Topic: No FF13 in 2009 for the west

[GoldenPhoenix]

Actually Ian hit the point on the head Bill--if this was about Zelda the thread would have been closed right at the back.  And I wasn't talking about any WII Zelda since there's no news at all but I was referring to all Zelda past games since they were always delayed but nobody cares once the game's out (well all nintendo made zelda games--flagship managed to ship their games an time). 

Delaying games doesn't matter much as long as the reason is good--I looking at you Too Human . 

And stated WII 3rd party games suck in general isn't really trolling IMO since there's tons of articles on the topic about 80% of WII games are scoring below average.  It's kinda funny because up to last generation--nintendo always had quality over quantity and now it's the other way around.  Not saying there isn't solid 3rd party games but they're in the minority now. 


 

Funny. I didn't think Nintendo had anything to do with the 3rd party titles beyond allowing them to be released. Obviously someone has forgotten the PS2 and PS One libraries which were jam packed with garbage with probably sub-20 or 10% being good. Not to mention the fact in regards to Zelda, Nintendo has PROVEN time and time again that delays usually mean more than development hell (usually it means flipping over tea tables). With Square this is odd even for them, and with it moving to 360 there are signs they may have to retool it somehow, unless they were lieing about it only being possible on PS3.

Also yes, Ian can be trollish because all he has to contribute is constant whining about the sky is falling. It is fine to be critical but when 99% of your posts are complaining it turns into trolling.

Also for fun:

Do you want me to make new threads about all the games that won't make 2009 for the WII?  *cough* Zelda *cough*

And I wasn't talking about any WII Zelda

Riiggght.

[GoldenPhoenix]

I personally have absolutely no issue with games that have large cut scenes.  I love the relaxation it gives me.  It's like video game meditation.

Compare that to a game like Dead Space, which I just finished.  I feel like it took about 10 years off my life from stress.

So yeah, I think I will always love Final Fantasy games.

GP did you play FF 7 when it was brand new or later on?  I was just freaking awestruck at the time by the visual style.... Recently, I started it again and decided I wanted to hold out for a possible remake because the visuals looked so dated.

I played it shortly after it came out at a friends house. Like I said the painted portrait dungeons were terrible to navigate which made the random battles even worse then before. The only FF game I have not played (well besides a couple of the unreleased ones) is FF9 though that one I may actually like since it seemed to go back to its roots. I think moving towards a more realistic art style ruined some of the magic for me in the series. Tales of Vesparia is an example of a game with gorgeous visuals but without the realistic characters.

[Deguello]

Ian isn't a troll.  Trolls don't maintain a constant presence in a forum for over five years.  Ian is a Nintendo fan with strong opinions.  He has just as much right to discuss them as anyone here.

Except when the topic HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WII, ITS FAN, OR ITS GAMES. Seriously, Pale.  He just brought it up out of nowhere, for no reason.  It has zero relevance.  That's trolling, period.  I'm not going to argue this anymore.  You can stand there like a referee and force equivalence if you want, but there isn't any.  This thread was about FFXIII until Ian burst in here with his boring, tired rhetoric.  This is a FACT.  Period.

Arguably, I don't think the FF 13 delay is that much farther outside of Square Enix's norm relative, so I do think everyone is overreacting here.

That's just not true.  Square Enix released a mega-load of games last generation.   Several each year.  And they all sold more and cost less to make.  By this time (3 years into the gen), S-E had released FFX, FFX-2, Kingdom Hearts, and possibly FFXI, and several GBA games.  None of the games they've released this generation have even sold as much as Kingdom Hearts, nor have they all sold as well COMBINED, yet they cost significantly more.  They are having serious problems there, and it's very apparent.

[Bill Aurion]

In the context of Ian's post, his reference to the Wii library isn't that big of a deal and shouldn't have been made one.

Yes it should, because the topic has absolutely nothing to do with the Wii game library, nor about game quality in general...It's a complete non sequitur...

Actually Ian hit the point on the head Bill--if this was about Zelda the thread would have been closed right at the back.

No it wouldn't...The already-full-of-whining Zelda thread in Console Discussion is proof of that...

Delaying games doesn't matter much as long as the reason is good--I looking at you Too Human .

Look, the issue isn't about bloody game quality...If Final Fantasy fans enjoy their Final Fantasy games, then great, whatever...They can enjoy their what-will-likely-be polished game...But delaying such a big-budget project for so long isn't good for a company with already-dropping revenue...There IS a limit to how much you can delay a product, especially when you have been showing off the same footage for YEARS...Not only is it bad for the company, it annoys the fans for dragging them along by a string and it annoys their fans of their other works, who just want them to get the damn thing over with so they can stick those resources into other pies/franchises...

[Pale]

It was relevant to what he was trying to say because he was discussing the possibility that Nintendo fans were looking on these events more harshly because the game is not on Nintendo's hardware.

He was enforcing this thought by pointing out that he felt the Wii's third party support was lacking.

We should drop this.  In my humble opinion Deg and Bill look like the trolls here because they are the ones that made this entire discussion so hostile in the first place.  I'm playing referee because that's my job, and you all were too harsh as you assailed Ian.  I still think his point was perfectly fine in this context.

BESIDES ALL OF THAT, it was a minor part of his entire post, and using that to debase his entire point is also ridiculous.


So to go back to the very beginning.  I have no problem with you all trying to show the opposite side of the argument Ian was trying to make.  That's what debating is for.  My problem is the hostile way in which you did it.  What value does Ian have in coming back to this thread if he is just going to be attacked like that.  You ended the argument by your hostility, not because of your points.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Really I do not want to see S-E go bankrupt, so I think it is at least a minimal concern that FF13 may not be good for them in the long run if it keeps getting pushed back (we'll see if it makes it out in Japan in 2009). All I know is that they've shown hardly anything of the game and what they have shown is pretty much the same footage. Beyond that we have tidbits here and there, some contradicting like it only being possible on PS3, but now it is coming to 360. Combine that with the fact it will be releasing first (supposedly) on a system that is struggling big time everywhere is cause for concern.

In regards to the thread turning nasty. Ymeegod was a pretty big contributor with his response to Pro's sarcastic (though not really vicious post) calling it flamebait along making a "threat" of posting threads on Wii games that won't make 2009. Not to mention his little "clever" attack on me when I wasn't even getting nasty with him (I was being more sarcastic with the game).

[Pale]

I don't necessarily think SE is anywhere close to bankrupt so I really don't think there is much to worry about.

As many have said, they very possibly did stretch themselves too thin trying to make 3 FF13 related games.  But they have obviously made some significant progress on DQ9 and have at least began DQ10.

Just step back and look at all those cash cows up there.  As long as they still release a quality product, they will be rolling in it when they do come out.  The only risk right now is not how long it's been delayed, but whether or not the game is successful.

And I'll bet on their track record for successful games personally.

[Pale]

Oh and as an aside, isn't Dissidia tearing up the charts in Japan right now?  Also the DQ remakes on DS are selling really well.  Crisis Core sold like crazy.

They don't have any big sellers on home consoles, but those up there have to keep them out of bankruptcy threat at least a little bit, don't they?

[Bill Aurion]

It was relevant to what he was trying to say because he was discussing the possibility that Nintendo fans were looking on these events more harshly because the game is not on Nintendo's hardware.

Oh awesome, so from now on I can just claim everyone that disagrees with me is a fanboy that can't possibly have any other reason to have that opinion...Thanks for clearing that one up, Pale...

BESIDES ALL OF THAT, it was a minor part of his entire post, and using that to debase his entire point is also ridiculous.

Except his entire point was that we are fanboys that are only "attacking" the game (somehow talking about FACTS about the business decisions surrounding the game is attacking now) because it's not on a Nintendo console...It's a non-argument, Pale...

I don't necessarily think SE is anywhere close to bankrupt so I really don't think there is much to worry about.

No one said they were...yet...They just need to watch themselves with the managing problem they've had since FFXII...

[GoldenPhoenix]

I don't necessarily think SE is anywhere close to bankrupt so I really don't think there is much to worry about.

As many have said, they very possibly did stretch themselves too thin trying to make 3 FF13 related games.  But they have obviously made some significant progress on DQ9 and have at least began DQ10.

Just step back and look at all those cash cows up there.  As long as they still release a quality product, they will be rolling in it when they do come out.  The only risk right now is not how long it's been delayed, but whether or not the game is successful.

And I'll bet on their track record for successful games personally.

We'll see, if you recall GTAIV failed to meet expectations. The more bloated your budget gets the tougher it is to make back your costs in marketing and development. Also I wouldn't say they are bankrupt proof in this kind of climate! Look at all the companies that have went under who were making HD games. You can't have too many mistakes without it hurting big time. At the very least Square may need downsizing which wouldn't be good either.

The only company I'd say is pretty safe is Nintendo for obvious reasons and even then I wouldn't say it is a definite fact!

[Stogi]

People still play these games?

Color me impressed.

[Pale]

To Bill:

Somehow we are still discussing why you think Ian is wrong instead of owning up to you both being extremely immature in your hostile attacks towards him.

Again, that was my only point.

[Ymeegod]

Again this is why I am comparing this to Zelda Bill.  As others have stated, Zelda TP was delayed for 2+ years so why would you make such a big deal about Square doing the same?  Actually if you want to be fair FFXIII was stated for a 2008 launch in Japan and now it's only pushed back one year (it's still coming 2009 in Japan).

And Square's still making tons of money with remakes (in fact their profits are actually up with most thanks to DQ and FF) so why wouldn't delay FF for polishing?  Would Nintendo release a crappy Zelda or Mario game?  No, because they know it's their signature franchises.  Would you rather play a rushed game or a polished one?

[GoldenPhoenix]

Again this is why I am comparing this to Zelda Bill.  As others have stated, Zelda TP was delayed for 2+ years so why would you make such a big deal about Square doing the same?  Actually if you want to be fair FFXIII was stated for a 2008 launch in Japan and now it's only pushed back one year (it's still coming 2009 in Japan).

And Square's still making tons of money with remakes (in fact their profits are actually up with most thanks to DQ and FF) so why wouldn't delay FF for polishing?  Would Nintendo release a crappy Zelda or Mario game?  No, because they know it's their signature franchises.  Would you rather play a rushed game or a polished one?

Zelda; TP was delayed a year to input motion controls. We KNEW what was going on there and there was a running build of the game that the public had seen. FF13 is still vapor ware as far as being in the public eye, it has had a couple of fancy movie trailers but that is it. It is a terrible comparison with Zelda which we pretty much knew the status of and where they were at.

[Ymeegod]

" All I know is that they've shown hardly anything of the game and what they have shown is pretty much the same footage. "

LoL.  You can say that about any Nintendo game too.  Some developers tend to keep the lid shut so other developers don't steal their ideas before it launches. 

[Deguello]

It was relevant to what he was trying to say because he was discussing the possibility that Nintendo fans were looking on these events more harshly because the game is not on Nintendo's hardware.

And what does that have to do with FFXIII again?

He was enforcing this thought by pointing out that he felt the Wii's third party support was lacking.

This has what to do with FFXIII again?

We should drop this.  In my humble opinion Deg and Bill look like the trolls here because they are the ones that made this entire discussion so hostile in the first place.  I'm playing referee because that's my job, and you all were to harsh as you assailed Ian.  I still think his point was perfectly fine in this context.

Whatever dude.  This was about FFXIII, how retarded it is to delay it a million times, promise it to the last place console, and if this game is really going to be all that worth the FOUR YEAR wait.  The other side of that debate is "It isn't retarded to promise it tot he PS3, the game needs the delays to be good, and it will be worth it."  Not speculation on Nintendo fan reaction if the game were hypothetically on Wii or the Wii's third party line up, or Nintendo fans in general.  That's a non sequitir.

So to go back to the very beginning.  I have no problem with you all trying to show the opposite side of the argument Ian was trying to make.  That's what debating is for.  My problem is the hostile way in which you did it.  What value does Ian have in coming back to this thread if he is just going to be attacked like that.  You ended the argument by your hostility, not because of your points.

Excuse me, but he engendered the hostility by creating this Nintendo Fanboy Strawman argument about "some people" who might be more harsh on the game because it's on the PS3, regardless of the actual topic.  He started it, and it was ended for him on solid points.  And this isn't really a "debate." It WAS a debate about FFXIII until Ian came in here swinging trash bags about Nintendo fans and Wii Owners and screwed it all up.

But yeah, sure.  Bygones and all that.

[GoldenPhoenix]

" All I know is that they've shown hardly anything of the game and what they have shown is pretty much the same footage. "

LoL.  You can say that about any Nintendo game too.  Some developers tend to keep the lid shut so other developers don't steal their ideas before it launches. 

Not for 3 years. Like I said with TP there was already a working playable build before it was ported to the Wii. Heck Nintendo Power had monthly features on the game. Nintendo after they announce games are usually pretty consistent about releasing new information consistently and not rehashing the same trailer. Please correct me if I'm mistaken but I cannot recall one big Nintendo title that was announced in which there were not consistent updates with new information every several months. Even going back to Mario 64 and OOT they still kept us updated on the progress with tidbits of information along with new things like screen shots or even trailers.

One big example I can think of, of a game that was delayed but we still were kept in the loop was SSB:B. It never seemed like it was struggling development wise but was obviously directed towards improving the game (as shown by the continuous updates). I kind of put FF13 in a similar category with the vapor ware Crystal Chronicles game with Wii. We've seen very little of the game and it has been years. And you can't help but wonder what happened to it. Heck I wonder that with ANY game where it goes years with hardly a peep but instead we are given recycled footage with minimal "new".

[Bill Aurion]

Somehow we are still discussing why you think Ian is wrong instead of owning up to you both being extremely immature in your hostile attacks towards him.

Haha, immature...Cute...

Okay Mommy, I'll be good now! 

Again this is why I am comparing this to Zelda Bill.  As others have stated, Zelda TP was delayed for 2+ years so why would you make such a big deal about Square doing the same?

1)  I have never said anything of the sort saying Zelda being delayed was a good business decision...
2)  The budget for any Zelda game is considerably less than FFXIII's...
3)  Nintendo makes far more money than Squenix...

It's certainly more of an issue to consider in Squenix's case than Ninty's...

And Square's still making tons of money with remakes (in fact their profits are actually up with most thanks to DQ and FF) so why wouldn't delay FF for polishing?

No, no, no, no, you aren't looking at this in the business-line of things...The idea of using money from other projects to fund other projects is incredibly flawed...A GOOD business wants to make money on ALL their projects...

[Ymeegod]

Zelda was shown at E3 2004 with a release date stated for within a year (e3 takes place in may).  It wasn't relased untill Oct 2006 in Japan and Nov in the states.

So yeah two years delay--again not really uncommon in video games. 

And just because it doesn't meet their expectations doesn't mean it doesn't make a profit .  There's a fine difference.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Zelda was shown at E3 2004 with a release date stated for within a year (e3 takes place in may).  It wasn't relased untill Oct 2006 in Japan and Nov in the states.

So yeah two years delay--again not really uncommon in video games. 

And just because it doesn't meet their expectations doesn't mean it doesn't make a profit .  There's a fine difference.

Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. GTAIV not meeting expectations may not necessarily have meant it wasn't profitable but it still didn't help them like they needed it to because of the hole they dug for themselves elsewhere. It is really too bad it is so hard to find gaming budgets, I'd love to do a cost/benefit analysis of many of these big budget HD games.

[Ymeegod]

And I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about GoldenPhoenix?  There's tons of new screens with FFXIII?  Are you looking just for trailers?  There's a great big article in my GI talking about new characters and such.  Hell there's even actually screenshots of actaully gameplay too.  You can go to http://www.the-magicbox.com for updates.

Again Deguello you're mistaken when you talk about FFXIII being delayed for "years" because as I keep pointing out so far it's only been a year (of course that can always change and get delayed again but who knows).

[GoldenPhoenix]

And I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about GoldenPhoenix?  There's tons of new screens with FFXIII?  Are you looking just for trailers?  There's a great big article in my GI talking about new characters and such.  Hell there's even actually screenshots of actaully gameplay too.  You can go to http://www.the-magicbox.com for updates.

Again Deguello you're mistaken when you talk about FFXIII being delayed for "years" because as I keep pointing out so far it's only been a year (of course that can always change and get delayed again but who knows).

I think someone needs to quit being so hostile. Oh wow, new characters! And some screens. AMAZING, I take everything I said back. That is definitely normal for a game that was announced three years ago. Seriously though maybe you could get get some constructive debates if you quit being so angry and nasty calling people names.

[Ymeegod]

"Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. "

Do you just make this stuff up?  It's quarter's up and the only time it's shares dropped when Take-two shot down EA's bid.  Taketwo isn't hurting for greensbacks I can assure you.

[Bill Aurion]

"Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. "

Do you just make this stuff up?  It's quarter's up and the only time it's shares dropped when Take-two shot down EA's bid.  Taketwo isn't hurting for greensbacks I can assure you.

Fiscal 2008 -  $97.1 million or $1.28 per share
Fiscal 2007 - LOSS of $138.4 million or $1.93 per share

GP's statement on GTAIV not helping as much as Take Two would have liked stands...

[GoldenPhoenix]

"Except for the fact take-two is struggling now. "

Do you just make this stuff up?  It's quarter's up and the only time it's shares dropped when Take-two shot down EA's bid.  Taketwo isn't hurting for greensbacks I can assure you.

Fiscal 2008 -  $97.1 million or $1.28 per share
Fiscal 2007 - LOSS of $138.4 million or $1.93 per share

GP's statement on GTAIV not helping as much as Take Two would have liked stands...

Let me clarify, maybe it isn't a hole but it is below what they expected. It is pretty scary that a game like GTA which sold MILLIONS is still below expectations.