Topic: Capcom has a lot of Wii games planned, but...

[Kairon]

Believe me Pittboi, when shovelports have to compete against other shovel ports, they will start improving. Shovel ports only stay shovel ports when there's no better alternative around. The more shovel ports land on the Wii early on, the more competitive future games will have to be to break out from the crowd.

Nothing forces third party developers and publishers to improve like competition on THEIR level. (i.e. Nintendo games blow 'em away anyways so there's no point, but similar third party shovelware....) You start at shovel level, and you work your way up. We're seeing Scar Face, Godfather, and Man Hunt all land on the Wii. If they want to sell, each game of this type will have to outdo the other.

In short, the best shovel port wins, raises the bar, and the cycle of competitive improvement repeats.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Mario]

Quote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
GTA is not a game of quality.

Yes it is. It's so good i'd buy a new system for it, which is why it's important for me that Nintendo gets it on Wii.

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Mario

Quote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
GTA is not a game of quality.

Yes it is. It's so good i'd buy a new system for it, which is why it's important for me that Nintendo gets it on Wii.

QFT. This game is made by DMA.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.

The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.

This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Yeah those games have been one of the root causes to make gaming more of a pop culture phenomena instead of substance because they are "cool" because you can shoot things. Personally I don't find the games you listed as "poor" but they are leaning towards being generic (Especially the GTA series which has been recycled like crazy). There is little to no innovation found in them, let's run down the list:

GTA: Was pretty unique when first began (as in GTA3 where it made a name for itself) but is basically more of the same
GoW: A mindless shooter with high production values
God of War: A quality action game but still doesn't do anything unique
Final Fantasy: A series that has been stagnant for quite some time and is hinging on being a "watch" more than you play
Metal Gear solid: Good series, but basically more of the the same except it is becoming more of a movie than a game
Countless Other Games: Probably a mishmash of the above.  

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.

The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.

This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Yeah those games have been one of the root causes to make gaming more of a pop culture phenomena instead of substance because they are "cool" because you can shoot things. Personally I don't find the games you listed as "poor" but they are leaning towards being generic (Especially the GTA series which has been recycled like crazy). There is little to no innovation found in them, let's run down the list:

GTA: Was pretty unique when it first began but is basically more of the same
GoW: A mindless shooter with high production values
God of War: A quality action game but still doesn't do anything unique
Final Fantasy: A series that has been stagnant for quite some time and is hinging on being a "watch" more than you play
Metal Gear solid: Good series, but basically more of the the same except it is becoming more of a movie than a game
Countless Other Games: Probably a mishmash of the above.

So I take it you wouldn't buy these games in the completely hypothetical situation that they landed on the Wii right?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.

The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.

This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Yeah those games have been one of the root causes to make gaming more of a pop culture phenomena instead of substance because they are "cool" because you can shoot things. Personally I don't find the games you listed as "poor" but they are leaning towards being generic (Especially the GTA series which has been recycled like crazy). There is little to no innovation found in them, let's run down the list:

GTA: Was pretty unique when it first began but is basically more of the same
GoW: A mindless shooter with high production values
God of War: A quality action game but still doesn't do anything unique
Final Fantasy: A series that has been stagnant for quite some time and is hinging on being a "watch" more than you play
Metal Gear solid: Good series, but basically more of the the same except it is becoming more of a movie than a game
Countless Other Games: Probably a mishmash of the above.

So I take it you wouldn't buy these games in the completely hypothetical situation that they landed on the Wii right?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

I wouldn't touch Final Fantasy or MGS because I don't care much for either series (I've really tried to get into MGS, but I only beat MGS2, MGS3 was unimpressive. FF, the only game I've really liked in the series was FFIV). GTA, I actually own every GTA because they are mindless fun, but not what I'd call innovative. Personally I've gotten more enjoyment from the Godfather game, along with Saint's Row. God of War, I also own this as well, and like I said it is a very good action game, just not pushing the industry into new lands. GoW, didn't care much for it, and personally find Lost Planet to be a better title.

Would I buy these if they were on Wii? Probably not unless they had some unique uses of the Wimote, because I'd just buy them (Like I have been) for Xbox 360 or PS3 (whenever I get a PS3) because of the graphical upgrade. I'll probably get Manhunt 2 for Wii if it is any good because it sounds like the Wii version will be the best one if they handle the controls well.

[KDR_11k]

That's just it: the Wii IS going to get the right userbase, and we know that because developers are already bringing mature franchises to the Wii, some of them the most controversial ever.

Uh, how do you know that's going to attract a large userbase? The "mature" games on the Wii are nice but no system sellers and the 360 has better ones.

GTA, I actually own every GTA because they are mindless fun, but not what I'd call innovative.

So free-roaming games like that were commonplace before GTA3 came out?

[denjet78]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.

The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.

This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

I wouldn't say "Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biases and cracked lenses". A big part of the issue is that Nintendo gamers are just plain pissed at 3rd parties. I know I am. For TWO generations they've crapped all over you if you primarily buy Nintendo saying their games won't sell when they have absolutely zero proof of that because they won't put their games on Nintendo platforms in the first place. And then, to come out and actively SUPPORT Sony and MS in their mudslinging campaign against Nintendo. To tell US, the GAMERS, that if you want to play a "real" game you need to buy a PS or XBox.

It's not completely the Nintendo gamers fault. 3rd parties have made their own beds over the past few generations. Anger is to be expected. Especially after all the garbage they've put us through. It's going to take time for that resentment to subside. And it's going to take QUALITY games to prove that they're not just blowing smoke.

[GoldenPhoenix]

[GoldenPhoenix]

KDR you obviously missed my point, I admitted GTA started out as a unique, and possibly innovative title. I admit I am hesitant to call it innovative, maybe it helped make it popular, but other games have attempted the same thing, mainly on PC (elder scrolls amongst others) but also one that I can think of on consoles (There could be more), which is Shenmue. Regardless it is more of the same with nothing really innovative about the sequels, heck they recycled the same old engine for multiple games (I believe 4 if you include the PSP games).  

Sorry about the double post, not sure what happened!  

[KDR_11k]

GTA 3 was the first free-roaming carefree game, there were no permanent negative consequences, if you died you respawned, if you messed up you tried again. It did play unlike anything before it and I'd call that innovative even though the components may not be all that new.

[JonLeung]

I must admit, Dead Rising is the one of the only games I'm interested in for the Xbox 360 (well, maybe also Rare's Viva Pinata).

Regardless of Capcom's stance and reasoning, I think that an email response from the "Sr. Director of Strategic Planning & Research" could be a lot better than just being a statement that Nintendo is "for kids".

Then again, I've always valued honesty, even when it's blunt, but if that's how they all think, that's pretty much idiocy.

I love Capcom, and I thought they worked together with Nintendo often...there are the handheld Legend of Zelda games, the RE exclusivity (even if other than RE 0 they are remakes/ports and RE 4 didn't stay exclusive) and the "Capcom 5" (even though one died and three were not exclusive) and...oh, wait, maybe those last two aren't good examples.  >_<

If the Wii continues being a hit, Capcom better devote more resources to Wii games soon.  It's really their loss if they don't get on board now, isn't it?

[Ceric]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
GTA 3 was the first free-roaming carefree game, there were no permanent negative consequences, if you died you respawned, if you messed up you tried again. It did play unlike anything before it and I'd call that innovative even though the components may not be all that new.

You know that sounds a lot like GTA, expansion, and GTA2...

[KDR_11k]

In GTA 1 and 2 you had limited lives, die too often and it's game over. Also GTA 1 and 2 had much simpler vehicle physics which meant stunts weren't possible so there were much more limited options for what you do with that free roaming

If the Wii continues being a hit, Capcom better devote more resources to Wii games soon. It's really their loss if they don't get on board now, isn't it?

They are on board, that's what the whole thread is about. They just haven't moved their entire output to the Wii.

[ryancoke]

Capcom is known for mature games? Maybe i'm a bit old-school here but when I think of Capcom, the first thing I think of is Megaman and street fighter. If somebosy asked me who made Resident Evil I would probably say Konami...

[JonLeung]

I don't know why anyone would think Resident Evil was anyone other than Capcom, but I guess to someone unfamiliar to games, it is kind of a step away from the Mega Man and Street Fighter games.

Dead Rising and Lost Planet I have to keep reminding myself that they're by Capcom.  They certainly don't look like Capcom games.  But what does it mean to "look" like a Capcom game?  I guess that's what happens when you play lots of colourful NES-era Mega Man games and Capcom-developed Disney platformers, and even their Super NES-era fighting games were colourful but not ever trying to be realistic.

By the way, what makes Konami "mature"?  Sure, they have Silent Hill and Metal Gear Solid, but how come no one ever makes a big deal about Konami's Yu-Gi-Oh!, Disney Sports games, Goemon, etc.?  Yu-Gi-Oh! in particular is really big, but the Konami name seems separate from it.  CastleVania is kind of like Capcom's Street Fighter...not exactly for kids, but some of the games are fairly colourful and often not as bloody as you might think.

(When I got serious about gaming in the NES era, Capcom and Konami were the first two third-party developers I recognized.  They were distinct, and yet looking back on it like I just did there they are kind of similar.  They both are Japanese (if that means anything) and have been around for about as long (or at least I think so).  They have many franchises across a few genres, some long-running and very recognizeable.  They both have "mature games" as well as Saturday morning cartoon fare (literally, in the form of MMBN and Yu-Gi-Oh!).)

I guess this topic is about Capcom, though.  However, I hope their belief that "Nintendo is for kids" isn't as prevalent in other companies.  The Wii will probably get some Yu-Gi-Oh! games, but it will get games like Manhunt 2 if developers will simply do it.  Chicken/egg, as was already mentioned.

[KDR_11k]

Konami also loves cameos and spoofs, just when you think you're playing a serious game a floating Moai appears... Who else would have made a Castlevania game contain a spell that gives you the shield from Gradius?

[zakkiel]

Quote
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.

The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.

This sort of elitism is close-minded, counter-productive, poisonous, and is what's keeping us in the Nintendo Ghetto.

I wouldn't touch GTA or FF with a ten-foot-pole, and I haven't been able to get into MGS. But I would certainly by Gears of War, Resistance, Halo. There's an enormous market on the Wii for quality, mature shooters waiting to be satisfied. You don't have to think any of those are the bee's knees to be willing to buy them.

Anyway, I think your supposed "problem" is bunk. Red steel got enormous positive buzz the second it was announced for the Wii. Nintendo gamers long to embrace any real third-party investment. Witness the sales of RS despite mediocre reviews. If any major third party announced tomorrow it was developing a Wii game on the scale of HL2, there would be wild exaltation among fans everywhere.  

[JonLeung]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
When Nintendo gamers have pooh-poohed million selling hits like GTA, MGS, FF, GoW, God of War, and countless other games that are examples of exactly what third parties have to offer if they came on board, then it seems clear that Nintendo gamers are viewing games through biased and cracked lenses.

The problem with Nintendo gamers is not that they don't buy good games, it's that they REFUSE to see them.

Oh, I see them all right.  GTA on the PC.  I played all the FFs up to VIII without requiring a PlayStation (VII and VIII are on PC, and then I borrowed a PSX for IX, though I could've avoided that too thanks to the ePSXe emulator).  MG and MGS:TS are on Nintendo consoles (and there's also a GBC game), and MGS2: Substance I played on PC.

Though I guess the question is why they aren't predominantly on Nintendo consoles.  In the meantime, Nintendo gamers should also have at least one good PC (like I do).  I support good games on any platform, but I'm not going to shell out money for another console when I can play a version on my PC.  I come off as a Nintendo fanboy, but that doesn't mean I haven't played GTA, MGS, or FF.

The thing is, Nintendo consoles have many more recognizeable and still popular big-name first-party Nintendo games than the PlayStations have Sony games and the Xbox has Microsoft games.  Which is why there are Nintendo fans but most PlayStation and Xbox owners aren't Sony or Microsoft fans.  They just happen to own one of their consoles.  Therefore, many developers may feel intimidated by Nintendo and their games.  After third-party support dropped in the N64 days, it dropped even more when they saw that usually only Nintendo games sold really well.  Stupid spiral of non-support.  You can't blame Nintendo for being good at what they do, and I don't think Nintendo slowing down their own releases or not making them as good is the answer.

I think if developers took the "risk" in making more good games for any demographic for the Wii, that would encourage other developers to make more good games for that whole spectrum as well.

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k Uh, how do you know that's going to attract a large userbase? The "mature" games on the Wii are nice but no system sellers and the 360 has better ones.

I'm going to let Kairon answer this one because he already fielded it...

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon Nothing forces third party developers and publishers to improve like competition on THEIR level. (i.e. Nintendo games blow 'em away anyways so there's no point, but similar third party shovelware....) You start at shovel level, and you work your way up. We're seeing Scar Face, Godfather, and Man Hunt all land on the Wii. If they want to sell, each game of this type will have to outdo the other.

In short, the best shovel port wins, raises the bar, and the cycle of competitive improvement repeats.

A large userbase = a large mature gamer userbase as well.

The PS2 got all of the mature games because of its huge userbase. No other reason.

When the Wii attains a userbase of similar size, it will likewise have M games in force.

The fact that it's even getting THIS many M games this early on is actually pretty remarkable, considering Nintendo's track record for M games. This bode extremely well for the Wii's lifelong game variety.

[Kairon]

It's sort of weird to see you being all optimistic S_B when you were so stressed out when you were wii hunting! LOL.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[MaryJane]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon  We're seeing Scar Face, Godfather, and Man Hunt all land on the Wii.  

I just happened to be watching Scarface, we took a little break for something, and I just wanted to say it's one word. Scarface.

[Kairon]

Dang... I was looking at it just now too and thinking about that...

*ahem* GameBoy... that is all...

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's sort of weird to see you being all optimistic S_B when you were so stressed out when you were wii hunting! LOL.

In this case, Nintendo (specifically Reggie) has already demonstrated that they understand that the Wii needs M games to thrive just as much as it needs E games. If Manhunt 2 was indeed his decision, then he has done Nintendo a colossal favor when it comes to not only shedding their kiddie image but also in giving other developers the green light who may have previously been cautious about bringing M titles to the Wii.

Less than a year after its launch and the Wii will already be bringing in at least one highly controversial M title and a bunch of others to boot. Considering how this would NOT have happened on the GC or even GC2, that ain't a bad day's work...

Also, it's the fact that Nintendo seems to realize that they NEED to set their console's precedent ASAP, when it comes to which titles are appropriate for it, which gives me hope on the subject. If the Wii loads up on M games early, it will set the stage for more to show up, especially as the userbase expands and developing for it becomes more lucrative.  

[NWR_pap64]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It's sort of weird to see you being all optimistic S_B when you were so stressed out when you were wii hunting! LOL.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

That's because I put a death threat on his head when he went Wii hunting for me. If he failed, he would die a horrible, horrible death.

Would YOU be cool as a cucumber when you are doing Wii hunting under such conditions?