Topic: Where are the cell-shading naysayers?

[mouse_clicker]

"Now why throw in a personal attack?"

It was a JOKE. I saw how you conviniently omittied from your quote the smiley face that was present in my original post. I meant that comment to be lighthearted and humorous. I didn't intend it to be an attack (although I do think you have to really pay attention and be patient to enjoy the game- not saying theavenge is that way personally, though, aside from his qualms with the scanning in MP).

I can understand misunderstanding some of my posts, but generally when someone puts a smiley face next to a comment, it's not meant to be insulting.

And it's not that he doesn't like the style- he said himself he liked OoT, and WW is almost exactly like it.


"In contrast, I spent all last afternoon/evening wandering aimlessly around Wind Waker's Windfall Island and looking for fairy islands to upgrade my heart pieces/bottles. It was interesting... I guess. Okay, not really. It was too slow-paced for my tastes."

You know you don't HAVE to do any of that. Quite literally all of the upgrades and heart pieces I found I came across naturally, not going out and searching for them. I only had 11 hearts total at the end of the game. You seem to have a habit of doing unneccessary things and then complaining about them.

"So you see I DO enjoy exploration-type games, but the exploration has to serve a valuable purpouse... not just collecting 50 rupees"

I swear to god you did NOT play Wind Waker. Can anyone who beat the game tell me WHEN you were forced to collect 50 rupees? Hell, you could get 50 rupees easily from the enemies you find along the way- I must've collected thousands of rupees through the game without consciously doing so. There's only a few items you have to buy in the game and none are priced so that you have to spend much time at all getting rupees, if any time AT all. Did you think that since you wanted a specific item you couldn't afford you HAD to collect rupees and that it's the games fault? There's things called sidequests, man, that you don't need to do. The only time I could plausibly see someone with the impression they were needlessly searching for something was when getting the Trifoce charts, but that's IT. At no other time was I not under the impression that what I was searching for wasn't valuable.

[VideoGamerX]

POSSIBLE SPOILER

I would just like to add that I wouldn't consider Ocarina of Time the beginning of the story. It's the beginning of a story, but is certainly no where near the start of the Legend of Zelda. It's only a few hundred years before Wind Waker. If you timeline these (which you most certainly can now given Wind Waker's introduction), A Link to the Past can be considered nearly ancient. You could also bear in mind that parts of OoT are somewhat reliant upon A Link to the Past for story elements.

Of course, in both stories, the elders know this hero is coming and will fulfill a prophecy.

[mouse_clicker]

VideogamerX: Yeah, theavenge got that right. Wind Waker is tied very closely to Ocarina of Time and one could say it's the end of that little substory of the Zelda universe. Yes the Link in WW is different than the one in OoT, but WW's story is more a very large extension of OoT's than, say, a whole new game and story entirely. While other Zelda games are lossely connected to games in the series, WW was very closely connected with OoT and in essence OoT's story was the beginning of WW's story. I think what theavenge meant was that he enjoyed playing the whole backstory to Wind Waker (the story explained in the opening) rather than Wind Waker itself.

[VideoGamerX]

Heh, sorry about that but I really didn't like my whole post so I changed it (deleted the other). I understand that point, but I still think it's worth noting that Wind Waker basically does the same thing over again whether OoT is the backstory or not. The only thing never done in OoT is the mention of what created that legend.

Oh well, I still love a Link to the Past so much more. I can't begin to stop finding new reasons to hate OoT. I liked it better when it was just the goddesses who left the Triforce to the Hylians rather than Din, Farore, and Doohicky's skanky butts. And why on god's green earth have they made the fairies into banshees? I've always thought they were god awful ugly in OoT and now they're even worse. I feel like I'm playing a Hindu-religious game. I don't think even the Shinto's have creatures that look like these fairies do. Why did Nintendo sway from the beautiful fairies that looked halfway sexy? All of the fairies used to look like attractive females, now I feel like I have Kid Icarus in a bottle and Cali or Shiva (sp...) staring me in the face at these fairy springs. Nintendo sure likes to push the envelope on religious politics. They seem to border on political incorrectness for no reason (and I mean this in reference to their dungeon chants in OoT that eventually were edited).

Also, if you remember, the original Zelda had a dungeon in the shape of the Nazi's symbol (which I can't recall how to spell it and don't want to look it up). That's the thing I'm talking about. Not neccesarily a religious reference as this has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with cultural exposure and a disappointment with the look of the fairies.

[mouse_clicker]

Eh, I'm flexible- sure the Fairies looked word in OoT and WW, but I loved both games. I loved A Link to the Past as well, but I think I enjoyed OoT, MM, and WW all more, albeit a little. I just felt more immersed in those games than in LttP.

[VideoGamerX]

I also agree, mouse_clicker. OoT has a lot of world depth and wow factor. However, it lacked the soul that LttP had. It never really seemed to capture Hyrule's feel. It totally got kicked around in terms of sound track compared to LttP's. I guess I expected a different game. It had very little feel for what Hyrule was, lacked the music to go along with it, and really just introduced a bunch of crap that I don't agree with. That's my personal feel for it.

As for the dungeons, I feel like the only person who finds them very pointless, lacking any good clues, and really are just a scattered mess of rooms and headaches. They seem repetitive to gamers because every one of them is self-explanatory to those who know how to complete them. It's like this, I just had just gotten the hookshot and the answer to getting into the forest temple is to use it. I then use it and the bow I get from the place to beat it. There are no clues that this is what I'm supposed to use. It's dungeon-implied. For me, the dungeons in OoT are the biggest disappointment of all thus far. They could not have done a worse job making these dungeons feel like uninhabited natural occurences of nature. Not to sound unreasonable, but I feel like a hole in the ground with some moss, vines, and monsters that just happen to be there does not constitute a dungeon of evil. Every other Zelda did a good job with underworld dungeons, but OoT felt like it strived too hard to be apart of its environment.

I'll stop giving OoT a hard time. I still like the game (would even save love), but it's not better than some of the others. There are plenty of things I would have rather had out of it. A really nice sound track would have helped a lot.

[Rellik]

I like the fairies in Wind Waker a lot more than in Ocarina of Time, or most of the other games.

They're kind-of simple looking... but the simpler they are, the more benevolent they seem.  They just seem like these kind, gentle spirits who help people... you know, nothing fancy, they're just there, unassuming.

[theaveng]

Quote
Originally posted by: VideoGamerX
POSSIBLE SPOILER
I would just like to add that I wouldn't consider Ocarina of Time the beginning of the story. It's the beginning of a story, but is certainly no where near the start of the Legend of Zelda.

 Then why did the Creator of Zelda say, "Ocarina's Link is the first Link"?  How do you ignore the creator's own statement?  Do you think he's a dumbass and doesn't know anything about his own game?

Sorry if the above questions offend you, but I don't comprehend how you can ignore the creator's statement like it never happened.  He clearly said Ocarina was first.  Even the story supports that.  Ganandorf was a human being, recently born.  This was the very first time he had ever attacked Hyrule.

I've heard people say this is the proper order (ignoring sidequests):
Ocarina -----> Wind Waker -----> A Link to the Past -----> The Legend of Zelda
Makes sense to me.
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BACK TO WIND WAKER:
You guys love the mini-games, but I find them booooring.  Why would I want to take a picture of some woman, hand it to some man, then wait a day, and go find the pair on a date... all just to get a lousy 1/4 heart.  Not only are these mini-games *not* fun... they aren't even challenging.  I'd rather load up MAME and play a little Pac-Man or Asteroids or dozens of other arcade classics.  Or maybe some Mario or Pitfall action on the ancient Atari/Nintendo.  Those are fun "mini" games... the mini-games in modern epics are not.

That said, I would have preferred more dungeons.  Here's a rough breakdown:
OOT WW
-3- -3- Gemstone Dungeons
-5- -2- Sage Dungeons
=============
-8- -5- TOTAL
Rather disappointing for me.

And then there's the bosses.  Every Ocarina boss killed me at least once.  NONE of the Wind Waker bosses killed me.  The Wind Waker bosses should be renamed "wimps".  hahahahaha! ;-)

Oh well.  My copy of Wind Waker's on ebay now.  It was worth playing once, but not over-and-over.  Not like Ocarina of Time.

Troy (Sidles off)

[VideoGamerX]

I'd ask for a source for that, but I won't expect it because it's really hard to find these quotes (I understand).

Maybe Ocarina's Link is supposed to be the first Link, but that's not logical. There's too much development and technology in their worlds. Wind Waker has cannons. A Link to the Past has nothing like that. Their world seems simple with people who manage to recall the ancients. OoT acts like they can barely recall anything of magic, the royal family has the Triforce, the Master Sword is in their backyard (temple). In a Link to the Past they recall a time when a hero used the Master Sword but they have long since forgotten where it is (it's not in Hyrule Castle's backyard). The people in A Link to the Past know the Triforce exists but it's in another dimension and people go in search of it (the royal family knows it's sealed away in the other world and the direct descendents of the sage's who sealed that world are still living).

That's seriously flawed. There are fortune tellers and witches in LttP, not scientists and alchemists. There are presumably no horses in LttP, but that is the case in OoT... horses, saddles, and probably chariots, too. Far more magic in LttP, far less in OoT.

It doesn't matter than Ganon is human at the start, that he was just born. Maybe Ganon is every Gerudu male that is born. Every time a Gerudu male is born (which only happens once every hundred years or so), maybe this is evil incarnate.

Whatever the case, I seize to care. There is no way Ocarina's Link was the "first Link." Maybe Miyamoto meant it in reference to Wind Waker and not the franchise as a whole. I've never heard of him making reference to any connection between the Zelda's unless it was way back when LttP was released. They might have caught him saying that the Zelda's for NES were later than LttP. I assume this is the case now until I see a source.

As for Wind Waker bosses being wimps, I don't know if you've noticed but they're no different than the OoT bosses. The difference is that you don't take as much damage. I finally found something that's a tough fight. Have you seen that big black pig on Outset Island? Go get into the pin with it and start slashing it. It'll kill you in about 3 hits if you're not quick getting out of there. It takes roughly 3 hearts away with each hit.  

[theaveng]

[theaveng]

[theaveng]

Quote
Originally posted by: VideoGamerX
Maybe Ocarina's Link is supposed to be the first Link, but that's not logical. There's too much development and technology in their worlds. Wind Waker has cannons. A Link to the Past has nothing like that. Their world seems simple with people who manage to recall the ancients.

Why do you assume that societies always progress?  It's entirely possible, with Ganandorf's constant attacks, for Hyrule to slide backwards.  Look at what his last attack did!  Created a flooded world and a near-lawless society with no central control.  Using a historical reference:
Ocarina of Time = Roman Empire (~200 A.D.) with highly advanced civilization
Link to the Past = The Dark Ages (~1000 A.D.) with decayed, superstitutious civilization

re: BOSSES.
The bosses in Ocarina didn't just inflict more damage.  They were also a lot harder to hit.  Phantom Ganandorf is a major pain in the ass to kill.  Ditto the Twinrova witches.  Those Ocarina bosses required a LOT of skill to hit.  Not so with the Wind Waker bosses.

Troy

[mouse_clicker]

Theavenge has got the timeline pretty much down, and he raises an interesting point about lack of progression. If anyone's studied about the burning of the Library of Alexandria, you know lack of progression or actual regression is very possibly. The Library of Alexandria basically had a copy of every written piece of work up to that point 2,000 years ago, I believe (in fact, one scientist had created a working diagram of a steam engine long before it was actually made). When Julius Caeser burned the library down, it set back human advancement VERY far. Many scholars think that by Columbus's time there could have ben space travel.

Anyway, I think the accepted timeline of most people of the main Zelda games is this:

OoT --> WW --> LttP --> LoZ

MM was a gaiden to OoT and split off into a different timeline itself (when Link was returned to his child form, his world existed without Ganon/Ganondorf while the world he left did). Link's Awakening is a gaiden to LttP and Adventures of Link is a gaiden to LoZ. I'm not quite sure where the Oracle's fit in.

"the bosses in Ocarina didn't just inflict more damage. They were also a lot harder to hit. Phantom Ganandorf is a major pain in the ass to kill. Ditto the Twinrova witches. Those Ocarina bosses required a LOT of skill to hit. Not so with the Wind Waker bosses."

While I agree that OoT's bosses were harder (although I think MM's were much more difficult themselves), I wouldn't say they were that hard, either. The only boss I actually had any trouble with was the first time I fought Morhpa without the Biggoron's Sword. I think the bosses were better designed in OoT, though, and especially MM, although the last bosses of WW are some of the best.

[theaveng]

Gaiden?  Translation please.  :-)

Also, which of the "last bosses of WW" are you referring to?  The last two bosses I fought were a Giant Poe and a Sandworm.  I beat both *easily*... wasn't even challenge.  At this point in Ocarina, the bosses (Twinrova and those insanely strong knight things) were killing me over-and-over.  And no, I wasn't younger than.  It was only 3 months ago.  ;-)
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MORE WIND WAKER BOREDOM

I just reached the "sail the world and search for triforce maps" section. My God! This is like torture!!! Wasting days on end, sailing on a boring sea, and searching every-nook-and-cranny is horrible.  This tedious triforce task is worse than my job. There's no fun here.

As for buying Wind Waker's triforce map translations, I think it's ridiculous. I'm going around and cutting stupid grass just to find rupees. Collecting these rupees is about as pointless as collecting the notes in Banjo-Kazooie... except of course, Banjo-Kazooie was a lot more fun than cutting grass.

Troy  

[Koopa Troopa]

Quote
As for buying Wind Waker's triforce map translations, I think it's ridiculous. I'm going around and cutting stupid grass just to find rupees. Collecting these rupees is about as pointless as collecting the notes in Banjo-Kazooie... except of course, Banjo-Kazooie was a lot more fun than cutting grass.

POSSIBLE-SEMI-SPOILER*****

There is alot of money to be made in the place where you obtain Outset Island's Triforce chart, I haven't calculated how much yet, but it was fairly significant. I'm nearly 100% sure you can go back as many times as you like.  

[The King of red Lions]

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I just reached the "sail the world and search for triforce maps" section. My God! This is like torture!!! Wasting days on end, sailing on a boring sea, and searching every-nook-and-cranny is horrible. This tedious triforce task is worse than my job. There's no fun here.

--I don't understand because you should have a map that tells you exactly where to get the triforce charts
--Sailing doesn't take as long because you can warp around at will, I guess you've probably already found it, but it doesn't sound like it to me.
--If sailing is boring go to the glowing rings and dredge up some treasure chests. It will help your rupee situation as well.  You could also dredge up some major treasure from treasure maps if you have them.
--You also have 2 more dungeons to plow through, so you don't even have to be searching for the triforce of courage right now, if you didn't already know that.

[theaveng]

[theaveng]

[theaveng]

[theaveng]

[theaveng]

(deep breath)  You have to FIND the triforce maps first.  THAT'S the tedious part.  It took me two days (yesterday and today) to visit every island and dig out the maps.

Troy

[theaveng]

The following message would have been posted in the "Minigames are boring" topic, but bloodworth closed it.  So, I'm putting it here.

Quote
meanwhile stupid things like finding a girl with a loud voice in order to wake a sleeping fat man who's blocking your way is mandatory in RPG's.

Final Fantasy 7 right?  I remember that... I was totally and completely stuck and NOT having any fun.  Finally I just pulled out gamefaqs.com and read the solution... which turned out to be totally *not* obvious.

I think that's where my hatred of minigames began (yes, it's a minigame... a puzzle basically).  First, why on earth is there such a dumb puzzle in the middle of an RPG?  I play RPGs for battles and exploration, not stupid puzzles.  Second, most minigames are completely and totally lame.  The purpose of games is to have fun, and a lame minigame kills the fun.

Now, there are SOME good minigames.  Like the 20 minute "go water the trees" minigame in Zelda: Wind Waker.  It was a challenge to meet the time limit and filled me with lots of andrenaline = fun.  I also liked the 50 level dungeon on Outset Island.  Same reasons.  But that's only 2 good minigames out of ~100 minigames.  Rather lame IMHO  

I'd prefer that the developers leave the minigames out of the main epic (or else make them 100% optional), so we gamers are not forced to play lame, not-fun crap.  Zelda: Wind Waker has a lot of optional minigames, but there are also a lot of minigames that are not optional... like the lame Triforce Map search.

Troy  

[VideoGamerX]

To this day, I still think Super Mario Brothers 3 on the NES is one of the best games ever. 8 worlds and umpteen levels of platforming without a save option. Detailed worlds on an NES cart with tons of powerups and items. Will it ever get better than that?

And the mini games were something to be desired. Create the correct picture, flip over the right cards, pick a chest, and my favorite was always the hidden airship full of coins that you could cause to show up every now and then.

[Rellik]

Theaveng, once again it seems like you're a very different kind of gamer from me and those like me.  You play RPG's for Battles and Exploration?  I play for Puzzles and Plot... the other two things are good too, but I normally run away once I get to high enough levels that I don't need any more, and as for exploration, I'd rather do that in a game like Zelda, but I guess it's ok in an RPG too.  But I thought you said you didn't like exploration?

Anyway, I HATE THAT FOREST WATER SIDEQUEST.  It's just... not... fun.  Run around aimlessly, not allowed to take any extra time to do something fun, nooo, you have to sail around trying to find the stupid koroks within 20 minutes... I tried it once, found that I felt making a sidestop on an island (this was key island I think) to do something fun was a way better thing to do than continue with the sidequest, and just waited until the forest water turned back and poured it out.

I like the Triumph Forks map hunt.  It's nice to have something to be looking for when you would just be sailing around to all these islands anyway...

I think that battle-ship game was kinda boring.  Maybe if it had been something thought-provoking, like Minesweeper.... well, I think that the "shoot the fish" was a good diversion.  As was the mail-sorting minigame, although hard (it would have been more fun if they had assigned each box to a button instead of having to use the analog stick to control which box).  And I guess the Orca-fighting could be considered a minigame, and it's fun until you have to spend absurd amounts of time to get to 500.

How do you get to that dungeon on Outset?

[theaveng]