Topic: Wii Third Party Domination

[Ian Sane]

"I can't imagine anyone getting 'tired' playing this game. You'd have to be so immensely out of shape that just getting up would be a laborious act."

I mean tiresome in that you'll get tired OF playing it, not tired FROM playing it.  Eventually the novelty of waving the remote around for what logically could be a button push will wear off.  The future of the remote is in games that use it to do things that couldn't be done before, not games that are basically just "normal controller" games mapped to the remote.

[ShyGuy]

Pittbboi, can you give us a list of undeniably good third party games? Just for context.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?

Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?

They're going to improve on their crap games for the only reason to improve period: to outsell other crap games. It's an arms race Pittboi. It's self-propogating.

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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Luckily, the Wii has enough of a userbase that people are buying the crap games as well.

Because that's really all there is from third parties. We have yet to get an undeniably good third party game. The story of the Wii's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties outside of Nintendo's own games. If you want games on the Wii, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.

With that mindset, then the the situation won't EVER change. You have to be LOOKING for something first before you can ever find it. If you never expect to find good third party games, then you'll never find any just as you predicted, and you'll be further marginalized, isolated, and eventually completely passed-over.

Great games don't just fall in your lap out of nowhere you know.

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

Of course consoles will always receive sh*tty ports, but where are the Wii's gems? Outside of Nintendo's own games nothing tantalizingly interesting has even been announced yet.

Gems are so-called because no one expects them to be good, and some gamers are open-minded enough to see past the conventional wisdom that pre-judges their doom. It takes effort to find gems, and if you're not putting out any effort, then it's no surprise that you haven't found any.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?

Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?

Oh, what's that? EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii? And what's this? Gamers are actually excited and liking EA's efforts in everything from God Father to SSX to My Sims because they're actually technically proficient?!?!

Whatever are we to do? ... Wait! I know what! Make our games BETTERER than EA's! Ubisoft is going to be the NUMBER ONE publisher on the Wii and we're not about to let EA catch up with us!!!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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Gems are so-called because no one expects them to be good, and some gamers are open-minded enough to see past the conventional wisdom that pre-judges their doom. It takes effort to find gems, and if you're not putting out any effort, then it's no surprise that you haven't found any.

You must have a bottomless wallet, then. I'm not poor, but at the same time I cannot afford to buy every Wii game in the hopes to find my own personal gem, and many gamers can't. You either fly blind or go by reviews. A lot of gamers rely on the hype, the stand out games that determine their next purchase. And the Wii doesn't have that stand out game yet outside of Nintendo's own offerings.

Jin had a good point. It's not always about broadening your horizons and stepping out of conventional wisdom. Sometimes it's about wise spending, and spending your hard earned money one what you KNOW(or at least have good faith) will be a good time.  

[Pittbboi]

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EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii?

Why is this such a big deal to people? I could be wrong, but hasn't EA been the bissgest third party publisher on every significant console with the exception of the Dreamcast? Them announcing this for the Wii doesn't change anything, nor does Ubisoft announcing that they're going to top them. Again, I'll believe it when I see it (or see it announced).

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?

Did you look at the charts for UbiSoft? The sales of their games are numbered in order from best to worst in terms of sales, with Red Steel (a game built for the Wii) to some of their lesser ports like Monster 4X4.

UbiSoft has been around for too long and is too big of a company to not understand this very simple fact:

PORT = LOW SALES, (~30,000 UNITS)

NEW FRANCHISE = HIGH SALES (~300,000 UNITS)

MONEY talks, and in THIS case, MONEY says that Red Steel outsold all of the shoddy ports made for the Wii, COMBINED!

So with "results like that", I think it's pretty safe to say that Ubi WILL bother to continue bringing new IPs to the Wii.

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Because that's really all there is from third parties. We have yet to get an undeniably good third party game. The story of the Wii's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties outside of Nintendo's own games. If you want games on the Wii, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.

Let's do some TIME TRAVELLING!!!!!!111!!!...shall we? Back we go to the year TWOOOO-THOUSAAAAANDDDDD...when a new console called the "Playstation 2" had just made its debut on the market.

Now watch what I'm going to do here, cause this is really special...ok?

The story of the PS2's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties. If you want games on the PS2, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.

And as we all know, the fact that the PS2 only had terrible ports and games from the previous system in its lineup destroyed its chances at ever succeeding.

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Of course consoles will always receive sh*tty ports, but where are the Wii's gems? Outside of Nintendo's own games nothing tantalizingly interesting has even been announced yet.

Sorry, no.

I enjoyed Red Steel, Super Swing Golf, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Trauma Center, Rayman, Downhill Jam and CoD3 (and probably some others I'm forgetting).

I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon.

But yeah, other than all of those games and the rest of the games that we don't even KNOW are in development yet, there's NOTHING ANNOUNCED FOR THE WII!!! THE WII IS DOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!! OMGWTFBBQ!!!

I'm sorry to be such a total prick, but I don't know how else to get through to you on this, Pit.

[Kairon]

If its a question of buying ManHunt 2 or Mario Galaxy, then why are we even argueing about this?

It's assumed that you'll buy the best games for your buck already. What we SHOULD be arguing about is how prejudices shape our gaming choices and that leads to more insular, more safe, and less "new" experiences.

And frankly, that's the exact same thinking process that third party publishers use when they make cheap and mediocre movies ports. They only go for the dependable, the predictable, the established. That's no way to make, or play, great games. They never risk, they never dare, and they end up never dreaming as well.

If you can't afford to buy a lot of risky games that's fine. But that doesn't mean the games that are beneath our budgets are beneath us.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii?

Why is this such a big deal to people? I could be wrong, but hasn't EA been the bissgest third party publisher on every significant console with the exception of the Dreamcast? Them announcing this for the Wii doesn't change anything, nor does Ubisoft announcing that they're going to top them. Again, I'll believe it when I see it (or see it announced).

It matters because Ubisoft announced their intention of beating EA and being number one FIRST. They've got a bit of a tiff going on between the two companies (I think EA tried to buy out Ubisoft sneakily or something) and this rivalry will lead to better efforts on the Wii.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother

I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon.

Well... maybe not THAT one...

(But I can't wait for Wing Island as well, I'm eager to see how a non-violent flight action game works!)

Also, just realized that Pittboi's name can be shortened to Pit, and we can all hail him as the second coming of Icarus!

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[GoldenPhoenix]

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Originally posted by: Kairon

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi

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EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii?

Why is this such a big deal to people? I could be wrong, but hasn't EA been the bissgest third party publisher on every significant console with the exception of the Dreamcast? Them announcing this for the Wii doesn't change anything, nor does Ubisoft announcing that they're going to top them. Again, I'll believe it when I see it (or see it announced).

It matters because Ubisoft announced their intention of beating EA and being number one FIRST. They've got a bit of a tiff going on between the two companies (I think EA tried to buy out Ubisoft sneakily or something) and this rivalry will lead to better efforts on the Wii.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Not to mention that EA seems to have stepped things up as well with Madden 07 and SSX Blur (which is exclusive). That to me is a great sign for 3rd party support, especially when you have dedicated team just for the Wii.

[Ian Sane]

"I enjoyed Red Steel, Super Swing Golf, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Trauma Center, Rayman, Downhill Jam and CoD3 (and probably some others I'm forgetting).

I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon."

To me that seems like a really lousy lineup of third party games.  I don't see anything in there for example that a PS3 or Xbox 360 owner would be upset that they don't get to play.  Even the big names like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are spinoffs.  I don't see anything really significant there.  Meaningful third party support is when a game is big enough that people that don't own the console are upset that they're missing out.

The Wii needs some big third party franchises to become Wii exclusive.  And this is "main" series of games, not spin-offs.  It needs to be the target console of developers that matter, that people actually care about.  EA and Ubisoft don't mean squat.  You need their support to survive but having their support is no big deal.  It's expected and normal and even the most doomed hardware (like the N-Gage) has those devs on board.  The Wii third party lineup is mostly scraps: multiplatform developers and spin-offs.

These lists of "good" games are eerily similar to such lists during the first few years of the Gamecube where weaksauce titles where being used as examples of "good" support.

When developers are talking about games made for a specific console's audience you're not getting healthy support.  They shouldn't be considering anything like that.  They should be considering ALL of their games as potential Wii games.  You never heard Konami talk about making games "specially crafted for the PS2 audience".  They didn't even talk about their support.  They just made games and 90% of the time they were on the PS2.

[Kairon]

I don't think it'll turn around 100% Ian, but give it time and it'll do about a 75% turn. The Wii will never be the perfect hardware for everybody, but it will be the closest thing this generation has to a PS2 I think.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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Let's do some TIME TRAVELLING!!!!!!111!!!...shall we? Back we go to the year TWOOOO-THOUSAAAAANDDDDD...when a new console called the "Playstation 2" had just made its debut on the market.

Now watch what I'm going to do here, cause this is really special...ok?

The story of the PS2's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties. If you want games on the PS2, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.

And as we all know, the fact that the PS2 only had terrible ports and games from the previous system in its lineup destroyed its chances at ever succeeding.

1) The PS2 was the follow-up to the massively successful PSX (and it wasn't making nearly as many mistakes as the PS3).
2) The PS2 didn't launch with any incredible games, but you'd be kidding yourself if you think one the Machine's major selling points wasn't the DVD player, or the great third party games CONFIRMED for it (some of which were released within a year's time).

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I enjoyed Red Steel, Super Swing Golf, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Trauma Center, Rayman, Downhill Jam and CoD3 (and probably some others I'm forgetting).

I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon.

Samurai Slash? Wing Island? Are you kidding??? I'm more inclined to believe that you're just listing any title that comes to mind. Besides that, none of these games are really bringing the hype. I'm certain some of them will be fun in their own special way, and I'm personally excited from Crystal Bearers and--obviously--No More Heroes, but I still have to admit that the Wii doesn't have any hype-hording titles yet. Nothing gen-defining. Where are the epic games? Where are the RPGs (besides FE. I'm talking traditional)? Where are the big budget games developed from the ground up exclusively for Wii? Where are the games that truly do things with the wiimote that I couldn't do before with a standard controller or even that crappy SIXAXIS?

Basically, I agree with Ian. As I said earlier, most of those games sound like games that are damn near ignored on other consoles because there's much better out there. These are almost the kind of games that developers count on parents to buy their kids because they don't know better.

[Kairon]

The games you want are only in like, their third month of development. Give dev some time to catch up man! I mean, they only all scrambled for dev kits last november remember? We weren't the only ones waiting in line...

The games we're seeing now are results of development that started last E3 2006, back when the hype was still small and only a few devs had jumped on the bandwagon. With projects that take anywhere from 1 year to 2 and a half to finish, and most developers only catching on last... what, December, I think you're sort of a year too early asking where the games are today.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[NWR_pap64]

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Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherI'm sorry to be such a total prick, but I don't know how else to get through to you on this, Pit.

I really hate to say this, since I respect Pittboi and Ian as people, but its pointless to argue about it.

It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.

At this rate, nothing can convince Pittboi and Ian that the Wii is getting some great support. The only thing that will change their mind is if Square released Final Fantasy XIV or Dragonquest X on the Wii, or if a third party releases one of their major franchises exclusively on the Wii.  

Besides, the Wii is doing GREATLY and the third party support is rock solid. Its not like the rants of two hard to please fans will change it all.

[Kairon]

Let's not drag god into this, lol.

The problem is that the questions being asked are VERY VALID, but their answers won't become evident until the mists of time have cleared away. Until then, impatience rules the roost and causes people to lay down edicts and mandates horribly prematurely.

We can theorize, we can predict, we can speculate on TRENDS, but anyone waiting for hard evidence one way or the other is going to have to be PATIENT.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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At this rate, nothing can convince Pittboi and Ian that the Wii is getting some great support. The only thing that will change their mind is if Square released Final Fantasy XIV or Dragonquest X on the Wii, or if a third party releases one of their major franchises exclusively on the Wii.

Not true.

1) If good games with hype and an indication that the developers were going all out to make the games amazing were announced I would be happy.
2) If developers stopped using phrases like "for the wii crowd" when announcing games I would be happy.
3) If I weren't expected to praise mediocrity I would be happy.
4) If developers stopped having to exclude online options from the Wii versions of their games because of Nintendo's crappy structure I would be happy.

Basic desires, really.  

[Kairon]

If you bought a 360 you'd be happy?

I kid! I kid!

Honestly, I'd consider almost all of your points applicable to the PS3 too at this point.

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Pittbboi]

5) If my love for Nintendo and overall belief in their philosophy above the competition's wasn't challenged whenever I criticized their execution of said philosophy I would be happy.

[Kairon]

But you've got the wrong philosophy Pittboi! /lol

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Smash_Brother]

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Originally posted by: Pittbboi 1) The PS2 was the follow-up to the massively successful PSX (and it wasn't making nearly as many mistakes as the PS3).

The PS2 didn't sell 5,000,000 units in four months while still facing hardware shortages.

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2) The PS2 didn't launch with any incredible games, but you'd be kidding yourself if you think one the Machine's major selling points wasn't the DVD player, or the great third party games CONFIRMED for it (some of which were released within a year's time).

The Wii has launched with some incredible games, and more to the point, software tie-in for the Wii is absolutely stunning, especially for a console with such a small library.

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Samurai Slash? Wing Island? Are you kidding??? I'm more inclined to believe that you're just listing any title that comes to mind.

No, I went through a list and picked out games I figured I would enjoy. I only picked what I was interested in.

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Besides that, none of these games are really bringing the hype.

Tell that to the fact that the media and Jack Thompson are already making a COLOSSAL stink about Manhunt 2.

And it's only going to get worse once a video of someone pantomiming a strangulation or gutting someone with a Wiimote shows up. Media...FRENZY.

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Where are the big budget games developed from the ground up exclusively for Wii?

They're...being...developed. Do you realize that, as we speak, there are plans for games being put into production and moving forward that have not yet seen the light of day? Rockstar nonchalantly announced Manhunt 2 and it'll be out in 6-7 months. Every day, MORE games are being announced for the Wii.

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Where are the games that truly do things with the wiimote that I couldn't do before with a wiimote or even that crappy SIXAXIS?

See, I almost told you off for the obvious fact that this is all subjective and that you'll just piss and moan about the games, saying how you don't like them and this, for some reason, makes them not count.

In that case, go buy a 360/PS3 and just stop posting on these forums, alright? The PS3 has some BIG "hype hoarding" games and, as we all know, hype ALWAYS makes games better.

So why don't you just save yourself (and us) the whining and GTFO out of the Nintendo camp already?

[Kairon]

Wait, I thought S_B was supposed to have mellowed out after finding all the Wiis he was supposed to buy for friends?

~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Pittbboi]

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Tell that to the fact that the media and Jack Thompson are already making a COLOSSAL stink about Manhunt 2.

You've really got to be kidding yourself if you believe the media and Jack Thompson are making such a huge stink about this game because of how good it's allegedly going to be and NOT just the violence and gore specifically.

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See, I almost told you off for the obvious fact that this is all subjective and that you'll just piss and moan about the games, saying how you don't like them and this, for some reason, makes them not count.

It's an opposing opinion that's all subjective. You're taking the "OMG THIS IS GREAT" angle, and I'm quite skeptical. And the fact that in most game reviews controls are still a major point of contention seem to point out that I'm not entirely wrong for thinking the wiimote has yet to truly prove itself.

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So why don't you just save yourself (and us) the whining and GTFO out of the Nintendo camp already?

Because I can still be a Nintendo fan and not kiss their ass every morning when I get out of bed. Because, as I said, as skeptical as I am of Nintendo right now I still subscribe to their gaming philosophy more than any other and the fact that I purchase their consoles and their games with my hard earned money entitles me to the right to hold them to the promises they make and the standards they set.  


Edit:

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They're...being...developed. Do you realize that, as we speak, there are plans for games being put into production and moving forward that have not yet seen the light of day? Rockstar nonchalantly announced Manhunt 2 and it'll be out in 6-7 months. Every day, MORE games are being announced for the Wii.

"They're being developed" was something I listened to with my N64 and my Gamecube...and we all see how that went. Turns out they weren't being developed.

I'm one of the few that believed Matt C when he said there were amazing games that he's seen and are coming (I seem to be in the minority on that). So I do have a measure of faith left in third parties in regards to the Wii. Patience is required, and trust me if I didn't have that I would have sold my Wii a long time ago.  Keep in mind, however, that I'm purely speaking from what we KNOW right now. Nintendo's beat the optimism out of me over the years, so I prefer to talk about the things we know are coming and the announcements that have been made. And, from where we stand now, nothing BIG seems to be in the works yet, and it's a little distressing, because Nintendo definitely needs to keep their momentum up with the Wii. I do have faith in the GDC delivering a few juicy tidbits to keep us tied over until E3, which should be a major showing for whatever else Nintendo has up their sleeve.  

[GoldenPhoenix]

I get the feeling Pittbboi whines just to whine. It seems quite clear that the Wii is starting to develop as system, but it is still only 3 months old! From what I've read about SSX Blur, the controls are unique and quite innovative, granted I'll have to try it myself but regardless this appears to be the game that couldn't be done quite as well on the SIXAXIS. Not sure why Pit says that new Wii games that control similar to old Wii games is not good enough, that is like saying games on N64 that controlled like Mario 64 were not "Unique" enough.