Natal, or Move.


Edit: Link: http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/04/natal-river-rush-gameplay-glimpsed-first-wild-gesticulation-r/
The video doesn't show the accident, but it shows some gameplay and as the link says 'wild-gesticulation' this video makes Natal look very unappealing to me...

[BlackNMild2k1]

Who doesn't think this looks like hours of fun?


& who doesn't have enough livingroom space to double as a 1 (or 2 if you park sideways) car garage?

[Chozo Ghost]

So, will the next Halo game make use of this thing?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I hope.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Miyamoto: MS and Sony motion devices are “threatening”

Nintendo’s Shigeru Miyamoto’s told Edge that Microsoft and Sony’s rush to motion with Natal and Move is “threatening” behaviour.
 
 â€śWhenever something we have created and presented is followed by copies, we always feel it is threatening,” said the dev legend.
 
 â€śMore than that, we’re concerned that others are trying to do something similar for the sake of it. It’s not encouraging to Nintendo.”
 
 The exec was answering a question on whether or not he saw parallels between the uptake of motion controllers and the “borrowing” of analog sticks in the PlayStation generation.
 
 Both Natal and Move will release towards the end of this year, and both  will feature heavily at E3 later this month.
 
 Nintendo will show its latest hardware, 3DS, at the LA event.

[Ian Sane]

Nobody tries to do something similar for the sake of it.  Innovation for the sake of innovation is common but copycat stuff exists to get in on the current big thing.  Nintendo mentioned that they felt they were introducing a new standard.  Well that means the rest of the industry is going to copy you.  Do they expect all three consoles to have completely incompatible controller methods?  Wait, scratch that, that seems like the sort of the thing Nintendo WOULD expect.

It's good that Nintendo feels threatened.  Competition drives companies to do better.  I think with the Wii Nintendo has felt untouchable and their output has suffered.  They need something to threaten them.  Though I don't think either Sony or MS will be able to do that.  I figure their stuff will be lame and Nintendo's motion control will remain the best by default.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I think it sounds more like MS & Sony are only releasing this because Nintendo made it popular and not because they had any idea of what they wanted to do with it. Making the tech and then shoe-horning it in to their own games with out any vision or inspiration is damaging to the market and image that Nintendo has created for "motion" controls over the last 5 years.

I don't personally think Nintendo cares about MS or Sony copying the implementation cause that was expected. But when all they have to show is Slap Balls, Wii Sports clones and copy cat of other various games that just 2 years ago they were making fun of and calling stupid, then they aren't really doing anybody any favors.

Those same uninspired cash-grabs are gonna sour the new audience to "motion" controls and that is threatening to Nintendo's present and future business strategy.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I'm beginning to see double.  Is this Nintendo's new 3D at work?

There is nothing to see over here.

[Ian Sane]

Those same uninspired cash-grabs are gonna sour the new audience to "motion" controls and that is threatening to Nintendo's present and future business strategy.

I understand the concern.  But I think the old Bible verse about removing the plank from one's own eye before focusing on the splinter in your brother's applies here.  Motion controls are associated with casual shovelware because that's the way things are on the Wii.  It isn't like Nintendo has this super high standard of motion control that is going to have its reputation sullied by Sony and MS copying it.  Nintendo is the company that started this whole casual game stuff.  They don't make the outright trash that third parties do but they set the template with Wii Sports.  Good or bad, third parties followed their lead and that's why the Wii became the casual console.  And Nintendo has released outright junk like Wii Music so they aren't completely innocent.  They've also been responsible for waggle games.  Hell they started that trend to by porting a Gamecube Zelda game to the Wii and replacing the controls with gesture based waggle.
 
Motion control already has a reputation for being a mainstream pandering gimmick associated with casual games.  And right now Nintendo is the only company offering it.  If anything is going to hurt Nintendo's success it should be their own uninspired mini-game comps or their last gen waggle ports.  I think the Wii's horrible third party support is more likely to threaten their future business than Sony or MS "ruining" motion control.  Motion control's image is already damaged by the Wii.  Sony and MS are only going the casual route with their products because that's what Nintendo has done.
 
Nintendo are the pioneers of motion control.  It will go in the direction that they lead it in.  It's their responsibility to take it to the next level.  Sony, MS and the entire videogame industry pigeonholes motion control as a casual thing because they are merely copying Nintendo and Nintendo has not made it anything more than that.