Author Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword  (Read 622957 times)

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Offline TJ Spyke

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1825 on: November 17, 2011, 09:45:20 PM »
Um, the only review controversy regarding Kane & Lynch was with GameSpot, not GameStop (the only controversy with them was when Game Informer gave an extremely low score to Paper Mario: TTYD).

But, I agree that there is something fishy when a game gets almost universal praise except for one or two reviewers (or vice-versa).
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Offline broodwars

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1826 on: November 17, 2011, 09:49:02 PM »
I haven't played Skyward Sword yet - but it seems like GameSpot's score is horse ****. The game has a 95 on Metacritic after 37 reviews, with well over half of them being perfect 10s. GameSpot is the only one to give it less than an 8. Clearly they're looking for hits.

I don't think we can say that until we've played the game ourselves and see if we have the same issues.  GameSpot was accused of exactly the same kind of grandstanding with their 8.8 review of Twilight Princess, and few would say now that their review was completely off-base.

Quote
On a side note, there's a hilarious article on GameStop pointing out that the people who made the new Jurassic Park game have been putting out bogus reviews to boost the score - when GameStop themselves fired one of their own employees a few years ago because he didn't rate Kand and Lynch high enough like Eidos was paying off GameSpot to do.

On a further side note, I finished the Jurassic Park game last night and wrote up my impressions here under our User Reviews forum.  I thought it was pretty good, though it's going to be an extremely polarizing game due to its Heavy Rain influence.
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Offline Mop it up

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1827 on: November 17, 2011, 09:56:55 PM »
I think there's something fishy at hand when people question the validity of a review of a game they haven't even played. It's interesting how Zelda has become such a sacred series that if it doesn't get a 10 from a publication, people would rather question the credibility of said publication than ponder the idea that there could be flaws in the game. Unfortunately, this probably means that some places will hand out a 10 just to avoid the controversy it'd cause if they gave something lower.

Offline Ceric

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1828 on: November 17, 2011, 10:35:32 PM »
Even eliminating perfect scores 7.5 is a far outlier and in general now days anything below an 8 is for a competent maybe good game.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1829 on: November 17, 2011, 11:13:08 PM »
Not having played the game doesn't mean you shouldn't at least be curious at such a low score compared to basically everyone else.
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Offline Enner

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1830 on: November 18, 2011, 12:06:11 AM »
Even eliminating perfect scores 7.5 is a far outlier and in general now days anything below an 8 is for a competent maybe good game.

Gamespot trying to use the full range of their point scale. They classify 7.0 and 7.5 as good. Higher than that is great, superb, and prime.

Offline Luigi Dude

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1831 on: November 18, 2011, 01:47:18 AM »
Not having played the game doesn't mean you shouldn't at least be curious at such a low score compared to basically everyone else.

The problem is a lot of people who haven't played the game love to act like the lowest scores are the most accurate just because they're low.  It makes me wonder if I was to make a website and give Ocarina of Time a 4/10, does that mean my review would now be considered the most accurate just because it's the lowest by far even though Ocarina of Time has a 98% average?

Yes it's worth reading low reviews to see why people didn't like the game but the lowest reviews shouldn't be considered more important than the highest reviews, since usually the lowest and highest reviews are both results of biases the reviewers might have.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1832 on: November 18, 2011, 02:05:32 AM »
AHHH I CAN'T DO MOTION CONTROL EVEN THOUGH CHILDREN A QUARTER OF MY AGE CAN SO I'LL BITCH ABOUT IT AHHH


Honestly, no (physical) problems with motions controls here. Don't know what your issue is.


I haven't played Skyward Sword so have no idea how valid criticism from that particular review is. However, I have witnessed this reaction first-hand from dozens of gamers who simply can't adjust to having to do more than press a button. When the majority of reviews posted praise the controls for being responsive and intuitive it makes me wonder what they are doing that this particular reviewer isn't.


(It also reminds me of Okami, where dozens of reviews deducted points because "it was impossible to draw a straight line"... yet in the opening tutorial the game explicitly showed you how and it was clearly stated in the manual. Is it the fault of the game that some gamers didn't pay attention to either? How much hand-holding is necessary these days?)


Add that to the fact that being the lowest review score for a major Nintendo franchise is guaranteed to drive traffic - which it certainly has - and the whole thing seems suspect to me. Then again, maybe Skyward Sword deserves the same score as Lost in Shadow (also a 7.5 from the same reviewer). We'll let history be the judge.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1833 on: November 18, 2011, 02:46:33 AM »
Just for reference, I looked at the last 20 Wii reviews done by this reviewer. The chart below shows the results, with the first number being his score, the second being the Metacritic average adjusted to a 10-point scale, and the third being the differential.



Zelda Skyward Sword:                     7.5        9.5        -2.0
Capain America:                          6.0        5.7        +0.3
Thor: God of Thunder:                    5.5        5.6        -0.1
Conduit 2:                               7.0        6.4        +0.6
LEGO Star Wars III:                      6.5        7.6        -1.1
Mario Sports Mix:                        4.0        6.4        -2.4
Lost in Shadow:                          7.5        6.8        +0.7
Disney Epic Mickey:                      6.0        7.3        -1.3
Donkey Kong Country Returns:             8.5        8.7        -0.2
GoldenEye 007:                           8.5        8.1        +0.4
Kirby's Epic Yarn:                       8.5        8.6        -0.1
NBA Jam:                                 7.0        7.9        -0.9
Batman: The Brave and the Bold:          7.0        7.0        0.0
Metroid Other M:                         8.5        7.9        +0.6
Madden 11:                               6.0        7.5        -1.5
Tournament of Legends:                   4.5        4.5        0
Super Mario Galaxy 2:                    10         9.7        +0.3
Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands:   7.5        7.7        -0.2
Mega Man 10:                             8.0        8.1        -0.1
Sonic & Sega All Star Racing:            8.0        7.8        +0.2


He is usually very close to the Metacritic average, but with an average of -0.34 difference.  Take out the two largest outliers (both negative, Skyward Sword and Mario Sports Mix) and the average difference drops to -0.13.

So it's not "using the full 10 point scale" that causes the difference, and also doesn't appear that he has an axe to grind - well, maybe against Wii-based sports games.


(Edited to fix columns.)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:54:45 AM by ejamer »
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Offline Enner

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1834 on: November 18, 2011, 02:57:47 AM »
When the majority of reviews posted praise the controls for being responsive and intuitive it makes me wonder what they are doing that this particular reviewer isn't.

The Gametrailers review has yet to be posted, but discussion of Skyward Sword on episode 185 of the Invisible Walls podcast ( http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-185-invisible-walls/723938 - starts at 9:14, there's an MP3 version too) echoes the issues the Gamespot review brings. The controls work 80% of the time, and the 20% when it doesn't is extremely infuriating. Also, the players have trouble tossing or rolling bombs.

Add that to the fact that being the lowest review score for a major Nintendo franchise is guaranteed to drive traffic - which it certainly has - and the whole thing seems suspect to me. Then again, maybe Skyward Sword deserves the same score as Lost in Shadow (also a 7.5 from the same reviewer). We'll let history be the judge.

Tom Mc Shea gave a hard review to Infamous 2 with a 7.0. He really likes Infamous (1) and the Zelda series. He has a record of being a tough critic (if you think calling Infamous 2 and Skyward Sword "good" to be tough).

Offline broodwars

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1835 on: November 18, 2011, 03:13:36 AM »
When the majority of reviews posted praise the controls for being responsive and intuitive it makes me wonder what they are doing that this particular reviewer isn't.

The Gametrailers review has yet to be posted, but discussion of Skyward Sword on episode 185 of the Invisible Walls podcast ( http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-185-invisible-walls/723938 - starts at 9:14, there's an MP3 version too) echoes the issues the Gamespot review brings. The controls work 80% of the time, and the 20% when it doesn't is extremely infuriating. Also, the players have trouble tossing or rolling bombs.

The Gametrailers review as since been posted, and it's a 9.1.  The criticisms of the game pretty much boil down to how much the reviewer thinks the Zelda formula is feeling its age, and that (once again, in their opinion) the industry has advanced beyond game design like this (with a few notes about the controls).  It's not anywhere near as negative as Shane's impressions from Invisible Walls.

There's actually something very curious about that review: early in the review, the writer complains about the dungeons having "some of the most complicated and frustrating designs in the franchise."  Yet a few minutes later, he calls the dungeons "some of the best the franchise has ever seen."  That seems just as tad bit contradictory to me.

Personally, I don't find the reviewer who labels a Nintendo game with a 7.5 score any more questionable than a reviewer who gives out a 10.  Scores have gotten so ridiculously inflated over the years (something I heavily blame on Game Informer's insane "a 7.0 is an average score" review policy) that I've grown to heavily distrust the extremely high scores.  That's especially true for Nintendo games, as some reviewers seem to treat certain Nintendo franchises like sacred cows, never to be given a less-than-stellar review under any circumstances.  Then you just have the trolls like Jim Sterling, of course.

We'll see for ourselves, of course.  My personal observation, based on the complaints and praises I've seen, is that most gamers will probably agree that the game is probably around a 9 or 9.5/10 after everyone's played it and the hype has died down a bit.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 03:16:48 AM by broodwars »
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1836 on: November 18, 2011, 04:23:14 AM »
Review posted November 12. Damn, wonder how i missed that.

From the other Invisible Walls commentator who finished the game and seemed to be the reviewer, I wasn't expecting the 9.1 score. Hmm, guess those two were just venting their frustrations in that segment. I'm curious to hear if Shane has a change of heart on Skyward Sword in the next Invisible Walls. He seemed to be disappointed and frustrated with the early parts of the game.

One statement in the Gametrailers review that made me wonder is the complaint on the lack of variety and mini-games. Were there a lot of side quests and other things to do in past Zelda games? I do remember the fishing in Ocarina of Time, the photography and other stuff in Wind Waker, and fishing again in Twilight Princess. Ah, with having yet to play Skyward Sword, it would be impossible for me to make a comparison.

Offline Killer_Man_Jaro

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1837 on: November 18, 2011, 07:50:51 AM »
It's launch day here in Europe, and for once, the postal service is timely. That's right, my copy of Skyward Sword arrived this morning. Oh, happy day! So yeah, you might not hear from me for a while...
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1838 on: November 18, 2011, 07:59:17 AM »
I'm envious!  Mine won't arrive until Nov 23rd. Have fun!
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Offline Ceric

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1839 on: November 18, 2011, 10:25:17 AM »
I'm envious!  Mine won't arrive until Nov 23rd. Have fun!
Yeah that Stinks.  I'm actually going to hunt it down release day and cancel my Amazon order if I can find it because it won't be here till then.

Just for reference, I looked at the last 20 Wii reviews done by this reviewer. The chart below shows the results, with the first number being his score, the second being the Metacritic average adjusted to a 10-point scale, and the third being the differential.



Zelda Skyward Sword:                     7.5        9.5        -2.0
Capain America:                          6.0        5.7        +0.3
Thor: God of Thunder:                    5.5        5.6        -0.1
Conduit 2:                               7.0        6.4        +0.6
LEGO Star Wars III:                      6.5        7.6        -1.1
Mario Sports Mix:                        4.0        6.4        -2.4
Lost in Shadow:                          7.5        6.8        +0.7
Disney Epic Mickey:                      6.0        7.3        -1.3
Donkey Kong Country Returns:             8.5        8.7        -0.2
GoldenEye 007:                           8.5        8.1        +0.4
Kirby's Epic Yarn:                       8.5        8.6        -0.1
NBA Jam:                                 7.0        7.9        -0.9
Batman: The Brave and the Bold:          7.0        7.0        0.0
Metroid Other M:                         8.5        7.9        +0.6
Madden 11:                               6.0        7.5        -1.5
Tournament of Legends:                   4.5        4.5        0
Super Mario Galaxy 2:                    10         9.7        +0.3
Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands:   7.5        7.7        -0.2
Mega Man 10:                             8.0        8.1        -0.1
Sonic & Sega All Star Racing:            8.0        7.8        +0.2


He is usually very close to the Metacritic average, but with an average of -0.34 difference.  Take out the two largest outliers (both negative, Skyward Sword and Mario Sports Mix) and the average difference drops to -0.13.

So it's not "using the full 10 point scale" that causes the difference, and also doesn't appear that he has an axe to grind - well, maybe against Wii-based sports games.


(Edited to fix columns.)

I would argue that according to those scores that he thinks that Skyward Sword is at the same level as Prince of Persia: The Forgotten Sands and that Megaman 10 and Sonic & Sega All Star Racing.

But then are resident site overlord would sweep in and say...

...
Don't judge review scores by other games given that score. Judge them by the text. There is no such thing as a standard score. There is no science to game reviews. It's all opinion.
...

So technically Neal could have given Zelda a 1.

Oh also the forum do support tables.  Its just (Add the [ Bracket):

table]
tr]/td]
td]/td]
td]/td]
td]/td]
/tr]
/table]

That be a 1 row 3 column table.  Might have saved some time.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 10:28:33 AM by Ceric »
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Offline Adrock

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1840 on: November 18, 2011, 10:38:03 AM »
Who fucking cares about review scores? They don't make the game better or worse. Does anyone get their jollies from an agreeable review? That is silliness. You're arguing over someone else's view of something. You lose by default. Every time. This is such a colossal waste of time and I'm including my own post trying to explain why.

In any case, Skyward Sword is so close. I need to finish Mario by tomorrow night.

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1841 on: November 18, 2011, 11:15:05 AM »
Who fucking cares about review scores? They don't make the game better or worse. Does anyone get their jollies from an agreeable review? That is silliness. You're arguing over someone else's view of something. You lose by default. Every time. This is such a colossal waste of time and I'm including my own post trying to explain why.

In any case, Skyward Sword is so close. I need to finish Mario by tomorrow night.
A lot of people or there wouldn't be aggregate sites.  Scores are a way to make a quick decision about something.

In this case its a means of discussion in the lack of anything else to really discuss with the game so close.  People like to have things in quantifiable understandable terms.  Consumer Reports is a very good example of this.  While a review of all of this years cars would be more informative a rating lets me quickly eliminate the ones I'm not interested in.

You can't tell me that you haven't bought or done something because it got a good rating.  The power of the rating is so large that all shopping sites have one with the product.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1842 on: November 18, 2011, 11:55:15 AM »
Obviously, people care about review scores otherwise reviews wouldn't exist. The question was rhetorical. It makes no sense to judge something based on someone else's understanding of it. More to the point, I'm pushing the shenanigans broom on people complaining that some website's review score isn't high enough. What the hell is the purpose of that? So some stranger doesn't like a game as much as you think you will. Arguing the merits of a review or a score is ultimately pointless. If you disagree with a review, you've already made the decision that it doesn't matter. This is especially true of a game like Zelda. Most have already made the decision of whether to buy the game despite what reviews say. Do reviews justify that choice? They shouldn't. Why would you need validation for that? Does anyone like a game more/less because someone else did? That's silly.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 11:58:33 AM by Adrock »

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1843 on: November 18, 2011, 12:03:23 PM »
I personally think having scores is bad for reviews, but I understand that there's zero possibility of them going away. Not only will (stupid) people be upset by it, but publishers will hate you because it's a lot harder to market a text-only review than to slap a score on the back of a box. Scores are a crutch, but they're one that's not going away, so we're going to have to live with bullshit like this whining about scores.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1844 on: November 18, 2011, 12:20:54 PM »
I personally think having scores is bad for reviews, but I understand that there's zero possibility of them going away. Not only will (stupid) people be upset by it, but publishers will hate you because it's a lot harder to market a text-only review than to slap a score on the back of a box. Scores are a crutch, but they're one that's not going away, so we're going to have to live with bullshit like this whining about scores.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1845 on: November 18, 2011, 12:24:50 PM »
We can't all afford to give every game a chance so reviews are useful.  Scores are just easy to check.  When you're curious about a game, you can go to Game Rankings and get a rough idea.  If the average score is good then you'll probably check a few reviews and make your decision.  If the average score is really low you're probably safe to avoid it.  It's all for the benefit of being a smart consumer.  Games that unanimously get low scores are often total crap.  Plus sometimes a review is not written in such a way that is obvious that the reviewers likes it.  Too many "on the other hand" and "having said that".

A good endorsement for this game is that my brother played it on a demo kiosk at the mall and said that the motion control was really responsive.  He is as anti-motion control as I am and he was telling me "Ian, don't worry.  It controls really well."

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1846 on: November 18, 2011, 12:30:58 PM »
*shrug*
I mostly just read the review here and that I read in the talkback thread where you can't see the score anyways.

Though this Corban guy gave Super Mario 3D Land a 12 out of 10 I heard.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1847 on: November 18, 2011, 12:33:38 PM »
I will admit, though, that scores can be handy in certain, limited ways. If I'm reading reviews I base my decisions on the text, not the scores, but the scores present a simple way to pick reviews to read with differing opinions.




Though this Corban guy gave Super Mario 3D Land a 12 out of 10 I heard.


And I stand by that review 120%.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1848 on: November 18, 2011, 03:19:04 PM »
So Amazon delivered 2 delights this morning in the form of Skyward Sword and 3D Land, the latter of which I haven't even touched yet because I've been so involved with Skyward Sword. I've played around 4/5 hours of it at this point and have formed a few opinions of the early game.


First of all, the start of the game is still relatively slow. Its nowhere near as painstaking as Twilight Princess' opening but doesn't have the instant jump straight in there Ocarina of Time feel. However, I understand that a big part of why it felt slower was to do with the background story, and introducing interesting characters around Skyloft. You'll be able to enter your first area within an hour or so, meaning that you have to get to grips with the sword play from a pretty early stage.


Overall I'm pleased with the motion control, and have started to better understand how everything works after these first few hours. As multiple people have said, you cannot waggle your way to victory in this game. You may get away with killing a few enemies by doing that at the start, but soon you realise that you have no hope if you stick to that method. A significant detail about the controls which I picked up on a couple of hours into the game, is that the sword swings are much more effective if you slow it down and make larger gestures.  I had previously been flicking my wrist in the appointed direction, but using a full swing will give you much better results.


The first temple is relatively short, if you consider it a stand alone area. However, if you consider the woods preceding it and the various things you have to do there as part of the temple then it turns out to be a pretty meaty affair. The transition between overworld and dungeon is much more blurred than in previous games, though you still clearly know when you are going from one to the other. The puzzles were nothing too special, but as it is the first dungeon I'll cut it some slack, though I do expect later areas to be more demanding.


Another thing - it is easy to die in this game if you aren't paying attention/don't know what to do. Timing is absolutely key and if you screw it up even a tiny bit then you are brutally punished. At one point I was trying to take out a swinging spider by spin attacking to expose its belly then attempting to stab it in the jewel. But because my timing was off and I couldn't get a feel for it I ended up losing 5 hearts to this one enemy without even killing it, as the momentum created by my sword meant that the spider kept knocking back into me.


Ghirahim was also a tough first boss, perhaps the hardest first boss in any Zelda game. I died on him twice, and this was down to a couple of things. The main problem was his first form, in which he attempts to block your attacks using his fingers. The issue with this is that his "tell" for the direction that you are supposed to strike is very unclear. I found myself thinking that I had it but then realising that it was something completely different. You won't have issues dying on this phase as its relatively easy to break free of his grip. Its the second stage that gave me problems, mainly because I didn't know how to avoid his charge attack. I kept trying to run away, whereas you are actually meant to counteract him with your own sword. This lead to quite a bit of frustration, but I did manage to pull through in the end.


So far the game is very enjoyable and has been much more challenging than the opening of any other Zelda game that I have played. I'll keep checking back in with my thoughts as I get deeper into it :D

Offline Caterkiller

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Re: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
« Reply #1849 on: November 19, 2011, 10:28:32 AM »
This video is great. I believe it's gamespots video review for roughly half a minute talking about how bad the controls are. Then this guy is playing as perfect as possible. I say just listen, don't look at the video until the man stops talking. It's pretty fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uqOQ7LXfYjg#t=26s

Here is the link at 26 seconds. Just watch from there, no spoilers at all but a lizalfo. The beginning bad mouths the controls while this guy basically shuts him up.
Nintendo players and One Piece readers, just better people.

RomanceDawn