Topic: Nintendo online argument

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: MarioAllStar

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Originally posted by: Kairon
I agree. I don't see anything wrong with that solution. Nintendo needs to do whatever they need to do to allow for the most versatile system they can within the constraints of friend codes.

But why does that constraint need to be there? Like I have stated time and time again, Nintendo just needs to make online play part of their parental controls. Parents can restrict the experience for kids (like no in-game communication), and the rest of us can have a better online system. One big barrier is just the fact that both people have to add each other before playing together. Why can't a friend just say, "This is my Wii Number, invite me to a game of Smash Bros. later"? That would make things so much easier.

Oh, I would like to add to my ideal Nintendo online setup by saying people should be able to choose a Wii to associate with their number/name. That is, I should not have to manually set Miis to each person on my friend list--a person should be able to choose their own Mii avatar.

I like your ideas. Like before, I said that Nintendo should compare their friend codes to phone numbers, and use that comparison to improve their system.

For example, you should be able to opt in when someone else has your wii code and tries to contact you. You should be able to "pick up" even if you don't know their phone number! If one person has 3 other people's wii codes and invites them all to a game and they all accept the invitation, then it'd be like a neat teleconferencing thing!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

I'm going to have to defend Nintendo's online service other than the friend codes, because I do think it will take time for it to develop. Yes Nintendo has been involved with online for awhile, but it was mostly tinkering with it, nothing major, and usually just in Japan. The NDS was their first real attempt to come up with an online infrastructure that was worldwide, and even at that the DS is pretty bare bones because it is a handheld.

So that leaves the Wii as their first real attempt at putting together a solid, feature filled online network, and it will take time to develop. It will take time, and more importantly MONEY to get it fully up and running, as it stands I think it is competent system if you exclude playing games online. In fact I've had more fun playing around with the Wii's online than I've ever had with Xbox Live, then again I don't have the online connection to play online games.

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi
I'm sorry, but all of you sound like you're coming up with bogus reasons for why Nintendo shouldn't do things, and that makes you inherently wrong. The main beef is with the friend code system, and the only way you guys can justify it is by comparing it to Xbox live. That's not fair at all. Nintendo could provide a much better online system if they just did away with friend codes. They don't have to compete with Xbox Live.

Xbox Live isn't the gold standard. They're just an example of online done right. There are many other ways of doing it without charging.

Bogus reasons? That's your opinion. The fact of the matter is that you're still comparing Nintendo's online network to Sony and MS and they will never measure up. You say it can't be justified by comparing it to Live but you're comparing it to Live in order to back up your claims that Nintendo's dropping the ball. So, which is it? You say Nintendo's network is bad. Compared to what? If there's nothing to compare it to it can neither be good nor bad. It simply is. Considering you think it's bad you must be comparing it to something you thing is better.

And true, Live isn't the gold standard. It isn't even online done right. It's online cluttered with extra features because they can't seem to figure out what else to do with it. So many people are whining about online but I almost NEVER hear anything in the way of complaints about the actual games. No, it's always about extra features that have squat to do with games.

Online right now is basically world-wide multiplayer and I really, REALLY don't understand how people can be so obscenely obsessed with it. When I see a real and honest to goodness reason for online, as in new and innovative types of play that cannot be done any other way, then I'll be a convert. Right now it is anything but. To be honest, I don't care if Wii goes online at all. I'd rather Nintendo spend their time and effort on creating new game ideas than waste it adding useless features. And yes, I see online as next to useless.

Besides, you're not talking about the games. Almost no one is talking about the games. They're talking about superfluous features that actually bring little to nothing to the game experience. Why are we arguing over features on a GAMES CONSOLE that have nothing to do with actually PLAYING THE GAMES? It's like the whole argument over the fact that the GC didn't come with a DVD player.

I've yet to see anyone acknowledge that fact.

[Kairon]

I don't see any reason to "excuse" Nintendo. The market, nor consumers will care if service is lackluster. And if Nintendo chose to prioritize something else above online, then there's nothing wrong with them getting credit for their failures as well as their successes. They're a big company, they can take their licks just like they can take their praise.

I WILL, however, defend their direction of online. Nintendo can't afford to be a me too in my eyes, it'd be a waste of time and money. Nintendo needs Animal Crossing online FAR MORE than it needs Metroid Prime 3 online in my opinion. Hardcore players may whine for voice chat, and more ways to blow each other up, but what's more important to Nintendo is making the experience more NEWBIE safe and friendly... though obviously, they still have some ways to go there as well.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: Kairon
I don't see any reason to "excuse" Nintendo. The market, nor consumers will care if service is lackluster. And if Nintendo chose to prioritize something else above online, then there's nothing wrong with them getting credit for their failures as well as their successes. They're a big company, they can take their licks just like they can take their praise.

I WILL, however, defend their direction of online. Nintendo can't afford to be a me too in my eyes, it'd be a waste of time and money. Nintendo needs Animal Crossing online FAR MORE than it needs Metroid Prime 3 online in my opinion. Hardcore players may whine for voice chat, and more ways to blow each other up, but what's more important to Nintendo is making the experience more NEWBIE safe and friendly... though obviously, they still have some ways to go there as well.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

I don't care if online on the Wii fails. It's already a failure in my eyes on the other consoles. Right now it's a pointless feature. It does absolutely nothing for games. Argue if you want but I can already experience multiplayer in my living room and have been able to for decades.

I'd like to try Animal Crossing online though, but only with 4 users max allowed in any given town. If AC online was turned into an MMO it would completely suck. A big part of the experience is interacting with all the strange and colorful characters in the town. If the town was made up of nothing but other users... just imagine how crap that would be. But a 4 player game where just a couple of users can interact in a much more intimate environment. That would be an interesting game. It would be cool being able to play a Pokemon game like that too. You and a couple friends traveling across the world battling, training, getting to know each other. The problem is, in an MMO everyone is out for themselves. There's no real sense of connection with other users. Why else would PKing be such a huge problem in those types of games? There's no respect for other players when you're constantly told that they're the enemy.

[Kairon]

I get ya Denjet.

In my opinion, ansynchronous connections like Elebits or Spore and limited synchronous connections like Animal Crossing and PSO should be Nintendo's goals for the Wii, and nothing more ambitious than that. And all of that more non-gamer and casual and not uber hardcore gameplay at all. Competitive shooter deathmatch gameplay though? ... no thank you.

Oh GOD can you imagine Harvest Moon Crossing? Have other players visit your farm and help out with chores! /drool

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[denjet78]

I can see being able to visit other peoples farms in Harvest Moon. Trading different types of seeds that you've created or even ones that can only be found in your version of the game, selling animals or crops to each other, talking shop about how you manage to deal with your sheep when they get sick. If you can't manage to make it to the farm that day, have someone else fill in for you. Keep the games seperate in that you still have your own world to deal with but allow outsiders the ability to interact and change things, to a point. It would be fantastic if you could invite friends over for your birthday. There are just so many little things that can be done without having to sacrifice the integrity of the gameplay just for the sake of throwing in online.

[KDR_11k]

You want to play with someone, you give them your friend code and they give you theirs. And then... now guess what? I know this is going to scare some of you because I didn't even know you could do this either but...

YOU PLAY THE DAMN GAME!

When I go online I don't do it to play with friends. My friends don't even have Wiis.

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You want to play with someone, you give them your friend code and they give you theirs. And then... now guess what? I know this is going to scare some of you because I didn't even know you could do this either but...

YOU PLAY THE DAMN GAME!

When I go online I don't do it to play with friends. My friends don't even have Wiis.

Wow you... really showed me.

...

...

*cough*

[IceCold]

I think he was supposed to quote this..

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Right now it's a pointless feature. It does absolutely nothing for games. Argue if you want but I can already experience multiplayer in my living room and have been able to for decades.

[denjet78]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
I think he was supposed to quote this..

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Right now it's a pointless feature. It does absolutely nothing for games. Argue if you want but I can already experience multiplayer in my living room and have been able to for decades.

Because... I have an opinion that doesn't line up with the rest of the sheeple? I'm sorry that I don't believe in online at all. That's my opinion, I'm allowed to have it. If you want to have a discussion about that, that's fine. Otherwise I really don't appreciate your implications. Besides, I'm not allowed to have a sense of humor? I realize that Wiis are extremely difficult to find. My previous comment was an, apparently failed, attempt at levity. You need to be able to find humor in any situation. If you can't, you're going to lead a very sad, very boring life.

[KDR_11k]

I go online when I can't find a friend to play the game with but want to play multiplayer anyway. Having to exchange friend codes with people I know beforehand and having to make sure I'm online at the same time as them isn't what I use online for, it's to find a random opponent when noone else is available.

[GoldenPhoenix]

One game I am concerned about when it comes to the Wii's online infrastructure is Batallion Wars II which is supposed to be online. Without being able to communicate strategy, I see the online multiplayer mode being potentially lame. That game requires strategy and I don't think pre-recorded phrases will cut it!

[Nephilim]

Btw how fast does elebits download for wii using online?

Noticed DS is locked at about 20kb/s (20kb/s normal is barely enough speed for 1 on 1 fps pc games)
hope Wii has a higher speed, should show if they are planning games over 4 people (which isnt a simple game like tetris or bomberman)

[segagamer12]

>>It's already a failure in my eyes on the other consoles<<


yes but what you thik is failure adn what the publsihers think is failure dont seam to macth up. as far as EVERYONE ELSE is concerned Xbox Live got it right. Nintendo NEEDs to have something along those lines, maybe not as good but better than what DS has and much better than what Wii has been getting.  

[Smash_Brother]

Would I be the only one who'd be happy with a "Wii Ping" that just tells me if my online friends are on, what they're playing, and the ability to send them messages?

That would be fine by me, as far as I'm concerned. Just some basic functionality regarding tracking down people to play games with would be all I'd ever truly need.

[MarioAllStar]

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Originally posted by: denjet78
If the town was made up of nothing but other users... just imagine how crap that would be. But a 4 player game where just a couple of users can interact in a much more intimate environment. That would be an interesting game. It would be cool being able to play a Pokemon game like that too. You and a couple friends traveling across the world battling, training, getting to know each other. The problem is, in an MMO everyone is out for themselves. There's no real sense of connection with other users.

That is the kind of online gaming I want, too. Of course, developers should be able to make an online competitive FPS if they want to, but I would love it if we saw more community-based games online.

I want the Wii itself to be a community-based system. That's why I think it is so important that we have the option to see when friends are online and invite them to a game. It is much more natural and fun to see a friend is playing the Wii and simply invite them to your Animal Crossing town than it is to open your gate, call them up, ask if they can play a game, tell them to get on Animal Crossing, and wait for them to enter your town. It might be a small difference, but I think with the current system friends have to jump through too many hoops to play together.

Edit: Smash_Brother sums it up nicely.

[TerribleOne]

How anyone is opposed to online gaming is beyond me. It's like your government trying to limit you to speaking to people on this forum if you don't know them in real life and you not being known for your S/N but as IP # 192.122.23.01... WTF? Nobody is asking for some out of this world experience but it would definitely be a plus to have a central lobby system where i can challenge players when it's 1 am at night and i feel like playing some multiplayer. The Wii already has parental control, why not extend it to limit the system when children are playing? instead everyone suffers.

[Pittbboi]

Denjet78:

The method you're arguing here is extremely flawed. Nintendo shouldn't do online because, to you, it's pointless. Xbox Live is a failure, to you, because it's nothing but a cacophony of features that you don't care about.

Well, not to offend you, but you don't make up the whole of the gaming universe. These "pointless features" are growing in popularity and people want them. And I'm sorry, but Xbox Live is viewed as quite the success by not just gamers, but the whole of the gaming industry. You're taking your radical opinions on what online should be and applying them to the industry as a means of explaining that Nintendo is right in their lackluster approach to online, because online is something you don't personally care about. Denjet, and Kairon too, it's that exact same elitism that was the downfall of Nintendo with the N64. Nintendo ignored the signs of a growing and changing industry and stuck to what they wanted to do because, frankly, nothing outside of what they wanted to do made any sense to them. And, well, we all know how that turned out.

Look, I'm no big fan of online, either. I don't play PC games, I've never owned an Xbox or 360, and I only have two games for my PS2 and they're Square RPGs. My main consoles for the past 2 generations have been Nintendo-made, so technically that means I shouldn't even know what "online gaming" is. But I can still see the importance of Nintendo taking online seriously. Online is popular this gen, and it's only going to continue growing more popular. If Nintendo wants to remain relevant to gaming, online is something they're eventually going to have to take seriously. And, for the umpteenth time, this does not mean Nintendo needs to copy Xbox Live. Nintendo can't do everything, you guys are right about that much, but that should NOT stop them from providing the best they can. And I think it's pretty damn near unanimous that they aren't doing that with friend codes and a shoddy online structure. Nintendo may be new to online, but online sure as hell isn't new. Wii online, as it stands now, is crap even when you consider that it's Nintendo's first real try. Even developers have said that it doesn't look like Nintendo gave it any thought.

Oh, and restricting Wii Online to a community based system would severely limit the Wii to only those who lived in a community of Wii users. And that isn't me. I know 3 other people who have Wiis. I can imagine any online game being terribly limited if I had to rely on only three other people to be online and in the mood to play the game I wanted to play for a decent experience. I can understand Nintendo wanting to emphasize that type of connectivity to set it apart from the competition, but they need to also provide a way for me to get online at any time I want, and find people to play online with even when my friends may be online and playing other games. And, I'm sorry, but Nintendo is a multi-billion dollar company; they can provide that BASIC experiences that other companies have been providing for free for YEARS without having to dig deep in their pockets.  For Nintendo to deny that connection with the WORLD is a main attraction of online demonstrates that they still haven't gotten rid of some of that "Nintendo is the best and does everything right and knows what's best for gaming" elitism that did them in two generations ago.      

[MarioAllStar]

To clarify, my desire for a "community-based system" is my hope an online-enabled system where, in addition to "hardcore" titles, there are also titles that appeal to less competitive types. I had a lot of fun taking turns playing Super Mario games back in day with friends and I still do today. I want online games that are simple and fun like that to exist alongside more competitive online experiences.

[Kairon]

Hmmm.... Pittboi:

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Originally posted by: PittbboiWell, not to offend you, but you don't make up the whole of the gaming universe.

When you talk about the gaming industry changing, I think it's more important to look at the XBox 360's demographics. Selling less than PS2, dead in the water in Japan and to a lesser extent Europe (the two most advanced markets in terms of a shift to casual/non gaming), tracking at more or less XBox 1 numbers...

I don't question that Nintendo's online infrastructure is lacking and that their friend codes require improvement, but I strenuously object to the idea that the industry is changing in the direction you think it is. People are using online more and more, yes, but for what? For Myspace, for Youtube, for NewGrounds, for MapQuest, for Online "Look at my Photos" sharing.

Let's not forget that the number one online game being played today is probably some variation on the card game Hearts. And it's being played by middle aged women. Let's take a look at the men then: even with it's hardcore-High-Definition-male demographic, despite having original platforming-action content, despite having scoreboards and downloadable online games up the wazoo... one of the biggest sellers for XBLA was UNO.

Oh sure, we're getting BWii online and SSBB online and maybe if we're lucky even Red Steel 2. All typical hardcore stuff. But any serious hardcore tradtional gamer will always have a better choice than the Wii: the X360 or PS3 or PC. This is why the emphasis on what Nintendo can do DIFFERENT than what they can do similar, the emphasis on what they can do NEW instead of what they can do the same.

There's no question they can do it better. And there's no question that we'd all like to see that. But simply doing a better job will never truly satisfy anyone who can compare it to the X360. What's more important, with an eye towards the Wii's mission, the Wii's demographics, and today's online atmosphere, is to deliver online, free, low-stress high-community content.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

P.S. Oh, by the way, I agree that Nintendo needs a more robust infrastructure, including VOIP, and more flexible friend code methods. if Nintendo really wants to capture those non-game markets, they need VOIP on the Wii and an "opt out" safety strategy that's directly opposite of they're opt-in strategy. Women (and non-hardcore gamers) play online to socialize, i.e. TALK. This necessitates a revamping of the "friend code" system's double-key opt-in system.

Edit: Good discussion! Learning a lot through research and other stuff!

[Smash_Brother]

I've seen what Live offers and I personally don't need most of it. Accomplishments and such are nonsense, but I wouldn't mind having game demos and a friend list which I can use to contact people.

In that same vein, VOIP via a bluetooth headset would seal the deal for me. How could you pass up on that?

But yeah, online is the icing on the cake, not the necessity. I believe it's more important that the Wii be a crowd pleaser offline than a lone gamer's hideaway online, but something to make WiiConnect24 feel more like a networked community would definitely be welcome.

[Pittbboi]

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People are using online more and more, yes, but for what? For Myspace, for Youtube, for NewGrounds, for MapQuest, for Online "Look at my Photos" sharing.

None of that excuses Nintendo's current online structure, which isn't even capturing the market you say they're going for. All in all, you're saying Nintendo is trying to do a different online service to go after the non-gamer and stay away from current gaming trends because they can't compete. They're going after people who use online to share photos and be different. But how are they doing that with their current system? With Nintendo's current online gaming infrastructure, there's no indication that Nintendo has any focus in regards to games. Sure, there's a news and [crappy]weather channel, but for games where's this non-gamer focus?  

And, if they just focus on the non-gamer, "the internet is 4 myspace!!" crowd then, once again, Nintendo's giving a big "F-You" to the gamer who wouldn't mind just having a service that works, and not all the bells and whistles Xbox Live provides. You know, the gamers who don't want to have to buy another system because the Wii version of a popular multi-platform game doesn't have the online features it has on every other system because Nintendo wants to be "different" (read: lazy) with their online.  

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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People are using online more and more, yes, but for what? For Myspace, for Youtube, for NewGrounds, for MapQuest, for Online "Look at my Photos" sharing.

None of that excuses Nintendo's current online structure, which isn't even capturing the market you say they're going for. All in all, you're saying Nintendo is trying to do a different online service to go after the non-gamer and stay away from current gaming trends because they can't compete. They're going after people who use online to share photos and be different. But how are they doing that with their current system? With Nintendo's current online gaming infrastructure, there's no indication that Nintendo has any focus in regards to games. Sure, there's a news and [crappy]weather channel, but for games where's this non-gamer focus?  

And, if they just focus on the non-gamer, "the internet is 4 myspace!!" crowd then, once again, Nintendo's giving a big "F-You" to the gamer who wouldn't mind just having a service that works, and not all the bells and whistles Xbox Live provides. You know, the gamers who don't want to have to buy another system because the Wii version of a popular multi-platform game doesn't have the online features it has on every other system because Nintendo wants to be "different" (read: lazy) with their online.

I never say any of that Pittboi. I say Nintendo needs to drive online experiences such as Animal Crossing and non-gamer online experiences (such as XBLA's UNO) more than it needs "gamer" games. Community-centered experiences are more relevant to today's market than traditional generation X games.

I ALSO, if you READ my post, put forward reasons why Nintendo needs a more robust network, INCLUDING VOIP, and why Nintendo NEEDS to revamp their friend system if they want to be successful at continuing doing what their Wii has already started. But non-gamers are the reason, not hardcore gamers.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com    

[MarioAllStar]

Personally, I think Nintendo needs to target both audiences and, when you look at it, they already are. We all know that an Animal Crossing game for Wii is inevitable and Super Smash Bros. Brawl has confirmed online support. Right there are two games, targeting largely different markets, both with online support. I don't think Nintendo needs to change what demographics they are catering for--they already have a wide range of games--but they definitely need to make their online experience better for everyone.