Topic: SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL - The New Megathread

[Dirk Temporo]

Jesus Christ. This is Super Smash Bros. It's a game where Pikachu beats up Ganondorf, and you're complaining about an additional element of randomness? Go play Virtua Fighter.

Jesus.

[Ceric]

In the end I agree with it being an item because that's how Smash Bros rolls.
Though I don't agree with that being the only way to get an alt mode.

Also off the top of my head I can think of at least 2 levels in Melee where it would be super easy to dodge Mario's Final Smash.

[that Baby guy]

Oh, I also think that if the Final Smash downgrades your character, you should have the option to choose that character in the first place.  There may be that option, though.  I suppose none of us know for sure yet.

Upgrades would be nifty, too, but I could see some balance problems with that.

[Ceric]

There is confirmation of alternate costumes...

[Adrock]

I'm merely proposing and supporting my idea of an alternative and people jump on my ass. I don't think I've been discourteous to anyone. God forbid someone has an opinion. Jeez....

I don't see how adding one OPTIONAL meter suddenly turns Smash into a traditional fighter. Do you even know how the super meters work in games like Street Fighter Alpha? There are levels, super combos for each level, chains, and so on. My suggestion proposes one thing: charge a meter to perform one move. Theoretically, it could be charged by repeatedly performing forward+A. I don't think that's too unreasonable for newbies. A bit more complex maybe (should you even choose to have it on), but certainly not unreasonable. Don't act like a single extra bar for each player is suddenly the most complicated thing ever because Smash already asks players to pay attention to at least 4 onscreen indicators: your percentage, your opponent's percentage, your shield and your opponent's shield.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take Smash any way I can get it. I play with and without items. I think they're both great ways to play and each requires its own unique strategies. Though I dislike the Smash Ball, I think it could work, but I can totally see it potentially being a broken, match-ruining mechanic. I simply prefer a means that rewards skill. Face it, we were all newbies at Smash at some point. But you practice and get better. A simple meter like the one I'm suggesting asks only that you pay attention to it and play the game the way Smash has always been played. It's not about chaining combos and complex button combinations. It's essentially just playing the game.

I'm not even a big traditional fighting game fan. I just think this could work in Smash because it's simple yet not simplistic. It follows the same principle of accessibility that the series is known for.

But... I can see that, in this forum anyway, it's me against the everyone.

[Dasmos]

Quote
Originally posted by: Adrock
I'm merely proposing and supporting my idea of an alternative and people jump on my ass. I don't think I've been discourteous to anyone. God forbid someone has an opinion. Jeez....

Your idea is horrible. Go away.

[Kairon]

Hee hee! It's fun to rant! Sorry you had to be my target Adrock!

But seriously, don't you see how the screen real-estate is limited for a 4-player vertical AND horizontally staged fighter with frenetic action and dynamic camera zooming game like Smash brothers? Throw four minibars on there and everything would get infinitely more cluttered. Not to mention that minibars of that size would utterly suck. And not to mention that they would just give players more things to track, lessening the jump-in simplicity of it and messying up the HUD.

Plus, that would imply that super smashes become a regular thing in the match, since it can be used over and over again... whereas with the item implementation it's something that's rarer, more special, and more flavorful as well.

[Dirk Temporo]

New update. Moving while firing weapons? Sounds neat!

[Adrock]

Have you seen the new damage meters? They added the character's name and a huge portrait so I don't think Sakurai is too worried about screen real estate. I would like them to nix the portraits. As for the meter, a bar that changes colors (blue, green, then red) or the character icon (i.e. Triforce for Link) fills up. In either case, they flash when full. One idea I think everyone can agree with is that I think the damage meters should become semi-transparent so as not to cover the action.

As I've stated, the game already asks players to keep track of quite a few things and I don't think that extra optional meter would make things super-complicated. It does one thing and only when charged. It's not a hard concept to explain and it'd be optional. I feel I've been quite clear on that. And I would like to use the Final Smash more than once a match. Here's the rub: since it's based on skill, you have to earn it which wouldn't be easy. Two equally (or near equally) skilled players might never see one in a match. Think of it as a sort-of tug-of-war. You want it, but you don't want your opponent to get it so trading hits wouldn't fill either bar. Final Smashes would be still rare, still special, and still frantic.... maybe moreso.

Anyway, moving while firing adds a new dimension to the game. Adds a bit more strategy to the Super Scope. And for nostaglia's sake, I'd like to see the NES Zapper replace the Ray Gun. I hope the Wii Remote becomes an item too though I wonder what they could do with it. Maybe a lightsaber... give Lucasarts a little hint...

[Spak-Spang]

Adrock:  "I suggested the option of turning off the meter. Regardless, the Final Smash attack isn't the problem. By snatching the Smash Ball, you didn't necessarily earn the right to use the Final Smash. If I earned a whole life lead over you, why should I possibly get screwed over if the Smash Ball happens to land in your vicinity? As an item, I see it potentially being very cheap. I know items in Smash often rely on luck and randomness and that's why I don't think it should be an item. As a character-unique move, I think it should part of the character's repertoire of moves."


But that is the nature of Smash Bros and the nature of the beast.  The randomness of the game that you can't control...and that randomness is what makes it such a good game for beginners and expert Smash Bros players.  Do we complain in Risk when I have a lead over you, but because of some great dice rolls you are able to completely break my defenses, and I can't get an edge in against you?  How about in cards when for some reason you continue to get pocket pairs, and I am not able to pick up a single good hand to bet on?  Randomness within the game is what creates character in the game, and what makes it approachable to all players.  My friends play me in Melee, because they know through the randomness of items, multiplayer action, and the entire nature of the beast...they can beat me.  

You say you don't want a person to get a lucky item and get a leg up on you after you earned a point lead on them...but the truth is that happens all the time in the game even with the most mundane items.  The Baseball Bat lands next to me...all of a sudden I have a huge advantage over you if we are equally skilled, because one hit and your gone.  

Basing it on skill and using the same system that scores your play in the skill mode would make it more interesting when playing 1 on 1 with equally skilled players, as it does become a give and take...but what happens when they aren't equally skilled.  Now you are completely dominating me...and you get the ability to use special moves?  What fun is that?  Dislike it or not, there is a reason last place gets the lightning bolts in Mario Kart, and Blue Shells...and not first place.  Because it is a balance.

Limiting it to once per character, and with an item trigger gives everyone a equal chance to get the item and use it...and yes at times the item will fall closer to your opponent than not.  Just accept the randomness and move on.  It is just part of the game, that has ALWAYS been in smash since the very beginning.

[Dasmos]

I don't like the new moving when shooting addition, it takes away a pretty vital weakness of the guns, especially the super scope. There's no challenge in chasing down your opponent while charging up the big shot, the strategy was always trying to position in the right spot so they'd jump or fall into it, so hopefully they leave that the way it was.

[Spak-Spang]

Dasmos:  Perhaps you can't move and charge the shot...or maybe your movement is hindered slightly...like no double jump and perhaps you move slower.

I like the idea of movement with some weapons, it is a good evolution, and depending on different game modes it could be a vital new strategy.


Speaking of different game modes, I am hoping for a King of the Hill time game.  I think defending a territory as a team, or as a solo player would be fantastic...and moving with a weapon would be a great tool in charging a defender.

Another game mode that at first might not seem to fit but would be cool is Capture the Flag.

Have 2 teams and if you grab the flag all you can do is move and throw the flag (no attacking.)  Could be a blast to play, and best of all something to play team with.

[Ceric]

Lets say the did use a meter instead.  That could work fine but I personally would prefer instead of a meter one of two things:
1.  The icon or portrait whatever there using to change as you charge like already mentioned
2.  The character itself change as you charge.  Like we now that flames go around Mario with his so as he charged they would start to develop until he has those huge flames in his eyes.
I just think it fit a little better with the feel of the game.

[Spak-Spang]

Yeah, I don't want a meter...I like the idea of the a visualization around the character for all charges.  I don't want to look at the bottom of the screen to notice if a character is about to get a special attack...or use a special attack.  But if I can see the character I am fighting is now glowing I know to be careful immediately.

[Bill Aurion]

"There's no challenge in chasing down your opponent while charging up the big shot, the strategy was always trying to position in the right spot so they'd jump or fall into it, so hopefully they leave that the way it was."

Well they didn't specifically state that you could move and charge at the same time...Only rapid-fire burst...

[Spak-Spang]

I would also ask how there is no challenge in running around shooting or charging a blast.

A player can easily turn around and jump and nail you any time they want.

They can drop through platforms.  Lead you into a trap that you weren't paying attention to.

Lure you into fighting somebody else.  

I mean you need to look more abstractly.  I also believe people are judging new additions to Brawl from the aspect of 1vs1 battles.  Well Brawl is more than that...specially if you include online play, where 1 on 1 should not be the norm.

[vudu]

I must not be paying enough attention, because I'm confused.  Is there a Smash Meter or are people saying there should be?  You guys need to find something else to do for the next six months besides speculate.

[Spak-Spang]

Vudu:  People are saying there should be.

The question being debated is:  Whether or not Final Smashes are too powerful to be an item that can be randomly picked up by any player, even if it is just one time use item.  Somebody in second or even third place could last minute KO 2 or 3 giving them the win that they truly didn't deserve.

The other arguement is that Smash Bros random nature of items, 4 player mayhem, and level hazards creates an intense unpredictable game environment that both advanced players and beginners can enjoy, and even have a chance against each other...and basing the collection or powering of the Final Smash on skill would create an even greater gap between great players and novinces that could hurt the fun factor.

Finally, I think there is another arguement, that is a blend of the two.  This opinion is ok with it being an item...they just don't want it to be a completely random item.  They want it to appear either after a certain time, action, points, kills, skill...something so that there is a way to play a good strong game and be rewarded by the item appearing and taking it.  Perhaps this creates a compromise that when the item appears it can be anyones to grab, but the skilled player triggers it, and potentially has the best chance of obtaining the item.

But to repeat there is no meter in the game.

[mantidor]

lets speculate about something else: how does Link's and Kirby's final smash work? Mario's covers the whole arena, but Link was seen only targeting mario in the triforce of death, as well as kirby and his cauldron of doom yes I like silly descriptions, leave me alone, how can these extend to the whole area and all 4 players?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Magick.

[that Baby guy]

Well, with Kirby's everyone should be forced into the pot.  That's how it worked in Super Star.

With Link's, who knows.  Maybe it lays the Tri-force down like a mine, and the first person to step on it gets ensnared.

[SixthAngel]

Why is this one item getting so much negative attention?  It isn't like there weren't ridiculously strong items already.  The hammer, bombs, baseball bat, certain pokemon, and  the heart and tomato (especially if play set lives games like me) all changed the flow of the game.  Is this getting extra attention because characters get a unique move or what?

[NWR_pap64]

This Super scope update is nice, but not worth mentioning or highlighting. In fact, this feels like it belongs to a much bigger set of updates.

One thing that is bugging me right now is that they are acting as if they are saving the updates in fear that they will run out of stuff to talk about, so they are only doing small updates.

Here's the thing; they have already revealed 11 characters (Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Snake, Metaknight, Pit, Wario and Fox). From the looks of things, they will make updates on these characters first. Once they are finished with them, they will move on with the returning Melee cast along with the Brawl newcomers. The final tally could be 20 + characters (there was the rumor of the game featuring around 40 characters, but as S_B pointed out to me that was a rumor mentioned by some random game, it never came directly from Sakurai, so the safest bet is that the game might feature 20 plus characters).

If they are planning on making individual updates on their moves, final smashes, items, stages, music, gameplay additions, basics of gameplay, controls and other stuff, they will have PLENTY to talk about, even after the game is released, so there's no excuse as to why the SSB creators are holding the updates back.

So for example, if the character of the day is going to be Mario, then make multiple updates about HIS character, stage, theme song and special attacks included, not just make individual updates.

Later in the week: Look out for the update on how they worked greatly on Wario's ass so that its realistic and accurate, especially when performing his final smash, the Wario Waft (this is Smash_Brother's joke. He is very busy today so I am making sure the joke gets posted ).  

[Adrock]

Quote
Spak-Spang wrote:
But that is the nature of Smash Bros and the nature of the beast.  The randomness of the game that you can't control...and that randomness is what makes it such a good game for beginners and expert Smash Bros players.

Randomness is part of the game, not the nature of it. You can turn items off, making the game far less luck based. A meter only means that the Final Smash would not be left to the luck of the draw. The game would still be as random as its ever been. As I said before: Smash has always been easy to get into yet extremely difficult to master. Randomness doesn't make Smash accessible. Items don't bridge the gap between beginners and expert players because real expert players won't lose to beginners. They're better and know the ins and outs of the game better, including how to use the items more effectively. Skill is at the heart of every good game. Where's the fun in getting cheaped out? The Final Smash moves could potentially f*ck up your day. Attacks that powerful should be as hard to pull off as possible.

Quote
mantidor wrote:
how does Link's and Kirby's final smash work?

I'd imagine that while Final Smash is activated, Link is in a loop and can only move and attack in the direction of opponents in the vicinity.

Kirby's would be way too cheap if everyone automatically was dropped into a pot. I really don't know how Kirby's would work.  

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Brawl is coming out in 2012.

There are enough daily updates to last till 2012.

Daily updates are enough there are.